"Ground Zero" mosque approved, Obama supports

[Wamitoria]

I would say its radical, since the Imam in charge refuses to denounce Hamas¹.. and the fact that a majority of NYCers are deadset against this means nothing².. its all about the decisions of the few elitist in the government³... ya, thats freedom and liberty at work, eh?

1 and 2: source?
3: Elitist is just a buzz-word.

[Sondstead]

1st amendment DOES guarantee freedom of religion, yes, but it DOESNT guarantee WHERE you can build your place of worship.. if it did, you wouldnt have zoning laws saying where churches, etc can and cant be built... the ground zero mosque is nothing more then a taunt to us and a triumph of radical islam over NYC... i thought it would take longer then it did, but often reality is stranger than fiction.

Tekania and Enadail made the point I was going to make first, but still, I'll reiterate it. Looking at Google Maps there is a Catholic church a block away. A block away from that is an Episcopalian church. Not much further away are two synagogues. If Christians and Jews can have their places of worship so close to Ground Zero, it is a violation of religious freedom not to allow Muslims their's.

[Drachmar]

Peoples right to worship who they want, and practice their relgions is fine, and should be fine.

However, building this mosque so close to 'Ground Zero' isn't right, in my opinion anyway, because thousands of people lost family, and thousands of people lost their lives. Mainly because of the people who flew the plane into the world trade centre - who were muslims. I've nothing against muslims at all, but killing people, isn't right at all. No matter what they've done to you, there is no reasoning or justification for this. And I feel, Americans deserve to have this site, kept clear, of anything and especially something that represents the people who did this - so they can go and remember their family/friends in peace.

NYC is a very big city. you cant even see the mosque site from ground zero.

how far away would it have to be in order for the muslims of that area to worship god "right"?

4-5 blocks.

Masjid Manhattan is on 20 Warren St. according to Google Maps.

http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=en&client=firefox-a&hs=YUj&rls=org.mozilla:en-US:official&um=1&ie=UTF-8&q=Manhattan+mosques&fb=1&gl=us&hq=mosques&hnear=Manhattan,+New+York&view=text&ei=bghnTKjKFdHUngff8-HABQ&sa=X&oi=local_group&ct=more-results&resnum=7&ved=0CDMQtQMwBg

[Faith Hope Charity]

I would say its radical, since the Imam in charge refuses to denounce Hamas¹.. and the fact that a majority of NYCers are deadset against this means nothing².. its all about the decisions of the few elitist in the government³... ya, thats freedom and liberty at work, eh?

1 and 2: source?
3: Elitist is just a buzz-word.

1: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manh ... nfuQcrcabL

2: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-be ... 02569.html

3: they ARE elitist, if they don't respect the positions of their constituents.. no? they value their own positions more than the peoples, makes them elitist.

[Juristonia]

Hamas is a democratically elected government.
Are you against democracy now?
Why do you hate freedom?

The only triumph radicals have is that this entire thing is even an issue.
They made the country so scared that entire groups are going against the founding principles of their nation.

[Unchecked Expansion]

3: they ARE elitist, if they don't respect the positions of their constituents.. no? they value their own positions more than the peoples, makes them elitist.

They also swore to uphold a constitution that forbids that sort of thing, and holds that rights are not subject to popular opinion. But only elitists follow the constitution of their country

[Faith Hope Charity]

3: they ARE elitist, if they don't respect the positions of their constituents.. no? they value their own positions more than the peoples, makes them elitist.

They also swore to uphold a constitution that forbids that sort of thing, and holds that rights are not subject to popular opinion. But only elitists follow the constitution of their country

uhh.. where it the constitution does it guarantee where a building can be built? it doesnt.. it just says you have freedom of religion.. these 2 things are separate issues... we have zoning laws dictating where such building can be built, but you dont see people whining about the location of where the building is.... so why does this building have to be so close to such a historically sensitive area, if they aren't trying to poke americans in the eye?

[Unchecked Expansion]

3: they ARE elitist, if they don't respect the positions of their constituents.. no? they value their own positions more than the peoples, makes them elitist.

They also swore to uphold a constitution that forbids that sort of thing, and holds that rights are not subject to popular opinion. But only elitists follow the constitution of their country

uhh.. where it the constitution does it guarantee where a building can be built? it doesnt.. it just says you have freedom of religion.. these 2 things are separate issues... we have zoning laws dictating where such building can be built, but you dont see people whining about the location of where the building is.... so why does this building have to be so close to such a historically sensitive area, if they are trying to poke americans in the eye?

It complies with all the zoning laws. There is no legal reason it cannot be built there, and to discriminate on the grounds of religion is, guess what, not legal or constitutional. The building is there because it was planned to be there, probably for all the Muslim's working in the area. It's there because there's a need for it there

[Faith Hope Charity]

Hamas is a democratically elected government.
Are you against democracy now?
Why do you hate freedom?

The only triumph radicals have is that this entire thing is even an issue.
They made the country so scared that entire groups are going against the founding principles of their nation.

yes, i am against democracy... its 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.. its tyrrany of the majority.. and me hating freedom? please... I'm just a libertarian in name only i guess.

representative republic is the only stable form of government.

maybe Hamas was elected because Palistinians agree with their positions? thats not too much of a stretch for me.. and what about the freedom of the israelis that they are harassing too, with missiles? does that factor in at all, or is this just a 1 sided argument?

[Juristonia]

uhh.. where it the constitution does it guarantee where a building can be built? it doesnt.. it just says you have freedom of religion.. these 2 things are separate issues... we have zoning laws dictating where such building can be built, but you dont see people whining about the location of where the building is.... so why does this building have to be so close to such a historically sensitive area, if they aren't trying to poke americans in the eye?

Constitution gives them freedom or religion.
Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there.
Considering your flag, I'd think you would uphold this great example of capitalism/free market/etc.
The only people poking anyone in the eye are people like you who toss all Muslims in with the radicals.
Kinda like if I were to toss you in with the nutcases from the Westboro Baptist Church.
But I'm sure you'll find that a completely different situation.

[Enadail]

I would say its radical, since the Imam in charge refuses to denounce Hamas¹.. and the fact that a majority of NYCers are deadset against this means nothing².. its all about the decisions of the few elitist in the government³... ya, thats freedom and liberty at work, eh?

1 and 2: source?
3: Elitist is just a buzz-word.

1: http://www.nypost.com/p/news/local/manh ... nfuQcrcabL

2: http://www.nbcnewyork.com/news/local-be ... 02569.html

3: they ARE elitist, if they don't respect the positions of their constituents.. no? they value their own positions more than the peoples, makes them elitist.

The first article shows that he will not say hamas is or isn't a terrorist organization... not that he won't denounce them. He's opting to remain neutral. There's a giant difference.

The second article shows a majority of New Yorkers oppose. Ok. Some polls have shown the opposite, but lets go with it anyway... the majority does not get to choose the rights of the minority, no more here then with gay rights or atheist rights (for those confused on that point, more then a few laws have tried to come up making atheism a crime, make atheists unable to serve in govn't, etc). Just because people oppose something doesn't mean they can overrule the constitution.

Lastly, a elected official serves the constitution first, constituents second. The constitution allows this, and forbids stopping it. By allowing it, our elected officials are following the oaths of office they swore.

[Tekania]

I would say its radical, since the Imam in charge refuses to denounce Hamas..

Whether you vocally make a statment about an organization does not define someone as "radical".

and the fact that a majority of NYCers are deadset against this means nothing..

Yes, it does mean nothing. In the US everything is not simply a matter of majority vote, many times the majority's actions must be restrained by the enumerated powers in order to protect the rights of the people.

its all about the decisions of the few elitist in the government... ya, thats freedom and liberty at work, eh?

Yes, it is liberty and freedom... When the majority attempts to overstep and to deny rights to a minority it is the governments job to arrest that majority in its actions and ensure overall liberty to the people. Perhaps someone should have taught you how the US system was designed to work in the context of US civics. It really does not matter how many polled people believe what... These Muslims having equal access and protections to the law to get approval of their Mosque, and then their ability to built upon their property within those constraints according to their rights as property owner's, and their rights in observance of their religion is intrinsically American.... People attempting to create an entire separate standard against this group simply to prevent them from exercising their rights is intrinsically un-American.

[Juristonia]

Hamas is a democratically elected government.
Are you against democracy now?
Why do you hate freedom?

The only triumph radicals have is that this entire thing is even an issue.
They made the country so scared that entire groups are going against the founding principles of their nation.

yes, i am against democracy... its 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.. its tyrrany of the majority.. and me hating freedom? please... I'm just a libertarian in name only i guess.

representative republic is the only stable form of government.

maybe Hamas was elected because Palistinians agree with their positions? thats not too much of a stretch for me.. and what about the freedom of the israelis that they are harassing too, with missiles? does that factor in at all, or is this just a 1 sided argument?

Apparently you have absolutely no idea what a libertarian is, but judging by your posts, having no idea is a normal state of being.
It's a group of American citizens using their constitutional rights.
Why do you hate the constitution?

Of course. That's what democracy is. The majority vote. And?
I'm not even going to get in to the ridiculous poor Israeli argument with you again because it'd be like talking to a very dumb wall.

[Faith Hope Charity]

uhh.. where it the constitution does it guarantee where a building can be built? it doesnt.. it just says you have freedom of religion.. these 2 things are separate issues... we have zoning laws dictating where such building can be built, but you dont see people whining about the location of where the building is.... so why does this building have to be so close to such a historically sensitive area, if they aren't trying to poke americans in the eye?

Constitution gives them freedom or religion.
Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there.
Considering your flag, I'd think you would uphold this great example of capitalism/free market/etc.
The only people poking anyone in the eye are people like you who toss all Muslims in with the radicals.
Kinda like if I were to toss you in with the nutcases from the Westboro Baptist Church.
But I'm sure you'll find that a completely different situation.

"Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there."
you better get familiar with building codes then, cuz that definitely is not part of it... if we had total freedom of building, there would be no zoning codes.

And as for titles you assign me? wtg on going ad hominem... like your opinion of me really affects me, i really dont give a rats ass what you think about me.

[Faith Hope Charity]

Hamas is a democratically elected government.
Are you against democracy now?
Why do you hate freedom?

The only triumph radicals have is that this entire thing is even an issue.
They made the country so scared that entire groups are going against the founding principles of their nation.

yes, i am against democracy... its 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.. its tyrrany of the majority.. and me hating freedom? please... I'm just a libertarian in name only i guess.

representative republic is the only stable form of government.

maybe Hamas was elected because Palistinians agree with their positions? thats not too much of a stretch for me.. and what about the freedom of the israelis that they are harassing too, with missiles? does that factor in at all, or is this just a 1 sided argument?

Apparently you have absolutely no idea what a libertarian is, but judging by your posts, having no idea is a normal state of being.
It's a group of American citizens using their constitutional rights.
Why do you hate the constitution?

Of course. That's what democracy is. The majority vote. And?
I'm not even going to get in to the ridiculous poor Israeli argument with you again because it'd be like talking to a very dumb wall.

lol, its funny when liberals detract from the argument to go ad hominem... typical faire... i'm not the argument, the mosque is, so lets just keep it that way.

[Tekania]

yes, i am against democracy... its 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.. its tyrrany of the majority.. and me hating freedom? please... I'm just a libertarian in name only i guess.

Judging by your positional statements in here, yes... You are libertarian in name only. You're advocating to use governmental power to deny property rights, you're acting in ways opposed to people's first amendment religious practice protections and speech, and you're simultaneously arguing about polled numbers while also calling democracy "tyranny of the majority"... To be honest, you don't actually even resemble a single core concept of "libertarian"... So you are "libertarian" in name only.

[Enadail]

uhh.. where it the constitution does it guarantee where a building can be built? it doesnt.. it just says you have freedom of religion.. these 2 things are separate issues... we have zoning laws dictating where such building can be built, but you dont see people whining about the location of where the building is.... so why does this building have to be so close to such a historically sensitive area, if they aren't trying to poke americans in the eye?

Constitution gives them freedom or religion.
Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there.
Considering your flag, I'd think you would uphold this great example of capitalism/free market/etc.
The only people poking anyone in the eye are people like you who toss all Muslims in with the radicals.
Kinda like if I were to toss you in with the nutcases from the Westboro Baptist Church.
But I'm sure you'll find that a completely different situation.

"Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there."
you better get familiar with building codes then, cuz that definitely is not part of it... if we had total freedom of building, there would be no zoning codes.

And as for titles you assign me? wtg on going ad hominem... like your opinion of me really affects me, i really dont give a rats ass what you think about me.

Fine, building codes matter. They have the appropriate permits and have have filed the appropriate paperwork. Whats your point? Why keep bringing it up? Its been stated here more then once and is a matter of public record. Fine, freedom of speech doesn't let you build where ever they want. Their permits do. Done.

Apparently you have absolutely no idea what a libertarian is, but judging by your posts, having no idea is a normal state of being.
It's a group of American citizens using their constitutional rights.
Why do you hate the constitution?

Of course. That's what democracy is. The majority vote. And?
I'm not even going to get in to the ridiculous poor Israeli argument with you again because it'd be like talking to a very dumb wall.

lol, its funny when liberals detract from the argument to go ad hominem... typical faire... i'm not the argument, the mosque is, so lets just keep it that way.

No, stating the truth is not an ad hominem attack... care to tell us what ad hominem means? Obviously your dictionary isn't quite working on Libertarian, so I'd assume something like ad hominem isn't quite there either.

[Faith Hope Charity]

yes, i am against democracy... its 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.. its tyrrany of the majority.. and me hating freedom? please... I'm just a libertarian in name only i guess.

Judging by your positional statements in here, yes... You are libertarian in name only. You're advocating to use governmental power to deny property rights, you're acting in ways opposed to people's first amendment religious practice protections and speech, and you're simultaneously arguing about polled numbers while also calling democracy "tyranny of the majority"... To be honest, you don't actually even resemble a single core concept of "libertarian"... So you are "libertarian" in name only.

you need to study your forms of government more then, it sounds like you dont know what republic is.. and what democracy is... republic protects the rights of the minority, a democracy doesnt... it the majority that makes all the rules... and im deadset against that idea.

[Unchecked Expansion]

you need to study your forms of government more then, it sounds like you dont know what republic is.. and what democracy is... republic protects the rights of the minority, a democracy doesnt... it the majority that makes all the rules... and im deadset against that idea.

So you're arguing against a case of the government protecting rights from the majority?

[Juristonia]

lol, its funny when liberals detract from the argument to go ad hominem... typical faire... i'm not the argument, the mosque is, so lets just keep it that way.

It's funny when righties accuse you of doing the exact same thing as they do.
Alright, let's stick to the subject. Try not to build a straw man by dragging Israel in to this.

Give me one legally valid reason why they should not be allowed to build a Mosque blocks away from ground zero.
Give me one valid reason why all Muslims should be exempt from the law because of the actions of a few.

"Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there."
you better get familiar with building codes then, cuz that definitely is not part of it... if we had total freedom of building, there would be no zoning codes.

They own the land, thus they're allowed to build there.
This isn't exactly rocket science.

No one's saying everyone has complete freedom to build whenever, wherever.
Nice little attempt there.

And as for titles you assign me? wtg on going ad hominem... like your opinion of me really affects me, i really dont give a rats ass what you think about me.

Excellent.
How about responding to my point instead then?
How is judging the entire Muslim population for the actions of a minority any different from judging the entire Christian population for the actions of a minority?

[Drachmar]

yes, i am against democracy... its 2 wolves and a sheep deciding what to have for dinner.. its tyrrany of the majority.. and me hating freedom? please... I'm just a libertarian in name only i guess.

Judging by your positional statements in here, yes... You are libertarian in name only. You're advocating to use governmental power to deny property rights, you're acting in ways opposed to people's first amendment religious practice protections and speech, and you're simultaneously arguing about polled numbers while also calling democracy "tyranny of the majority"... To be honest, you don't actually even resemble a single core concept of "libertarian"... So you are "libertarian" in name only.

you need to study your forms of government more then, it sounds like you dont know what republic is.. and what democracy is... republic protects the rights of the minority, a democracy doesnt... it the majority that makes all the rules... and im deadset against that idea.

I can help you dig this hole. Here, have a shovel.

*hands shovel to FHC*

[Faith Hope Charity]

lol, its funny when liberals detract from the argument to go ad hominem... typical faire... i'm not the argument, the mosque is, so lets just keep it that way.

It's funny when righties accuse you of doing the exact same thing as they do.
Alright, let's stick to the subject. Try not to build a straw man by dragging Israel in to this.

Give me one legally valid reason why they should not be allowed to build a Mosque blocks away from ground zero.
Give me one valid reason why all Muslims should be exempt from the law because of the actions of a few.

"Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there."
you better get familiar with building codes then, cuz that definitely is not part of it... if we had total freedom of building, there would be no zoning codes.

They own the land, thus they're allowed to build there.
This isn't exactly rocket science.

No one's saying everyone has complete freedom to build whenever, wherever.
Nice little attempt there.

And as for titles you assign me? wtg on going ad hominem... like your opinion of me really affects me, i really dont give a rats ass what you think about me.

Excellent.
How about responding to my point instead then?
How is judging the entire Muslim population for the actions of a minority any different from judging the entire Christian population for the actions of a minority?

its not judging the actions of a minority.. its expecting people to be civil and understand that it is a sensitive area for this to be done in, and accept it.. its that simple... im not saying they cant build a mosque, period, im saying, its very insensitive to build it there.

[Enadail]

lol, its funny when liberals detract from the argument to go ad hominem... typical faire... i'm not the argument, the mosque is, so lets just keep it that way.

It's funny when righties accuse you of doing the exact same thing as they do.
Alright, let's stick to the subject. Try not to build a straw man by dragging Israel in to this.

Give me one legally valid reason why they should not be allowed to build a Mosque blocks away from ground zero.
Give me one valid reason why all Muslims should be exempt from the law because of the actions of a few.

"Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there."
you better get familiar with building codes then, cuz that definitely is not part of it... if we had total freedom of building, there would be no zoning codes.

They own the land, thus they're allowed to build there.
This isn't exactly rocket science.

No one's saying everyone has complete freedom to build whenever, wherever.
Nice little attempt there.

And as for titles you assign me? wtg on going ad hominem... like your opinion of me really affects me, i really dont give a rats ass what you think about me.

Excellent.
How about responding to my point instead then?
How is judging the entire Muslim population for the actions of a minority any different from judging the entire Christian population for the actions of a minority?

its not judging the actions of a minority.. its expecting people to be civil and understand that it is a sensitive area for this to be done in, and accept it.. its that simple... im not saying they cant build a mosque, period, im saying, its very insensitive to build it there.

Insensitive how? Should Christians no longer build Churches near graveyards, or start graveyards near churches, because what Westboro Baptist Church is pretty evil/amoral/insensitive at funerals? Can we now judge all Christians because of the WBC's actions? Actions which many many Christians denounce/oppose? I mean, you seem to think that these Muslims are somehow linked to the terrorists involved in 9/11, thus making their actions insensitive. As there's no connection, can we also now make insane connections among other groups?

The only thing insensitive here is people making a connection between this group and the terrorists of 9/11, and by extension limiting their rights/believing they are immoral for their choices.

[Juristonia]

lol, its funny when liberals detract from the argument to go ad hominem... typical faire... i'm not the argument, the mosque is, so lets just keep it that way.

It's funny when righties accuse you of doing the exact same thing as they do.
Alright, let's stick to the subject. Try not to build a straw man by dragging Israel in to this.

Give me one legally valid reason why they should not be allowed to build a Mosque blocks away from ground zero.
Give me one valid reason why all Muslims should be exempt from the law because of the actions of a few.

"Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there."
you better get familiar with building codes then, cuz that definitely is not part of it... if we had total freedom of building, there would be no zoning codes.

They own the land, thus they're allowed to build there.
This isn't exactly rocket science.

No one's saying everyone has complete freedom to build whenever, wherever.
Nice little attempt there.

And as for titles you assign me? wtg on going ad hominem... like your opinion of me really affects me, i really dont give a rats ass what you think about me.

Excellent.
How about responding to my point instead then?
How is judging the entire Muslim population for the actions of a minority any different from judging the entire Christian population for the actions of a minority?

its not judging the actions of a minority.. its expecting people to be civil and understand that it is a sensitive area for this to be done in, and accept it.. its that simple... im not saying they cant build a mosque, period, im saying, its very insensitive to build it there.

Stop ignoring the questions.

[Faith Hope Charity]

lol, its funny when liberals detract from the argument to go ad hominem... typical faire... i'm not the argument, the mosque is, so lets just keep it that way.

It's funny when righties accuse you of doing the exact same thing as they do.
Alright, let's stick to the subject. Try not to build a straw man by dragging Israel in to this.

Give me one legally valid reason why they should not be allowed to build a Mosque blocks away from ground zero.
Give me one valid reason why all Muslims should be exempt from the law because of the actions of a few.

"Building and property laws give them the freedom to build them there."
you better get familiar with building codes then, cuz that definitely is not part of it... if we had total freedom of building, there would be no zoning codes.

They own the land, thus they're allowed to build there.
This isn't exactly rocket science.

No one's saying everyone has complete freedom to build whenever, wherever.
Nice little attempt there.

And as for titles you assign me? wtg on going ad hominem... like your opinion of me really affects me, i really dont give a rats ass what you think about me.

Excellent.
How about responding to my point instead then?
How is judging the entire Muslim population for the actions of a minority any different from judging the entire Christian population for the actions of a minority?

its not judging the actions of a minority.. its expecting people to be civil and understand that it is a sensitive area for this to be done in, and accept it.. its that simple... im not saying they cant build a mosque, period, im saying, its very insensitive to build it there.

Insensitive how? Should Christians no longer build Churches near graveyards, or start graveyards near churches, because what Westboro Baptist Church is pretty evil/amoral/insensitive at funerals? Can we now judge all Christians because of the WBC's actions? Actions which many many Christians denounce/oppose? I mean, you seem to think that these Muslims are somehow linked to the terrorists involved in 9/11, thus making their actions insensitive. As there's no connection, can we also now make insane connections among other groups?

The only thing insensitive here is people making a connection between this group and the terrorists of 9/11, and by extension limiting their rights/believing they are immoral for their choices.

you are free to judge any group however you feel.. if you wanna draw connections, more power to you. Also, simply because YOU may not think its insensitive, doesnt mean others may. If the leader wants to remain neutral about a terrorist organization.. that doesnt raise any red flags in your head about ulterior motives he may have? Come on, lets use common sense here... most sane people know that Hamas is terrorist, and wont want to remain neutral on the subject. At least to me, this right here is enough to not allow it built. You may have a differing opinion, more power to you.