LGBT extremists shamelessly cause a scene at a Target store.

[Ryadn]

Not at all, as I stated in my first post in this thread, welcome to the realm of the civil union. This is no longer marriage as you have stripped away the Christian theme.

Hence, Jews, atheists, Muslims, etc. don't actually get married. And marriage isn't actually a civil institution in the US, rather than a religious one. This is all in our imagination.

Marriage is obviously a religious institution in the US, rather than a civil one. The state should not be involved in the matter of determining what 'marriage' constitutes at all (Sep. of Church and State) it should be left entirely to religious organizations.

I love it when people use the word "obviously" to mean "I have decided this is true, despite the reams of evidence to the contrary." (I still remember a hilarious moment on NSG years ago when someone kept insisting their assertion was "self-evident" when people asked for a source for it, and upon being cornered into admitting he'd just made it up, shrieked, "Well, it's self-evident to ME!")

Anyway, I could actually bother to list all the reasons why your statement of the "obvious" is pure nonsense, but let's just stick with one little simple one: Can atheists get married in the US? Can they get married outside of a church/temple/mosque/etc., with no religious authorities involved? (Hint: the answer is "yes.")

I would rather see the destruction of government recognized marriage than to see mr and mr smith.

Okay. As long as you realize that no one cares what you think.

I mean, hear, on the internets? Where people are bored and enjoy having pointless arguments with particularly unsavory brick walls? Sure, maybe someone cares what you think, at least enough to debate it. But the real world? It's going on without you, and same-sex marriage is extent and spreading, and as it's unlikely to physically kill you (unless you have a really dodgy heart and all that vitriol and anxiety puts a real strain on it), it looks like you're going to have to live with the existence of government-recognized same-sex marriage.

Have a nice day, and please, shop at the United States of America again.

[Zephie]

Then they can enter a civil union which does not tarnish the Christian traditions associated with marriage.

What of Christian gay marriages?

Homosexuality goes against the Christian teachings demonstrated in the Bible, so there should not be such a thing.

You can't dictate that for all religious organizations.

Watch me, who are you to say I can't. That is my belief and I'm going to stick with that. If a Christian denomination wants to allow gay marriages they can, but they are wrong, it is simple as that.

To you. But its still not in good taste to think that something can be dictated to all Christianity.

Well, all of Christianity should be based around the teachings in the Bible, which clearly states its opposition to homosexuality. Thus, this stance can be dictated to all of Christianity and those who oppose it are not true Christians.

Again, got no problem with that. I ain't in the business of telling people what they should or shouldn't believe. My only question is: Do you have a problem with two non-christians entering into a same-sex marriage?

Not at all, as I stated in my first post in this thread, welcome to the realm of the civil union. This is no longer marriage as you have stripped away the Christian theme.

Then the government should stop calling it marriage, and only offer civil unions, while only religious institutions can offer marriages.

I could live with that. The problem with having SOME people having marriages and the others civil unions is primarily a social one, provided they're equal under the law.

Equal Protection Clause for ya.

Gays have equal rights, what don't you understand about that? Because a gay wants to "marry" another gay and can't, does not mean they are being discriminated against. I want to marry my pet hamster, but I can't, and I have accepted that.

Laws made to suit one group are not equal, even if enforced equally to all. If the laws are tailored only to the needs of group A and do not take into account the needs of group B, then they are unjust to group B. This is not a difficult concept.

"Gays" isn't a group. It's made up. Marriage is one man and one women, but people want to change society to fit their homosexual culture into it. Something a lot of people don't want.

Yeah, gays are a group. They exist. They have a distinguishing feature that makes them identifiable as a group. That's a group. How would gay marriage effect you, personally?

It's something I don't want to be promoted and spread throughout my society.

Why? How would it effect you? What horrible thing would happen? Stop indulging in tautology and tell us why it's so awful.

I don't want my children growing up in a culture that tells them it's okay to be a homosexual. Because contrary to popular belief, you don't have to be "born" gay to be gay.

Really? You think you can choose to be gay? Have you ever tried to be gay? Have you ever tried to feel sexually attracted to another man? That's some tremendous control over your id you've got there- actions you can control, but the urge? You can't just conjure that up. So, what horrible thing would happen if your kids weren't homophobic?

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

[Blouman Empire]

Yeah, gays are a group. They exist. They have a distinguishing feature that makes them identifiable as a group. That's a group. How would gay marriage effect you, personally?

I'm curious what distinguishing feature does a gay have that you know they are one?

[The Black Forrest]

Clearly. Too bad they're dead wrong.

Wrong about their opinion?

What's right about their opinion?

Why is yours right?

Ok. You answer the question and we can go from there......

[The Black Forrest]

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

Sounds more like you are afraid of them.

So how do gay people turn hetros gay?

[Blouman Empire]

Clearly. Too bad they're dead wrong.

Wrong about their opinion?

What's right about their opinion?

Why is yours right?

Ok. You answer the question and we can go from there......

What opinion are we talking about?

[Gun Manufacturers]

The AFA does the same thing.

So? Does that justify the LGBT people being obnoxious, yelling profanities at shoppers in a store, saying they are fueling hatred and discrimination?

No, the first Amendment does that.

Maybe on public property, but Target is private property.

Which is open to public access. They can withdraw your right to be there, but they can't force you to shut up.

Target's solicitation policy is very easy to find on the internet, and it clearly says that Target does not allow solicitation or petitioning at their stores (this group was engaging in both). This group planned this out, and intentionally broke Target's policies. They weren't justified in being obnoxious, yelling profanities at shoppers in a store, and/or saying they are fueling hatred and discrimination.

Target's policies are irrelevant. Justification is irrelevant. What they did remains legal, and that's the only important aspect. Well, that and whether they got their point across.

Target's policies are NOT irrelevant, since the store is private property. It's not legal to create a disturbance, harass people, film/photograph people against their stated wishes, or solicit in a place where solicitation isn't allowed.

The public disturbance is refusing to leave when asked or when in violation of said company policies. Thats when it becomes such.

Exactly. The protesters were in violation of Target's solicitation policy (which is easily accessible on the internet), so can we finally agree that they created a disturbance in the store?

That was the point. It's a protest. And a legal one.

Creating a disturbance on private property is now legal?

Yes. With the proviso that it must be publically accessible private property, such as a store or other freely available area. The only time the law gets involved is if the creators of the disturbance are asked to leave, and refuse.

But but but---PRIVATE PROPERTY! Don't you understand the sacred significance of those words? This nation wasn't built on ideas of equity under the law, it was built on PRIVATE PROPERTY! No-holds-barred if you own the land! A = A! What don't you get??

The first amendment doesn't trump the fourth amendment. You can protest all you want on public property (provided you obtain any needed permits), and if this group did that, it would be better received by me. You can't just walk into a store though, and intentionally create a disturbance.

[The Black Forrest]

Yeah, gays are a group. They exist. They have a distinguishing feature that makes them identifiable as a group. That's a group. How would gay marriage effect you, personally?

I'm curious what distinguishing feature does a gay have that you know they are one?

What is the distinguishing feature a hetro has to know they are one?

[Zephie]

Okay. As long as you realize that no one cares what you think.

I mean, hearhere, on the internets? Where people are bored and enjoy having pointless arguments with particularly unsavory brick walls? Sure, maybe someone cares what you think, at least enough to debate it. But the real world? It's going on without you, and same-sex marriage is extent and spreading, and as it's unlikely to physically kill you (unless you have a really dodgy heart and all that vitriol and anxiety puts a real strain on it), it looks like you're going to have to live with the existence of government-recognized same-sex marriage.

Have a nice day, and please, shop at the United States of America again.

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

[Blouman Empire]

Yeah, gays are a group. They exist. They have a distinguishing feature that makes them identifiable as a group. That's a group. How would gay marriage effect you, personally?

I'm curious what distinguishing feature does a gay have that you know they are one?

What is the distinguishing feature a hetro has to know they are one?

That's exactly my point.

Well done for figuring that out on your own.

[The Black Forrest]

Clearly. Too bad they're dead wrong.

Wrong about their opinion?

What's right about their opinion?

Why is yours right?

Ok. You answer the question and we can go from there......

What opinion are we talking about?

Oh. I was trying to get a clarification from Zephies comment.

[Zephie]

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

Sounds more like you are afraid of them.

So how do gay people turn hetros gay?

I'm not sure exactly, but I know promoting it doesn't help. You can observe this in all the school children who now say they are gay or "bisexual."

[Sith Korriban]

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

And if any of your kids are born gay you'll what, force them into a life of misery as they desperately suppress their natural orientation to try to please their bigoted family?
Or will you just kill them for daring to shame you?

[The Norwegian Blue]

Also, to Zephie... please just stop already. Logic doesn't like being raped to death with a chainsaw. Which is the equivalent, I feel, of the blatant illogic in your arguments.

They're pretty entertaining, though. I mean, when someone's actual argument appears to be, "Gay people are fictional, because they have a 'lifestyle,' and therefore gay marriage has no purpose, and it's hypocritical to support gay marriage without also being against gay marriage, and furthermore I want to marry a hamster," how can you do anything but laugh?

[The Black Forrest]

Okay. As long as you realize that no one cares what you think.

I mean, hearhere, on the internets? Where people are bored and enjoy having pointless arguments with particularly unsavory brick walls? Sure, maybe someone cares what you think, at least enough to debate it. But the real world? It's going on without you, and same-sex marriage is extent and spreading, and as it's unlikely to physically kill you (unless you have a really dodgy heart and all that vitriol and anxiety puts a real strain on it), it looks like you're going to have to live with the existence of government-recognized same-sex marriage.

Have a nice day, and please, shop at the United States of America again.

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

You have children?

[Rolling squid]

Okay. As long as you realize that no one cares what you think.

I mean, hearhere, on the internets? Where people are bored and enjoy having pointless arguments with particularly unsavory brick walls? Sure, maybe someone cares what you think, at least enough to debate it. But the real world? It's going on without you, and same-sex marriage is extent and spreading, and as it's unlikely to physically kill you (unless you have a really dodgy heart and all that vitriol and anxiety puts a real strain on it), it looks like you're going to have to live with the existence of government-recognized same-sex marriage.

Have a nice day, and please, shop at the United States of America again.

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

Have fun doing that. You can send them the same place the kkk sends their children so they don't have to see the darkies.

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

Sounds more like you are afraid of them.

So how do gay people turn hetros gay?

I'm not sure exactly, but I know promoting it doesn't help. You can observe this in all the school children who now say they are gay or "bisexual."

Why did you put bisexual in quotes?

[DaWoad]

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

Sounds more like you are afraid of them.

So how do gay people turn hetros gay?

By biting them of course, Haven't you read twilight? [/sarcasm]

[Zephie]

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

And if any of your kids are born gay you'll what, force them into a life of misery as they desperately suppress their natural orientation to try to please their bigoted family?
Or will you just kill them for daring to shame you?

I'm not worried about that, because I am certain people aren't born gay, unless they have a genetic defect that can cause it, but no one in my ancestry is gay, so I think I'm pretty safe.

[Sith Korriban]

You have children?

I think he's gonna have to wait a decade or two to be ready for that...

[Zephie]

Okay. As long as you realize that no one cares what you think.

I mean, hearhere, on the internets? Where people are bored and enjoy having pointless arguments with particularly unsavory brick walls? Sure, maybe someone cares what you think, at least enough to debate it. But the real world? It's going on without you, and same-sex marriage is extent and spreading, and as it's unlikely to physically kill you (unless you have a really dodgy heart and all that vitriol and anxiety puts a real strain on it), it looks like you're going to have to live with the existence of government-recognized same-sex marriage.

Have a nice day, and please, shop at the United States of America again.

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

Have fun doing that. You can send them the same place the kkk sends their children so they don't have to see the darkies.

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

Sounds more like you are afraid of them.

So how do gay people turn hetros gay?

I'm not sure exactly, but I know promoting it doesn't help. You can observe this in all the school children who now say they are gay or "bisexual."

Why did you put bisexual in quotes?

Good point, I don't want my children exposed to the lower class urban culture either.

Okay. As long as you realize that no one cares what you think.

I mean, hearhere, on the internets? Where people are bored and enjoy having pointless arguments with particularly unsavory brick walls? Sure, maybe someone cares what you think, at least enough to debate it. But the real world? It's going on without you, and same-sex marriage is extent and spreading, and as it's unlikely to physically kill you (unless you have a really dodgy heart and all that vitriol and anxiety puts a real strain on it), it looks like you're going to have to live with the existence of government-recognized same-sex marriage.

Have a nice day, and please, shop at the United States of America again.

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

You have children?

Not yet.

[DaWoad]

Also, to Zephie... please just stop already. Logic doesn't like being raped to death with a chainsaw. Which is the equivalent, I feel, of the blatant illogic in your arguments.

They're pretty entertaining, though. I mean, when someone's actual argument appears to be, "Gay people are fictional, because they have a 'lifestyle,' and therefore gay marriage has no purpose, and it's hypocritical to support gay marriage without also being against gay marriage, and furthermore I want to marry a hamster," how can you do anything but laugh?

well it's either that or cry

[The Black Forrest]

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

Sounds more like you are afraid of them.

So how do gay people turn hetros gay?

I'm not sure exactly, but I know promoting it doesn't help. You can observe this in all the school children who now say they are gay or "bisexual."

So where exactly or should I say when does this "promoting" happen?

My kid is in the 4th grade and there hasn't been any such efforts yet......

[The Cat-Tribe]

...and uploads it onto youtube.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v1inmoke ... re=popular

I want to know if other LGBT people find their actions are justified, or ashamed a group of people that tries to represent them acted so immaturely. They are angry Target apparently donated 150,000 dollars to the campaign of somebody that doesn't support gay marriage, so their argument is you're hate-filled and discriminate if you don't support the special treatment of LGBT. They call target bigoted, but in the description, the videomaker writes "Call Target CEO Gregg Steinhafel at 612-696-6234 and DEMAND they get the $150,000 back or donate $150,000 to queer youth or transgender services!"
That sounds bigoted to me, them supporting the special treatment of LGBT.

Note: I know that I come relatively late to this thread and I probably am repreating what has already been said ad naseum. I don't care. Some things can't be said too many times.

1. Advocating for same-sex marriage is NOT advocating for "special treatment." It is advocating for (1) a basic civil right guaranteed to all consenting adults by the U.S. Constitution (and the Universal Declaration of Human Rights) and (2) equal protection under the law.

2. Political action & protest (especially for civil rights) is not inherently shameful, immature, or bigotted. One might quibble with the particular methods used here. I think they were humorous. They probably crossed over into illegal activity (as protests often do) and the participants could have been arrested. But that no more makes the protest illegimate than many anti-abortion protests, anti-war protests, many of the most important events of the Civil Rights Movement, etc, etc, etc ....

3. As SCOTUS has made clear (whether one agrees or not) campaign contributions are public, political speech and may legitimately be countered by (1) opposing or critical speech and/or (2) demands for different contributions. Again, nothing shameful, immature, discriminatory, or bigotted about it.

4. The activists are entirely justified in linking opposition to same-sex marriage with discrimination and bigotry. The denial of marriage to same-sex couples is inherently discriminatory. That isn't even arguable. Further, as explained in copious threads and 2 recent federal court decisions, this discrimination isn't based on any legitimate state interest or valid rational argument. Instead, it is highly correlated with and usually motivated by hatred, loathing, fear, and/or bigotry against homosexuals.

5. If anything is shameful, immature, or bigotted, it is the arguments & characterizations made by the OP.

[DaWoad]

Okay. As long as you realize that no one cares what you think.

I mean, hearhere, on the internets? Where people are bored and enjoy having pointless arguments with particularly unsavory brick walls? Sure, maybe someone cares what you think, at least enough to debate it. But the real world? It's going on without you, and same-sex marriage is extent and spreading, and as it's unlikely to physically kill you (unless you have a really dodgy heart and all that vitriol and anxiety puts a real strain on it), it looks like you're going to have to live with the existence of government-recognized same-sex marriage.

Have a nice day, and please, shop at the United States of America again.

That's very arrogant to say it's going to spread and that I have to live with it. I will just not send my children to public school then if they are going to teach them it's okay to be homosexual.

Have fun doing that. You can send them the same place the kkk sends their children so they don't have to see the darkies.

I don't hate homosexuals. That would be like saying I hate autistic children, that's mean. I just don't agree with their culture, and I will not willingly accept them spreading that culture around and telling everyone it's okay to turn gay.

Sounds more like you are afraid of them.

So how do gay people turn hetros gay?

I'm not sure exactly, but I know promoting it doesn't help. You can observe this in all the school children who now say they are gay or "bisexual."

Why did you put bisexual in quotes?

Good point, I don't want my children exposed to the lower class urban culture either.

anybody else smell a troll here now? I mean this can't possibly be serious can it?

[Sith Korriban]

I'm not worried about that, because I am certain people aren't born gay, unless they have a genetic defect that can cause it, but no one in my ancestry is gay, so I think I'm pretty safe.

You are so incredibly wrong that it's hilarious. Lrn2science.