Germany, and much of the Euro Area laugh at the USA's growth

[Arkinesia]

They can grow at that rate for decades and not match the US economically...

True, but wouldn't you like to be out of a recession?

Eh, the recession has its perks.

Like what? Making the Repubs more unpopular?

Making gas not cost $4/gallon is pretty fucking pro.

[New Dracora]

The Economist
http://economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/08/europes_economies?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/turbocharged
BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10962017
Well, they may as well given recent figures. Except Portugal, Spain and especially Greece...

What's that America? A group of countries with large spending on universal healthcare and welfare policies are growing much faster economically post-recession than you? *dances*

Australia doesn't care and neither do our Chinese masters.


Good troll thread though. 'bout a 7 out of 10.

[Ad Nihilo]

Hmm... I'm not too sure about this. The Chinese government have a very strong control on capital flows, and have even moved to curb dangerous tendencies well in advance (hence their targeted growth level this year is 8%, rather than the over 10% that would have otherwise occurred). It kind of helps that they do not need to pander to a GDP obsessed electorate like we have here in the West (where, as this thread suggests, the GDP figures of your country make your e-penis larger in an exponential manner). And of course, the other thing the Chinese have is an awareness of their own problems, the political will to tackle them and the bureaucratic capacity to do so.

China in some ways is even more obsessed with GDP growth than we are; the massive shifts in their population require them to sustain a very high growth rate to absorb workers and prevent unemployment from increasing. Another big problem is that Chinese economic statistics are unreliable, so we're not really sure how bad things are; ironically, unlike the Soviet Union they have an incentive to under-report growth at the local level due to the political windfalls of allowing investment to spiral out of control, even if there are long-term consequences. The amount of control they really have over their economy is increasingly limited.

The insane rates of property appreciation and increases in credit is a classic example of an asset bubble building. Whether their efforts to control the economy will succeed is uncertain.

Well not necessarily. The appreciation of property values does seem to have a fairly reasonable underlying cause (the massive populations shifts you were mentioning, and the increasing wealth of the Chinese middle classes), unlike it did in the west, where it was underlined by excessive amounts of credit available from Chinese savings. But, yes, the whole statistics issue is quite complicated. For one thing, they are not always as useful or meaningful as we take them to be, and on the other, there is very little transparency in how the Chinese approach the issue. So I suppose this is all quite speculative, and we'll just have to wait and see what happens.

[Ad Nihilo]

Hmm... I'm not too sure about this. The Chinese government have a very strong control on capital flows, and have even moved to curb dangerous tendencies well in advance (hence their targeted growth level this year is 8%, rather than the over 10% that would have otherwise occurred). It kind of helps that they do not need to pander to a GDP obsessed electorate like we have here in the West (where, as this thread suggests, the GDP figures of your country make your e-penis larger in an exponential manner). And of course, the other thing the Chinese have is an awareness of their own problems, the political will to tackle them and the bureaucratic capacity to do so.

China in some ways is even more obsessed with GDP growth than we are; the massive shifts in their population require them to sustain a very high growth rate to absorb workers and prevent unemployment from increasing. Another big problem is that Chinese economic statistics are unreliable, so we're not really sure how bad things are; ironically, unlike the Soviet Union they have an incentive to under-report growth at the local level due to the political windfalls of allowing investment to spiral out of control, even if there are long-term consequences. The amount of control they really have over their economy is increasingly limited.

The insane rates of property appreciation and increases in credit is a classic example of an asset bubble building. Whether their efforts to control the economy will succeed is uncertain.

I think, in the end, the Chinese Government values it's control over the nation far more than it values the prosperity of the nation. If it comes to a point where they have the choice to either give up control or wreck the economy to maintain it, they will more than likely maintain control.

I also have a feeling it is a house of cards. There is a lot of illegal economic activity in China, quality control is horrible, the Chinese people are savers that rarely spend much money on goods (like they can afford them...), the economy is dependent upon the dollar and the US economy, and planned economies always fail. In the eighties, everyone believed Japan was going to take over the world. But then, they tanked in the nineties. I think China will be no different.

You wish to indicate Japan as an example of how planned economies always fail?

First thing's first. Both China and Japan are dirigisme economies, not planned economies. There is a huge difference.

And second, the Japanese miracle came to a halt because of an asset price bubble. So quite arguably, because of a lack of necessary regulation, rather than excessive government intervention.

And third, to this day, 2 lost decades later, the average Japanese person is quite well off, and there is no rampant unemployment. Do you think an economy like the US can ever achieve such low unemployment over two decades of barely any growth?

[EvilDarkMagicians]

And you can't compare a political organization to a nation.

Because that's what I said.

[Conservative Alliances]

Hmm... I'm not too sure about this. The Chinese government have a very strong control on capital flows, and have even moved to curb dangerous tendencies well in advance (hence their targeted growth level this year is 8%, rather than the over 10% that would have otherwise occurred). It kind of helps that they do not need to pander to a GDP obsessed electorate like we have here in the West (where, as this thread suggests, the GDP figures of your country make your e-penis larger in an exponential manner). And of course, the other thing the Chinese have is an awareness of their own problems, the political will to tackle them and the bureaucratic capacity to do so.

China in some ways is even more obsessed with GDP growth than we are; the massive shifts in their population require them to sustain a very high growth rate to absorb workers and prevent unemployment from increasing. Another big problem is that Chinese economic statistics are unreliable, so we're not really sure how bad things are; ironically, unlike the Soviet Union they have an incentive to under-report growth at the local level due to the political windfalls of allowing investment to spiral out of control, even if there are long-term consequences. The amount of control they really have over their economy is increasingly limited.

The insane rates of property appreciation and increases in credit is a classic example of an asset bubble building. Whether their efforts to control the economy will succeed is uncertain.

I think, in the end, the Chinese Government values it's control over the nation far more than it values the prosperity of the nation. If it comes to a point where they have the choice to either give up control or wreck the economy to maintain it, they will more than likely maintain control.

I also have a feeling it is a house of cards. There is a lot of illegal economic activity in China, quality control is horrible, the Chinese people are savers that rarely spend much money on goods (like they can afford them...), the economy is dependent upon the dollar and the US economy, and planned economies always fail. In the eighties, everyone believed Japan was going to take over the world. But then, they tanked in the nineties. I think China will be no different.

You wish to indicate Japan as an example of how planned economies always fail?

First thing's first. Both China and Japan are dirigisme economies, not planned economies. There is a huge difference.

And second, the Japanese miracle came to a halt because of an asset price bubble. So quite arguably, because of a lack of necessary regulation, rather than excessive government intervention.

And third, to this day, 2 lost decades later, the average Japanese person is quite well off, and there is no rampant unemployment. Do you think an economy like the US can ever achieve such low unemployment over two decades of barely any growth?

I did not say that Japan and China have similar economic practices or that Japan has a planned economy, only that the panic about their economic strength at their respective high points was similar. And China does have a planned economy because it still plans the macroeconomic practices of the country, it just isn't as extreme as it was before '78 or even the nineties. 90% of the Chinese billionaires have direct connections to the communist party and the government still has a heavy hand in the economic practices despite being officially market driven. Like an earlier poster said, they are going to have to make a choice between control and strength sometime soon. You can hardly say that Japan is well off since they still have not solved the horrible deflation from the nineties. Deflation and inflation is far more important to control than unemployment.

[Ad Nihilo]

I really don't see what deflation or inflation or so on have to do with standard of living. And the reason why Japan is always under the looming threat of deflation is because they are in an exercise of controlled unwinding of that asset bubble from '89, not because of any underlying economic impotence. And it surely is the right approach to the matter, even if it means marginal decreases in living standards every year on the average person for as long as the bubble needs to unwind, while maintaining their current socio-economic status quo, rather than brutalise their economy with some good old Western, let it go bust and try again and don't worry about 10-20% structural unemployment.

Also, almost every country in the world has some degree of macroeconomic planning. Doesn't really make it a planned economy in and of itself.

And of course very many of the richest Chinese businesspeople are somehow linked to the Chinese government. That's what happened in literally every post-communist country with liberalisation, because the people in power get to decide which way they privatise industry and it will usually be towards people they are connected with. I don't really see the relevance of the issue though, and I can't quite see how it would have been otherwise.

As for the choice between growth and control, I'm also very sceptical. That opinion is based on the assumption that the larger and more affluent the middle classes in ANY country, the more they will want political rights and democracy, so authoritarian regimes have an incentive to keep their populations poor and uneducated. But that's just American liberal folklore. Japan has one of the most liberal constitutions in the world, as it was imposed on it by the US after WWII, but it has remained hugely conservative, and people genuinely don't get worked up about democracy or elections. They only care about economic management. Indeed, since 1945, the liberal party there has lost only two elections. Not to mention that the parties don't differ that much on policy. Oh and of course, both parties are dominated by much the same political dynasties that dominated in the Meiji era. The other glaring example is Singapore, which ranks as one of the least democratic countries in the world, despite being richer than the US in terms of GDP-ppp/capita, and having a significant proportion of their citizens being immigrants from more liberal countries.

[SaintB]

They can grow at that rate for decades and not match the US economically...

The EU already is a greater economic force than the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

IMF GDP estimates 2009
EU: 16.4trl USD
USA: 14.2trl USD

Given the enlargement of the EU into eastern Europe, strong growth can be expected in future years as well, and the growth we're seeing here is being led by Germany too. So, basically you're talking shit

I'm not sure what all the gloating is about really on either side but that's dozens of individual countries, compared to a single national entity. Technically peaking Brazil is growing faster than the USA is; part of the USA's problem seems to be nowhere to grow since the uber wealthy are making competition impossible beyond what is already there in most the most expensive and risky (hence lucrative) markets.

[Techno-Soviet]

Oh, so you're changing the topic, because you won't admit the USA isn't as economically powerful as the EU? We with our national health services and welfare states are apparently better at economic growth than "land of the free" USA? Go on... say it. Your own economic and social systems are unfortunately flawed, not progressive, in terms of income inequality OR GDP growth. The USA can't handle large market crashes, invasions, occupations, social progressiveness, post-recession economic growth these days, compared to it's European peers... tell me, what is it especially good at these days? I like the USA, but you guys clearly have a lot to fix to catch up! True progressiveness will only come about whenever most people admit your system is inferior. Protecting a delusion won't help you, it'll only cripple your nations in years to come.

TRUE SOCIAL PROGRESSIVES BAN THE HIJAB AND HATE ON ISLAM!

JUST LOOK AT EUROPE!

[Ad Nihilo]

Oh, so you're changing the topic, because you won't admit the USA isn't as economically powerful as the EU? We with our national health services and welfare states are apparently better at economic growth than "land of the free" USA? Go on... say it. Your own economic and social systems are unfortunately flawed, not progressive, in terms of income inequality OR GDP growth. The USA can't handle large market crashes, invasions, occupations, social progressiveness, post-recession economic growth these days, compared to it's European peers... tell me, what is it especially good at these days? I like the USA, but you guys clearly have a lot to fix to catch up! True progressiveness will only come about whenever most people admit your system is inferior. Protecting a delusion won't help you, it'll only cripple your nations in years to come.

TRUE SOCIAL PROGRESSIVES BAN THE HIJAB AND HATE ON ISLAM!

JUST LOOK AT EUROPE!

Well, at least in Europe it is not considered you inalienable human right to be stupid, as it is in the US, guaranteed by the constitution.

And I think you'll find there is far less "hate on Islam" in Europe than there is in the US. Here we have lots of them, and we live with them in peace. The only reason there is a fair amount of media coverage on the issue is a sort of "lol at the troll" approach to the issue whenever a right wing nutter opens their mouth. In the US, it seems they are a far smaller proportion of the population, so you are really not familiar with them as neighbours (enemy image and all that).

And the banning of the full veil has very little to do with "hating the moslems", and a lot more to do with challenging right wing Islamic nutters that think women should not exist in public, and trying to engage women in social discourse without their gender or religion being an impediment to this. Also, Egypt and Syria have banned those veils in public before any European country has.

[EvilDarkMagicians]

Oh, so you're changing the topic, because you won't admit the USA isn't as economically powerful as the EU? We with our national health services and welfare states are apparently better at economic growth than "land of the free" USA? Go on... say it. Your own economic and social systems are unfortunately flawed, not progressive, in terms of income inequality OR GDP growth. The USA can't handle large market crashes, invasions, occupations, social progressiveness, post-recession economic growth these days, compared to it's European peers... tell me, what is it especially good at these days? I like the USA, but you guys clearly have a lot to fix to catch up! True progressiveness will only come about whenever most people admit your system is inferior. Protecting a delusion won't help you, it'll only cripple your nations in years to come.

TRUE SOCIAL PROGRESSIVES BAN THE HIJAB AND HATE ON ISLAM!

JUST LOOK AT EUROPE!

Ignore all the other social progressions European countries have made...

[Vetalia]

And second, the Japanese miracle came to a halt because of an asset price bubble. So quite arguably, because of a lack of necessary regulation, rather than excessive government intervention.

A significant part of it was due to excessive government intervention rather than lack of regulation; the government was far too intertwined with the kereitsu and the banks and so they willingly primed the pump of credit to keep the economy expanding at a rapid pace despite clear signs that a bubble was building. Once it burst, those same entanglements stymied a realistic response to the crisis (namely, letting firms fail); the result was that trillions of yen were pumped in to zombie firms that were effectively bankrupt but were kept afloat by government.

Not surprisingly, these firms contributed nothing to economic recovery and sucked away resources that could have been better allocated elsewhere; combine that with the extreme amount of debt the country had generated and it's not surprising that they've been stagnant for such a long time (along with demographic problems).

The situation is similar in China, although there are some key differences. In some ways, China today has more in common with Japan in the 1960's than anything else...the real test will come later once the economy has reached economic maturity.

And third, to this day, 2 lost decades later, the average Japanese person is quite well off, and there is no rampant unemployment. Do you think an economy like the US can ever achieve such low unemployment over two decades of barely any growth?

No, true, but we also don't have a stagnant/declining population and massive restrictions on all forms of immigration. Japan's unemployment rate is low because their labor force has been pretty stable for a long time; of course, that low unemployment also conceals the fact that the quality of jobs has deteriorated alongside job security and benefits. Many Japanese workers today are glorified temps in all but name; this systemic shift towards more temporary employment will have negative consequences down the line.

[Glorious Homeland]

The Economist
http://economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/08/europes_economies?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/turbocharged
BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10962017
Well, they may as well given recent figures. Except Portugal, Spain and especially Greece...

What's that America? A group of countries with large spending on universal healthcare and welfare policies are growing much faster economically post-recession than you? *dances*

Australia doesn't care and neither do our Chinese masters.


Good troll thread though. 'bout a 7 out of 10.

It's not a troll thread damnit! Since when does proving that the USA's economic-social system isn't the best trolling?! Because anything that is a proof or justified criticism of the USA a troll? Bah.

Oh, so you're changing the topic, because you won't admit the USA isn't as economically powerful as the EU? We with our national health services and welfare states are apparently better at economic growth than "land of the free" USA? Go on... say it. Your own economic and social systems are unfortunately flawed, not progressive, in terms of income inequality OR GDP growth. The USA can't handle large market crashes, invasions, occupations, social progressiveness, post-recession economic growth these days, compared to it's European peers... tell me, what is it especially good at these days? I like the USA, but you guys clearly have a lot to fix to catch up! True progressiveness will only come about whenever most people admit your system is inferior. Protecting a delusion won't help you, it'll only cripple your nations in years to come.

TRUE SOCIAL PROGRESSIVES BAN THE HIJAB AND HATE ON ISLAM!

JUST LOOK AT EUROPE!

Ignore all the other social progressions European countries have made...

Lol, I thought "ground zero mosque" would have been a good enough rebuttal. Neither side of the pond is exactly purely innocent on this matter. Least our Muslim-Hating and generalising isn't supported by a major political party leader...

[Conservative Alliances]

The Economist
http://economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/08/europes_economies?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/turbocharged
BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10962017
Well, they may as well given recent figures. Except Portugal, Spain and especially Greece...

What's that America? A group of countries with large spending on universal healthcare and welfare policies are growing much faster economically post-recession than you? *dances*

Australia doesn't care and neither do our Chinese masters.


Good troll thread though. 'bout a 7 out of 10.

It's not a troll thread damnit! Since when does proving that the USA's economic-social system isn't the best trolling?! Because anything that is a proof or justified criticism of the USA a troll? Bah.

Maybe if you did not make such a bold statement arrogantly using the term "laugh" and try to say that your weak evidence is proof of the inherent inferiority of the most powerful economy in the world and then proceed to *dance*, this would be taken more seriously. It's either trolling or wishful thinking.

[Ad Nihilo]

And second, the Japanese miracle came to a halt because of an asset price bubble. So quite arguably, because of a lack of necessary regulation, rather than excessive government intervention.

A significant part of it was due to excessive government intervention rather than lack of regulation; the government was far too intertwined with the kereitsu and the banks and so they willingly primed the pump of credit to keep the economy expanding at a rapid pace despite clear signs that a bubble was building. Once it burst, those same entanglements stymied a realistic response to the crisis (namely, letting firms fail); the result was that trillions of yen were pumped in to zombie firms that were effectively bankrupt but were kept afloat by government.

I never said government was completely innocent of involvement in the issue. But the need for business credit to keep the economy expanding was a reasonable political end, and it should have been pursued as it was. It was negligent, however, not to compensate for this with adequate regulation to prevent the "unavoidable" asset price inflation in the property and assets markets, by, for example, putting serious curbs on speculative investment.

Not surprisingly, these firms contributed nothing to economic recovery and sucked away resources that could have been better allocated elsewhere; combine that with the extreme amount of debt the country had generated and it's not surprising that they've been stagnant for such a long time (along with demographic problems).

As I mentioned in a different post above, I consider that the right course of action, while the economy is unwinding from the bubble. People usually prefer economic stability to economic fluctuation in the hope of greater growth in pretty much every country apart from the US. Given Japan's culture, it's really not that surprising that they prefer it as well.

The situation is similar in China, although there are some key differences. In some ways, China today has more in common with Japan in the 1960's than anything else...the real test will come later once the economy has reached economic maturity.

Agreed. Though I seem to be more inclined than you to believe that China has actually learnt from the Japanese experience.

And third, to this day, 2 lost decades later, the average Japanese person is quite well off, and there is no rampant unemployment. Do you think an economy like the US can ever achieve such low unemployment over two decades of barely any growth?

No, true, but we also don't have a stagnant/declining population and massive restrictions on all forms of immigration. Japan's unemployment rate is low because their labor force has been pretty stable for a long time; of course, that low unemployment also conceals the fact that the quality of jobs has deteriorated alongside job security and benefits. Many Japanese workers today are glorified temps in all but name; this systemic shift towards more temporary employment will have negative consequences down the line.

I suppose given the context of demographics, Japan would then be far more comparable with European economies. Yet it does significantly better in terms of unemployment that those as well (also it seems that their immigration policy has a lot more to do with xenophobia than with concern for unemployment). And glorified temps or not, they have an underlying culture of workplace loyalty, and effectively higher workplace security than in the West, where for some reason a dynamic economy requires a dynamic labour market (whereas the Japanese seem to have been able to make without the latter quite successfully for a long time). And surely everybody working less, but being employed and not on welfare is preferable to 10-20% unemployment under any social consideration.

[Glorious Homeland]

The Economist
http://economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/08/europes_economies?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/turbocharged
BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10962017
Well, they may as well given recent figures. Except Portugal, Spain and especially Greece...

What's that America? A group of countries with large spending on universal healthcare and welfare policies are growing much faster economically post-recession than you? *dances*

Australia doesn't care and neither do our Chinese masters.


Good troll thread though. 'bout a 7 out of 10.

It's not a troll thread damnit! Since when does proving that the USA's economic-social system isn't the best trolling?! Because anything that is a proof or justified criticism of the USA a troll? Bah.

Maybe if you did not make such a bold statement arrogantly using the term "laugh" and try to say that your weak evidence is proof of the inherent inferiority of the most powerful economy in the world and then proceed to *dance*, this would be taken more seriously. It's either trolling or wishful thinking.

Second largest compared to the EU*. I'm just sick of some Americans on this forum going on about how their economic system is golden, and how apparently universal welfare and healthcare would cripple their shiny system, while the European alternative trundles along happily, and now doing better at recovering economically from crisis than the USA itself, with it's supposedly gutsy and bounce-back economics. It clearly must be inferior if it's growing less than a much more left-wing European collective average, and has much less in the way of debt as a percentage of GDP and government programmes and obligations like healthcare or welfare. Those Americans who remain boastful and ignorant about their nation's economic strengths and weaknesses comparatively still are locked in their indoctrinated manifest destiny state of mind regarding how the USA is and compares to the wider world.

Notice how not a single comment here from any American (unless call to power is, but I think he's british) has been even slightly accepting of the possibility that the USA is anything but #1? This proves my point given the figures cited across the board from both sides. In order for the USA to improve and transcend, it's people must break out of their delusional and egocentric mindset regarding their own supposed superiority. This is the only way they will do anything but fan the flames of their own destruction. But given how apparently any criticism of the USA equal to the intensity of the manifest destiny superiority crap often spouted is "trolling", well; clearly it won't be long before the USA is on a downward spiral. That was the same arrogance and ignorance that led to the weakening and collapse of the British empire. The elite got too cocky, too naive about the world around them, and so as it changed they failed to adapt and brought the system with them, to extinction.

[SaintB]

The Economist
http://economist.com/blogs/freeexchange/2010/08/europes_economies?fsrc=scn/fb/wl/bl/turbocharged
BBC News
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/business-10962017
Well, they may as well given recent figures. Except Portugal, Spain and especially Greece...

What's that America? A group of countries with large spending on universal healthcare and welfare policies are growing much faster economically post-recession than you? *dances*

Australia doesn't care and neither do our Chinese masters.


Good troll thread though. 'bout a 7 out of 10.

It's not a troll thread damnit! Since when does proving that the USA's economic-social system isn't the best trolling?! Because anything that is a proof or justified criticism of the USA a troll? Bah.

Maybe if you did not make such a bold statement arrogantly using the term "laugh" and try to say that your weak evidence is proof of the inherent inferiority of the most powerful economy in the world and then proceed to *dance*, this would be taken more seriously. It's either trolling or wishful thinking.

Second largest compared to the EU*. I'm just sick of some Americans on this forum going on about how their economic system is golden, and how apparently universal welfare and healthcare would cripple their shiny system, while the European alternative trundles along happily, and now doing better at recovering economically from crisis than the USA itself, with it's supposedly gutsy and bounce-back economics. It clearly must be inferior if it's growing less than a much more left-wing European collective average, and has much less in the way of debt as a percentage of GDP and government programmes and obligations like healthcare or welfare. Those Americans who remain boastful and ignorant about their nation's economic strengths and weaknesses comparatively still are locked in their indoctrinated manifest destiny state of mind regarding how the USA is and compares to the wider world.

Notice how not a single comment here from any American has been even slightly accepting of the possibility that the USA is anything but #1? This proves my point given the figures cited across the board from both sides. In order for the USA to improve and transcend, it's people must break out of their delusional and egocentric mindset regarding their own supposed superiority. This is the only way they will do anything but fan the flames of their own destruction. But given how apparently any criticism of the USA equal to the intensity of the manifest destiny superiority crap often spouted is "trolling", well; clearly it won't be long before the USA is on a downward spiral. That was the same arrogance and ignorance that led to the weakening and collapse of the British empire. The elite got too cocky, too naive about the world around them, and so as it changed they failed to adapt and brought the system with them, to extinction.

EU is not a country, its a big group of countries. Your comparing a dozen chicken eggs to an ostrich egg and trying to call them the same. Then you call people arrogant for pointing it out.

[Glorious Homeland]

The USA is divided between states, much like the EU is divided between states. At best the EU could be described as a loose confederation, but it is fundamentally a union like the USA; and while the differences between countries is much greater than between US states, it's more accurate to compare the EU to USA on macro-economic levels than the USA to Germany, given more relative populations, land mass, GDP, etc. That's not what's the main point of discussion, the difference between them is generally almost all European nations are managed with a much more left-wing budget and expenditure than the USA.

[Conservative Alliances]

Second largest compared to the EU*.

Which is a collection of 27 nations with 200 million more people, not a single nation. I am a bit tired of Europeans bringing that up as if it really means anything. Why don't we just compare NAFTA to the EU?

I'm just sick of some Americans on this forum going on about how their economic system is golden, and how apparently universal welfare and healthcare would cripple their shiny system, while the European alternative trundles along happily, and now doing better at recovering economically from crisis than the USA itself, with it's supposedly gutsy and bounce-back economics.

I don't think anyone actually believes the US economic system is perfect. Also, healthcare and welfare present long term complications, not short term devastation. You can hardly say the European countries are doing well considering that the social programs that they have introduced cannot be sustained forever. Slow birthrates have rendered the population far too old and the working population is incapable of supporting retirees and the poor. You can also hardly say that one quarter is enough to say that Europe is recovering from the crisis better.

It clearly must be inferior if it's growing less than a much more left-wing European collective average, and has much less in the way of debt as a percentage of GDP and government programmes and obligations like healthcare or welfare. Those Americans who remain boastful and ignorant about their nation's economic strengths and weaknesses comparatively still are locked in their indoctrinated manifest destiny state of mind regarding how the USA is and compares to the wider world.

Is this really even worthy of a response?

Notice how not a single comment here from any American (unless call to power is, but I think he's british) has been even slightly accepting of the possibility that the USA is anything but #1? This proves my point given the figures cited across the board from both sides. In order for the USA to improve and transcend, it's people must break out of their delusional and egocentric mindset regarding their own supposed superiority. This is the only way they will do anything but fan the flames of their own destruction. But given how apparently any criticism of the USA equal to the intensity of the manifest destiny superiority crap often spouted is "trolling", well; clearly it won't be long before the USA is on a downward spiral. That was the same arrogance and ignorance that led to the weakening and collapse of the British empire. The elite got too cocky, too naive about the world around them, and so as it changed they failed to adapt and brought the system with them, to extinction.

I don't see how Americans pointing out the fact that the US is economically the strongest nation means that you are correct that Americans have any superiority complex. Your reaction to people pointing out the facts and revealing your erroneous conclusions in the OP seems to suggest you have an inferiority complex more than anything else. I think you have the delusions, not everyone else. As I said before, you are either trolling or jumping on every little piece of information because of wishful thinking. That said, you can go ahead and prefer the European economies. That's your belief. You can also cite plenty of information to support you preference. But, to say they are inherently superior and contradicting facts in the process doesn't really lend the thread any credibility.

[Vetalia]

I never said government was completely innocent of involvement in the issue. But the need for business credit to keep the economy expanding was a reasonable political end, and it should have been pursued as it was. It was negligent, however, not to compensate for this with adequate regulation to prevent the "unavoidable" asset price inflation in the property and assets markets, by, for example, putting serious curbs on speculative investment.

Of course. However, the government was so vested in these companies that it was politically impossible to do so; a lot of people seriously believed Japan had achieved a new paradigm of economic performance and were completely unwilling to do anything to imperil that growth. Often, the biggest threat during an asset bubble isn't the malfeasance that those in the know commit, it's everyone else who genuinely believes the good times are a permanent, new era that will never end.

As I mentioned in a different post above, I consider that the right course of action, while the economy is unwinding from the bubble. People usually prefer economic stability to economic fluctuation in the hope of greater growth in pretty much every country apart from the US. Given Japan's culture, it's really not that surprising that they prefer it as well.

It depends on whether allowing those companies to fail would have been the better alternative; Japanese-style stagnation would be an unmitigated disaster

Agreed. Though I seem to be more inclined than you to believe that China has actually learnt from the Japanese experience.

I believe they have as well, but the challenge is convincing the billion or so people that are benefiting massively from this bubble, at least for now, that stopping the boom is a good idea. Especially if they do so too early and sacrifice an excessive amount of growth, which could be seriously destabilizing in the country's currently volatile environment.

I suppose given the context of demographics, Japan would then be far more comparable with European economies. Yet it does significantly better in terms of unemployment that those as well (also it seems that their immigration policy has a lot more to do with xenophobia than with concern for unemployment). And glorified temps or not, they have an underlying culture of workplace loyalty, and effectively higher workplace security than in the West, where for some reason a dynamic economy requires a dynamic labour market (whereas the Japanese seem to have been able to make without the latter quite successfully for a long time). And surely everybody working less, but being employed and not on welfare is preferable to 10-20% unemployment under any social consideration.

Well, my concern is precisely what you mention about their workplace culture; the very reason why those temporary positions are proliferating is because the country's traditional salaryman with a guaranteed job, promotion through seniority, and guaranteed benefits in exchange for long, hard working hours is fading away. A lot of this is due to those demographic pressures, increasing the cost of benefits without new workers to fill the gap caused by retirement as well as the stagnant economy, which has crimped profits and made it harder to fund obligations and retain workers. As a result of this, loyalty and job satisfaction have also suffered, further fostering that downward cycle as productivity stagnates.

Ultimately, I believe this will change; Japan's birthrate is starting to increase again and will likely restore demographic stability in the future (part of this may very well be a product of the country's culture), but in the meantime this will pose a serious challenge to the traditional structure of Japan's economy.

[The blessed Chris]

What's that America? A group of countries with large spending on universal healthcare and welfare policies are growing much faster economically post-recession than you? *dances*

What's that Europe? A group of supposedly 'progressive' countries experiencing massive xenophobia to the point of considering oppression of minorities?

There's only a minority that gives a shit about Europe's supposed 'Progressiveness', and a large part of said minority just so happens to consist of left-ish Americans.

A good European majority will happily cheer you on if you mock said American left-ish folks for their delusional rose-tinted view of Europe.

Oh, I don't know; we can apparently manage large welfare systems that empower the poor, reduce income inequality, raise opportunity, and yet also grow faster post-recession AND have a bigger GDP than the USA? How is that rose-tinted?
Unless you're measuring American success in terms of negative growth and income inequality? That must be it.

Are you illiterate or something?

The point is that recent figures are proving American's economic approach inferior to ours, in general. We can be progressive socially and economically progressive too. Why can't the USA be both? Lazy Americans? That's what the right put the poor down to anyway isn't it? Laziness, I guess Americans must just be much lazier than the average European, if they can't manage decent social provisions and economic expansion?

The EU already is a greater economic force than the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

IMF GDP estimates 2009
EU: 16.4trl USD
USA: 14.2trl USD

Given the enlargement of the EU into eastern Europe, strong growth can be expected in future years as well, and the growth we're seeing here is being led by Germany too. So, basically you're talking shit

The EU is hardly a united force. You can't compare a loose collection of States and the USA.

It can be compared in many ways, like GDP, economic growth and such. The point is that the one thing those in the USA who are scathing about across the pond; the economy, and how apparently the USA's more laissez faire economics is superior, and how the welfare system and things like universal healthcare will break or bankrupt a state or make it economically less powerful? Recent figures disagree with that assessment.

They can grow at that rate for decades and not match the US economically...

The EU already is a greater economic force than the USA.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_GDP_(nominal)

IMF GDP estimates 2009
EU: 16.4trl USD
USA: 14.2trl USD

Given the enlargement of the EU into eastern Europe, strong growth can be expected in future years as well, and the growth we're seeing here is being led by Germany too. So, basically you're talking shit

1 country versus 44747747474 countries...
Ill take my chances.

Oh, so you're changing the topic, because you won't admit the USA isn't as economically powerful as the EU? We with our national health services and welfare states are apparently better at economic growth than "land of the free" USA? Go on... say it. Your own economic and social systems are unfortunately flawed, not progressive, in terms of income inequality OR GDP growth. The USA can't handle large market crashes, invasions, occupations, social progressiveness, post-recession economic growth these days, compared to it's European peers... tell me, what is it especially good at these days? I like the USA, but you guys clearly have a lot to fix to catch up! True progressiveness will only come about whenever most people admit your system is inferior. Protecting a delusion won't help you, it'll only cripple your nations in years to come.

Yes indeedy do. The Eu is just a wonderful thing for outmoded, arrogant progressives such as yourself. What better way to create "true progressiveness" than to force it by undemocratic superstate upon countries whose electorates rejected such policies nationally?

[Caninope]

The USA is divided between states, much like the EU is divided between states. At best the EU could be described as a loose confederation, but it is fundamentally a union like the USA; and while the differences between countries is much greater than between US states, it's more accurate to compare the EU to USA on macro-economic levels than the USA to Germany, given more relative populations, land mass, GDP, etc. That's not what's the main point of discussion, the difference between them is generally almost all European nations are managed with a much more left-wing budget and expenditure than the USA.

You have no idea how federalism works, do you?

[Zoingo]

A worthless index that is biased towards equality.

Here in America we have a thing called capitalism which rewards success and punishes stupidity.

Except when the big businesses start failing and we start bailing them out....

Last I checked we were talking individuals...

Exorbitant CEO bonuses for driving their companies into the ground? Either way, capitalism does not work that way. It works the way those in power want it to..

Personally, its not my business to tell a CEO what he makes or how to run his/her company effectively into the ground. If there is fraud or abuse in the process by the executive then the shareholders of the corporation have the right to sue or bring up damages while in a bankruptcy court. It is however, disheartening that CEO's would give themselves exorbitant bonuses with taxpayer funded government bailouts, that isn't capitalism, that is greed and theft, and where I draw the line.

We don't have to bail out any companies, but all the current presidential administration (and the last one) wishes to do is scream "too big to fail!!!!1111!!!" and then throw billion dollar checks at corporations, propping up failed institutions which should have collapsed and let the market reset itself. Rather, the administration is just kicking the corporate collapse can down the road, only next time we may not have the money.

Hmn, since Canada was neglected (shocker) in the OP's articles I was curious to see how the great white north was doing, and of course see how my e-peinus by GDP proxy was doing.

Hmn... turns Canada has the US and EU beat with a 3.5% GDP growth rate between Jan and July. Take that Lithuania! http://www.tradingeconomics.com/Economics/GDP-Growth.aspx?Symbol=CAD

Of course the recession has been pretty mild in Canada http://worthwhile.typepad.com/.a/6a00d83451688169e20133f2e60d88970b-pi
Particularily compared to the US reccession http://calculatedriskimages.blogspot.com/2010/08/employment-recessions-july-2010.html Geez that's nasty looking.

Of course as more informed minds than mine have pointed out Canada's growth is likely to stagnate at some point if the US doesn't claw its way out soon since they are our (Canada's) biggest trading partner....and they might buy less of our stuff at some point.

Probably shouldn't try to calculate when Canada overtakes USA and the EU as the economic power of the Western world just yet....

I am actually very impressed with Canada at the moment, in recent years they have started to outrank the United States in a few areas such as (surprisingly) economic freedom, so as of now I have officially decided to stop mocking mounties, maple syrup, wanabee Frenchies, and the maple leaf flag. /o/ <--(superhero canada)

And second, the Japanese miracle came to a halt because of an asset price bubble. So quite arguably, because of a lack of necessary regulation, rather than excessive government intervention.

Just wanted to add in that after eight stimulus plans and several revolving door Prime Ministers, paving over the entire island in public works projects dedicated to rebound the economy, then paving over the ocean to build a large international airport, for a grand total of 1.5 trillion USD.....the Japanese Markets are still volatile.

It is nice that the Japanese are well employed, but after 20 years its sad that their economy still has yet to rebound, and now they have a very toxic public debt:GDP ratio to boot. (189%) http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_public_debt

I'm just sick of some Americans on this forum going on about how their economic system is golden, and how apparently universal welfare and healthcare would cripple their shiny system, while the European alternative trundles along happily, and now doing better at recovering economically from crisis than the USA itself, with it's supposedly gutsy and bounce-back economics.

The American economic system isn't perfect, it still has its flaws with certain sectors being over-regulated or under-regulated or just flat out confusing regulations, a punitive and frankly mythical idea that "corporations pay taxes" (USA has one of the highest corporate tax rates on earth), and a government that won't stop spending and continues to ignore state's rights in areas like welfare or education. Its ironic that you would make such a comparison, because with the current liberal administration and congress, America is shifting into a European style system, while European systems are starting to become more conservative.

If there is any evidence that the European model is declining, look no further than Greece (lets give gov. employees pensions 100000000000000000% of their salary!), Spain (2 jobs lost for every 1 new green job created), Portugal (no example ), UK (Massive out of control spending, gov. deficit reaching 10% of GDP anyone?), etc.

It clearly must be inferior if it's growing less than a much more left-wing European collective average, and has much less in the way of debt as a percentage of GDP and government programmes and obligations like healthcare or welfare. Those Americans who remain boastful and ignorant about their nation's economic strengths and weaknesses comparatively still are locked in their indoctrinated manifest destiny state of mind regarding how the USA is and compares to the wider world.

The United States is growing slower and not "U shape recovering" for a few reasons different than yours:

The result of the present presidential administration's policies is leaving the United States economy with no major changes in unemployment, business growth flat, business credit availability nonexistent, and relative stagnation. Interest rates can not stay at 0% forever, and the massive printing of money out of the Federal Reserve is eventually going to lead to hyperinflation, or at least drastically higher inflation and interest rates. Above all, consumer spending and capital investment, the main driving force in the US economy, are withdrawn and siting on the sidelines due to uncertainty in the market. The recently passed Healthcare bill and its potential effects, the new Financial Regulatory bill, the "porkulous" and corrupt appropriation bills flowing out of Washington D.C., expiration of the Bush Tax Cuts and/or raising of income tax rates, increases in the rate or increases in the cap of income allowed to be taxed under the Social Security/Medicare payroll taxes, increases in the death tax, increases in the capital gains tax in the name of "a balanced budget" (pause and laugh for a moment), are all factors which have consumers not spending and investors....well... not investing.

Ontop of all of this, the United States Budget is out of control, with trillion dollar deficits projected over the next couple of years, Social Security running into the ground, Medicare/Medicaid going broke, government regulations piling ontop of businesses, and general shenanigans are pulling the economy down.

Its safe to say that the USA isn't loosing its economic might via a sunshine and lollipops "laissez-faire" market, but through an uncertain economic outlook shadowed by the federal government simply turning everything it touches into dust.

Notice how not a single comment here from any American (unless call to power is, but I think he's british) has been even slightly accepting of the possibility that the USA is anything but #1? This proves my point given the figures cited across the board from both sides. In order for the USA to improve and transcend, it's people must break out of their delusional and egocentric mindset regarding their own supposed superiority.

A bit of Angloaphobia/USAphobia?

Being the largest military power/industrious nation on Earth doesn't come without some boasting, as was common with the British Empire in its heyday (e.x. "The Sun never sets [on us]").

The elite got too cocky, too naive about the world around them, and so as it changed they failed to adapt and brought the system with them, to extinction.

Try Nationalism in colonized countries, government depletion of gold (which backed the pound sterling), slowed economic growth after the "industrial revolution", and an outdated/shrinking navy after WWI. If you answered as any of the mentioned, you are correct.

[Weathergeeks]

They can grow at that rate for decades and not match the US economically...

True, but wouldn't you like to be out of a recession?

Eh, the recession has its perks.

Like what? Making the Repubs more unpopular?

never let recent polling data interfere with your political fantasies

[Weathergeeks]

we are #1 NOT becuase we are superior
we are #1 b/c guys like you dont GET what makes America special.

the Key point that you are missing here genuis.... is that it has been the actual political fiscal and economic policy of the USA since 1945 to ensure that other nations GROW and prosper even at the expense of the USA.

NO one with a brain denies that since 1945 the relative power of the USA in relation to any other major nation or the world as a whole has been in decline. That is by design.

a stronger Europe is a good thing b/c most europeans seem to love to got to war with each other.
a stronger stable Russia is a GOOD thing.
a stronger stable India is a Good thing.
etc etc

all of which is done at the expense --in terms of relative world power -- of the USA

But what your high school almost Moronic argument about the USA is just like the British Empire is well fucking absurd.

it was the POLICY of the Britain from 1815 to 1940 to SCREW everyone and anyone.

The British never ever practice REAL capitalism .... not like in the USA.
IN Britain you had to have the Right education right class right religion.

In the USA we have NEVER given a shit about WHO you are what your education is or where you come from.

Gates and Jobs back in the late 80s and 90s would have never gotten off the ground in the UK b/c they never went to or finished college.
Larry Page & Sergey Brin started Google in the USA.....
NOT in China or France or Germany or Russia or Brazil.

Back in the 1980s EVERY single foriegn policy expert asserted the USA was over and it was / is Now Japan's turn.

Notice how not a single comment here from any American (unless call to power is, but I think he's british) has been even slightly accepting of the possibility that the USA is anything but #1? This proves my point given the figures cited across the board from both sides. In order for the USA to improve and transcend, it's people must break out of their delusional and egocentric mindset regarding their own supposed superiority. This is the only way they will do anything but fan the flames of their own destruction. But given how apparently any criticism of the USA equal to the intensity of the manifest destiny superiority crap often spouted is "trolling", well; clearly it won't be long before the USA is on a downward spiral. That was the same arrogance and ignorance that led to the weakening and collapse of the British empire. The elite got too cocky, too naive about the world around them, and so as it changed they failed to adapt and brought the system with them, to extinction.