NationStates

KludgeMUSH wrote:Neither compassion nor revenge make a sound basis for a system of justice, although revenge is certainly better. The main purpose of a justice system should be to make sure that it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do this is through the death penalty, which has a proven track record of being 100% effective at preventing recidivism.

and 0% effective as a detterent

Curly toenails wrote:

KludgeMUSH wrote:Neither compassion nor revenge make a sound basis for a system of justice, although revenge is certainly better. The main purpose of a justice system should be to make sure that it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do this is through the death penalty, which has a proven track record of being 100% effective at preventing recidivism.

and 0% effective as a detterent

So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Overherelandistan wrote:

Curly toenails wrote:

KludgeMUSH wrote:Neither compassion nor revenge make a sound basis for a system of justice, although revenge is certainly better. The main purpose of a justice system should be to make sure that it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do this is through the death penalty, which has a proven track record of being 100% effective at preventing recidivism.

and 0% effective as a detterent

So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

No it does not. It just means that if innocent people are tried guilty they cant be released because they died

Overherelandistan wrote: So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Murders still happen in countries with the death penalty, so no it doesn't stop a lot of people.

Sremski okrug wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Curly toenails wrote:

KludgeMUSH wrote:Neither compassion nor revenge make a sound basis for a system of justice, although revenge is certainly better. The main purpose of a justice system should be to make sure that it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do this is through the death penalty, which has a proven track record of being 100% effective at preventing recidivism.

and 0% effective as a detterent

So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

No it does not. It just means that if innocent people are tried guilty they cant be released because they died

Ok. First: get real, capatal punishment is a GREAT deterrent, I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse, Second: there is a reason we have something calleda judicial system and that is TO PUNISH THE RIGHT PERSON. You seem to be basing this on some myth that there can be enough evidense to commit the wrong person without someone trying. How about you look in some record and find how many people were released after being found no-guilty after first being found guilty.

Overherelandistan wrote:

Curly toenails wrote:

KludgeMUSH wrote:Neither compassion nor revenge make a sound basis for a system of justice, although revenge is certainly better. The main purpose of a justice system should be to make sure that it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do this is through the death penalty, which has a proven track record of being 100% effective at preventing recidivism.

and 0% effective as a detterent

So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

No, because someone who is going to rape/murder does not think about the consequences. There is a level of punishment above which there is no effect, imo.

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Murders still happen in countries with the death penalty, so no it doesn't stop a lot of people.

How about this. Lets get rid of the death penalty in America for a while and see what happens. Do you think crime will go up, down, or stay the same?
There is only one right answer. Oh and that whole thing about crimes are only affective above a certain point is laughable. How many murders happened under the iron fist of a lord of the manor during the middle ages? Im not endorsing that Im just pointing it out.

Ok, for the whole Death Penalty arguement, may I suggest people watch this show ---> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l3t05T28L6o&feature=PlayList&p=79ED544EA9FA1597&index=0&playnext=1

I'm not saying "agree with this or else", but I ask you give it a look and share your opinions of it.

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Murders still happen in countries with the death penalty, so no it doesn't stop a lot of people.

How about this. Lets get rid of the death penalty in America for a while and see what happens. Do you think crime will go up, down, or stay the same?
There is only one right answer. Oh and that whole thing about crimes are only affective above a certain point is laughable. How many murders happened under the iron fist of a lord of the manor during the middle ages? Im not endorsing that Im just pointing it out.

Overherelandistan wrote: I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse

Priceless

Overherelandistan wrote:

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Murders still happen in countries with the death penalty, so no it doesn't stop a lot of people.

How about this. Lets get rid of the death penalty in America for a while and see what happens. Do you think crime will go up, down, or stay the same?
There is only one right answer. Oh and that whole thing about crimes are only affective above a certain point is laughable. How many murders happened under the iron fist of a lord of the manor during the middle ages? Im not endorsing that Im just pointing it out.

You're right because you're right I suppose? No actual facts to back you up, you just know it, right?

And I think you misunderstood. I'm saying "life imprisonment" is just as effective as the death penalty, because anyone who would commit a crime with the possible consequence of life imprisonment is not thinking about the consequences at all. You see, a serial killer doesn't think "but what if I get caught?". Someone who kills in a fit of rage does not think "but what if I get caught". People who murder do not think "but what if I get caught" in almost all cases.

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse

Priceless

Can you? Sure if you started killing the whole familly or nukeing the town of a murderer it would work even better. Maybe not on everyone but...

Overherelandistan wrote:

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse

Priceless

Can you? Sure if you started killing the whole familly or nukeing the town of a murderer it would work even better. Maybe not on everyone but...

No, again, it wouldn't.

Person012345 wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Murders still happen in countries with the death penalty, so no it doesn't stop a lot of people.

How about this. Lets get rid of the death penalty in America for a while and see what happens. Do you think crime will go up, down, or stay the same?
There is only one right answer. Oh and that whole thing about crimes are only affective above a certain point is laughable. How many murders happened under the iron fist of a lord of the manor during the middle ages? Im not endorsing that Im just pointing it out.

You're right because you're right I suppose? No actual facts to back you up, you just know it, right?

And I think you misunderstood. I'm saying "life imprisonment" is just as effective as the death penalty, because anyone who would commit a crime with the possible consequence of life imprisonment is not thinking about the consequences at all. You see, a serial killer doesn't think "but what if I get caught?". Someone who kills in a fit of rage does not think "but what if I get caught". People who murder do not think "but what if I get caught" in almost all cases.

So now all murders are in a fit of rage or by serial killers eh. Well I suppose your right because your right. Right!

Overherelandistan wrote:

Person012345 wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Murders still happen in countries with the death penalty, so no it doesn't stop a lot of people.

How about this. Lets get rid of the death penalty in America for a while and see what happens. Do you think crime will go up, down, or stay the same?
There is only one right answer. Oh and that whole thing about crimes are only affective above a certain point is laughable. How many murders happened under the iron fist of a lord of the manor during the middle ages? Im not endorsing that Im just pointing it out.

You're right because you're right I suppose? No actual facts to back you up, you just know it, right?

And I think you misunderstood. I'm saying "life imprisonment" is just as effective as the death penalty, because anyone who would commit a crime with the possible consequence of life imprisonment is not thinking about the consequences at all. You see, a serial killer doesn't think "but what if I get caught?". Someone who kills in a fit of rage does not think "but what if I get caught". People who murder do not think "but what if I get caught" in almost all cases.

So now all murders are in a fit of rage or by serial killers eh. Well I suppose your right because your right. Right!

and pre-mediated murderers dont care if they are killed, some see it as becoming a martyr. Life in prison is a much tougher punishment.

Person012345 wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse

Priceless

Can you? Sure if you started killing the whole familly or nukeing the town of a murderer it would work even better. Maybe not on everyone but...

No, again, it wouldn't.

If the point is to completely stop all crimes ther is only one anwser. HAVE NO LAWS! Yay! Hey, the crime rate will be ZERO!
Ok, this is my last post for a while so feel free to miss-use and twist and take my words out of context.Goodby

Overherelandistan wrote:How about this. Lets get rid of the death penalty in America for a while and see what happens. Do you think crime will go up, down, or stay the same?

It would probably rise on the short term due to publicity but in the long term, it will revert to its previous level.

Overherelandistan wrote:

Sremski okrug wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Curly toenails wrote:

KludgeMUSH wrote:Neither compassion nor revenge make a sound basis for a system of justice, although revenge is certainly better. The main purpose of a justice system should be to make sure that it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do this is through the death penalty, which has a proven track record of being 100% effective at preventing recidivism.

and 0% effective as a detterent

So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

No it does not. It just means that if innocent people are tried guilty they cant be released because they died

Ok. First: get real, capatal punishment is a GREAT deterrent, I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse, Second: there is a reason we have something calleda judicial system and that is TO PUNISH THE RIGHT PERSON. You seem to be basing this on some myth that there can be enough evidense to commit the wrong person without someone trying. How about you look in some record and find how many people were released after being found no-guilty after first being found guilty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRopfgfN ... playnext=3 - Man speant 5 years on death row and he was innocent. Since 1973, 121 people conficted of murder, were released from death row because they were declared innocent or their charges were dropped.

Overherelandistan wrote:

Person012345 wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse

Priceless

Can you? Sure if you started killing the whole familly or nukeing the town of a murderer it would work even better. Maybe not on everyone but...

No, again, it wouldn't.

If the point is to completely stop all crimes ther is only one anwser. HAVE NO LAWS! Yay! Hey, the crime rate will be ZERO!
Ok, this is my last post for a while so feel free to miss-use and twist and take my words out of context.Goodby

So you know I'm not entirely anti-death penalty. I see that it has benefits in eliminating recidivism. Though I think the risk to innocents is too great to actually advocate it. I'm just telling you that you're wrong that "the worse the punishment the more effective the deterrent". It's simply not the case. A much better deterrent to crime is having high capture rates etc. I suppose it makes people more likely to think about "what if I get caught" because it's more likely to happen.

Greater Americania wrote:

Moppelkatze wrote:More Scots per head died than Yanks.

Hmm, I really don't care. If he would have pulled that crap here in Texas, he would have been executed like he should have been and this sort of horrendous blunder would never have occurred in the first place. Why must Europe be so backwards?

In 2005 Scotland had a murder rate of 2.33 per 100,000 people, the second highest in Europe at the time. In the same year, Texas had a murder rate of 6.2 per 100,000. Those backwards Europeans.

Ifreann wrote:

Greater Americania wrote:

Moppelkatze wrote:More Scots per head died than Yanks.

Hmm, I really don't care. If he would have pulled that crap here in Texas, he would have been executed like he should have been and this sort of horrendous blunder would never have occurred in the first place. Why must Europe be so backwards?

In 2005 Scotland had a murder rate of 2.33 per 100,000 people, the second highest in Europe at the time. In the same year, Texas had a murder rate of 6.2 per 100,000. Those backwards Europeans.

Don't bring hard evidence into this. It makes an argument formed on a basis of ignorance look unfounded and ill-thought out.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/au ... -lockerbie <-- this might be why people are pissed off.

We understand Scots Law. Wee just happen to think in this case it was wrong -- and surprise, a lot of people in Great Britain think so as well.

Narkaya wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Sremski okrug wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Curly toenails wrote:

KludgeMUSH wrote:Neither compassion nor revenge make a sound basis for a system of justice, although revenge is certainly better. The main purpose of a justice system should be to make sure that it doesn't happen again, and the best way to do this is through the death penalty, which has a proven track record of being 100% effective at preventing recidivism.

and 0% effective as a detterent

So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

No it does not. It just means that if innocent people are tried guilty they cant be released because they died

Ok. First: get real, capatal punishment is a GREAT deterrent, I chalange you to find a better one that isnt even worse, Second: there is a reason we have something calleda judicial system and that is TO PUNISH THE RIGHT PERSON. You seem to be basing this on some myth that there can be enough evidense to commit the wrong person without someone trying. How about you look in some record and find how many people were released after being found no-guilty after first being found guilty.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oRopfgfN ... playnext=3 - Man speant 5 years on death row and he was innocent. Since 1973, 121 people conficted of murder, were released from death row because they were declared innocent or their charges were dropped.

Charges being dropped dosnt mean they're inocent, and 121 are released of...how many convicted?

Overherelandistan wrote:Charges being dropped dosnt mean they're inocent, and 121 are released of...how many convicted?

The point is that since the judicial system is imperfect, innocent people will eventually be executed.

Sremski okrug wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Person012345 wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote:

Rambhutan wrote:

Overherelandistan wrote: So the idea of-hey if I rape that girl or murder that guy, i will be killed-dosnt stop poeple from doing it. You have got to be kidding!

Murders still happen in countries with the death penalty, so no it doesn't stop a lot of people.

How about this. Lets get rid of the death penalty in America for a while and see what happens. Do you think crime will go up, down, or stay the same?
There is only one right answer. Oh and that whole thing about crimes are only affective above a certain point is laughable. How many murders happened under the iron fist of a lord of the manor during the middle ages? Im not endorsing that Im just pointing it out.

You're right because you're right I suppose? No actual facts to back you up, you just know it, right?

And I think you misunderstood. I'm saying "life imprisonment" is just as effective as the death penalty, because anyone who would commit a crime with the possible consequence of life imprisonment is not thinking about the consequences at all. You see, a serial killer doesn't think "but what if I get caught?". Someone who kills in a fit of rage does not think "but what if I get caught". People who murder do not think "but what if I get caught" in almost all cases.

So now all murders are in a fit of rage or by serial killers eh. Well I suppose your right because your right. Right!

and pre-mediated murderers dont care if they are killed, some see it as becoming a martyr. Life in prison is a much tougher punishment.

Life in prison is like infinite school.. only no teaching...
They get recess to go out with their murderer friends and chill in the courtyard, maybe play a few rounds of hoops. They get lunch to again chill with other like-minded psychopaths to they can develop a friendship that will last till they get our or the entirety of prison life. If they're lucky they can plan a riot and screw up the prison causing priceless damages.... The prison system is outdated and modernly inappropriate. Murderers are not children to be made to sit in the naughty chair (prison cell) for 10 minutes (ten years) until they've "learned their lesson" (even though there's no proof of that). The point is, it's bull shit.
A good system is where all criminals are sent to a Working Camp with VERY little food (in fact, some may only be fed by being given resources to make a fire and throwing rabbits into the camp). Make them work constantly (the main system being they can choose to become indentured servants, or essentially slaves, and work for a business or government project for no pay but better conditions than in the working camp (helps the economy, maybe even creating a surplus with the criminal system instead of a debt). Once someone's time is up, they are not simply set free into society, they go through re-education, to harshly teach what they should have learned, if they don't pass, they have to carry out their sentence a whole second time. Parts of the re-education should include drills through obstacle courses and teaching how to be an appropriate citizen. Some criminals may even wish to join the armed forces after their whole ordeal... which would be offered in re-education almost even as an incentive to pay their debts further. This harsh, appropriate, and logical system is the answer to handling criminals... not the outdated and piss-poor prison system we follow today...