ADL Statement on Ground Zero Mosque

[Katganistan]

That's because pornography is distasteful. Pornography =/= Islam.

A mosque in one's neighborhood can lower property values just as much as a porn shop. A few statistics and surveys and there would more than enough to prohibit it, though it would undoubtedly fester in the courts for several years.

One can always move if they don't approve of what other residents who live in the area are doing. And really, a mosque lowering property values? I don't suppose you could provide a source -- along with sources about synagogues and churches and their effect on property values?

[Seculartopia]

The ADL actually has a fair point here -- sure they have a right to build a mosque there, but should they? Healing and forgiveness sounds really nice, but do we honestly believe those are the only things that are going to come out of this? I foresee endless pickets and protests, and in the end, a lot more pain and hurt than would be produced if they simply build the mosque somewhere else in the city.

From what I can tell, land is a premium in New York City, so that plan may not be feasible, and nor should it even be on the table.

I guess we can have Freedom of Religion as long as it doesn't offends anyone sensibilities, right?

The ADL didn't prohibit them from building there, so obviously they're not infringing their freedom of religion. They're merely suggesting that you know what, this is going to create a ton of problems, and maybe you shouldn't be rushing into it.

Well the ADL should mind it's own damn business. The Mosque was slated to be built well before the 9/11 attacks, and the only reason people oppose it is that they get half lies, and half lies from the Fox News Network and their pundits like Glenn Beck and Bill O' Riley. If they'd get off of their fat ass once in awhile and actually talk to a Muslim face to face, they'd realize that Islam is not the worse thing in the world and it's not a threat to the American way of life.

Yeah no, that's definitely what the ADL should do. Mind its own damn business. Amnesty International should shut the hell up about Darfur too, we're all tired of that.

Whether or not you believe that a mosque would be fine, by simply looking at the fact that there's an issue with this to begin with, it should be obvious to you that other people do not agree with you. And whether or not the tenets of Islam factored into the 9/11 attacks, it should be obvious that quite a large percentage of the population believes that they did. Is it wrong? Probably. Should people go and learn about Islam? Probably, but let's also remember that Islam is the religion that gave us Sharia law, which is frankly pretty out in the open for anyone trying to learn more about the religion.

This is not about whether Islam is "bad" or not. It's about whether building a mosque which so many people vehemently oppose would be detrimental to relations between the average American and Islam, and evidently the ADL believes it would be. It's a pretty subjective question, and to say that the ADL is definitely wrong or definitely right is, in my opinion, not taking into account that subjectivity.

Yet should it just go without learning more about Muslims in America? Should it go, since we obviously cant build a mosque blocks away from the WTC?

---

The same way THE MUSLIMS STARTED IT justified the crusades.

The Crusades were directly caused by the Muslim invasion of Europe. Some guy blowing up an innocent family in Iraq was not directly cause by the US invasion. See the difference?

Yes, so a power that just happened to be muslim tries to inevitably expand north, and the entirety of Christian Europe goes back at them?

Sounds like to be two religions bickering for thousands of years, not Muslims starting things.

[Katganistan]

There isn't one in the books that would prevent such construction yet but there certainty can be one.

Also, I have ALWAYS been a supporter of building codes. Keeping low class shit out of good neighborhoods and ugly buildings out of nice areas is a way to keep property values high and to maintain good demographics in an area.

Translation, I support deregulation and Property Rights, as long as the darkies and brownies know their place and stay there.

Who the Hel is going to hire you as a lawyer, the Ku Klux Klan?

Good demographics is referring to class, not race. A trailer park is just as damaging to a community as a Newports and 40s shop.

So you're saying you want the peasants to stay out of your area?

They have their own areas.

Which is your area when they can afford to buy into it.

[Karsol]

Eh the same way that the discussion on who started the Crusades is relevant.

It's relevant because the Muslims triggered the Crusades by invading Europe, and their attitude hasn't changed since.

Actually, it's gotten worse.

Because porn theaters, drug users and hookers = mosques and Muslim American families.

If you can use the law to keep one thing out, you can use it on another thing.

So you want to pervert the law to use against people who had nothing to o with 9/11?

Next you would want to bring the back the camps you kept Japanese-Americans in.

[Sun Aut Ex]

Yes, yes it is. Would he have been setting bombs probably intended for American soldiers if they didn't invade? I doubt it.

"Indiscriminate killing acceptable from Muslims, not from Westerners."

[Katganistan]

Before I say anything, may I make it clear that I have no predjudice at all against Islam. I know many Muslims who are far kinder, more tolerant and friendly than many Christians I know. But let's face it, Islamic extremists exist and do pose a threat to both the US' and my native UK's national security. Most Muslims I know are rightly horrified by the actions of Islamic extremists, including 9/11, and it's only right that Muslims show some respect to the victims of 9/11. This isn't about predjudice against Islam; this is about the effect building a mosque would have on the victims' families and the general irony; it's hard to explain, but there's a simple unfairness about a temple to a religion responsible of this mass murder being built on or near the site; it's like saying, "Ha, we win." Let's not forget that Muslims, or at least the majority, are just nice, normal people, but equally, we must show some respect for the deceased. ADL is spot on.

Yes, especially the part where they say that these folks have been unfairly attacked and criticized and have a right to build there.

[Seculartopia]

Eh the same way that the discussion on who started the Crusades is relevant.

It's relevant because the Muslims triggered the Crusades by invading Europe, and their attitude hasn't changed since.

Actually, it's gotten worse.

Because porn theaters, drug users and hookers = mosques and Muslim American families.

If you can use the law to keep one thing out, you can use it on another thing.

First off, I'm going to asses the blatant racism that's bordering on trolling. So, you want to keep Muslim American families out of New York? Because they happen to believe in a similar ideology to what so extremist fuckball believed in? Damn, we better keep the Christians out of Jerusalem. And maybe get the Jews out of Gaza.

Maybe we need to get all Christians away from the American West as well.

[Katganistan]

Oh, by the way, why has St. Nicholas Greek Orthodox Church not yet been rebuilt, but there's this mad rush to built a 13 story mosque ASAP?

Perhaps their congregation hasn't gotten the money together to repair their property, as this congregation has gotten their money together to build their mosque.

You don't expect the city to pay for it, now do you?

[Sun Aut Ex]

Right. Because they spontaneously attacked, with no provocation.

They did, and they weren't.

You're rambling, dear.

đụ má, you condescending mugu.

[Katganistan]

There isn't one in the books that would prevent such construction yet but there certainty can be one.

Also, I have ALWAYS been a supporter of building codes. Keeping low class shit out of good neighborhoods and ugly buildings out of nice areas is a way to keep property values high and to maintain good demographics in an area.

Translation, I support deregulation and Property Rights, as long as the darkies and brownies know their place and stay there.

Who the Hel is going to hire you as a lawyer, the Ku Klux Klan?

Good demographics is referring to class, not race. A trailer park is just as damaging to a community as a Newports and 40s shop.

So you're saying you want the peasants to stay out of your area?

They have their own areas.

I expect you support feudalism? What ho, those nasty peasants are daring to move into OUR neighbourhood. Why, they weren't born with money, they were born in poverty and should STAY THERE.

Feudalism is decent, though I prefer a system that allows for the poor to advance through hard work and fail by their merits.

Good. We're in agreement then. They can live where they can afford to buy. That's the American way.

[Karsol]

Right. Because they spontaneously attacked, with no provocation.

They did, and they weren't.

You're rambling, dear.

đụ má, you condescending mugu.

You did fund groups like them for decades, as well as fighting in the Gulf war.

[Katganistan]

More Muslims than Greek Orthodox.

Really? That's the best you can do?

So Muslims deserve a place of worship more than the Greeks, whose church was destroyed by Muslims?

Although, this was to be expected, the Muslims have a history of attacking Greeks.

No, they can afford to do it. Both deserve to have a place of worship, but you know that that's not what this is about at all. Nice way to try to pit Muslims against Christians by saying the residents in the neighborhood damaged the church. And trolling is tiresome.

[Sun Aut Ex]

I don't know why I bother debating with you if you know jack shit other then what Fox told you.

What exactly did the US do to deserve 9/11, then? Pray tell, I'm all ears.

You did fund groups like them for decades, as well as fighting in the Gulf war.

Yeah, how dare the US help the Afghans and the Kuwaitis defend themselves from the Soviets and the Iraqis respectively?

Lesson learnt: never help anybody.

[Katganistan]

That's because pornography is distasteful. Pornography =/= Islam.

And who are you to say we can't worship porn?

Residential zoning laws say you need to move down to a commercial/industrial zone about six blocks away.

[Seculartopia]

I don't know why I bother debating with you if you know jack shit other then what Fox told you.

What exactly did the US do to deserve 9/11, then? Pray tell, I'm all ears.

The US did not "deserve" 9/11. It was led on by some factors, but hardly is an attack justification to bring restrictions on Islam. You are at the burden of evidence of justifying this.

Id say it be about as successful as imprisoning the Japanese after Pearl Harbor. There could be "OMGMUSLIMTERRISTS" or mostly, theres probably just Muslims.

Maybe, just maybe, its this recurring Jingoistic policy in the U.S. that incites such? I know, how terrible to think we could actually change US Policy.

[Sun Aut Ex]

The US did not "deserve" 9/11. It was led on by some factors, but hardly is an attack justification to bring restrictions on Islam. You are at the burden of evidence of justifying this.

I'd say this is a fantastic justification.

[Katganistan]

Yes, because NYC is building the mosque for them [/sarcasm]

They're building it of their own accord, as respectfully as possible, and a whole bunch of bigot loons are jumping on the bandwagon, ranting something about "danged foreigners" and "2nd amendment" and "Obamuslim". Or something like that.

OK, what about this?

Last July, the Port Authority and the Greek Orthodox Church announced a tentative plan to rebuild the church just east of its original site, at Liberty and Greenwich Streets. The authority agreed to provide the church with land for a 24,000-square-foot house of worship, far larger than the original, and $20 million. Since the church would be built in a park over the bomb-screening center, the authority also agreed to pay up to $40 million for a blast-proof platform and foundation.

In recent negotiations, the authority cut the size of the church slightly and told church officials that its dome could not rise higher than the trade center memorial.

So the CHRISTIAN church is limited in size, but MOSQUE can be as big as the Tower of Babel!

Is the rebuilt church going to be much larger than the one it's replacing? Yes.
Is the mosque being built on the site of the WTC? -- No.
Is the mosque receiving money from the city because there is going to be security measures put under it? No.
Does the building commission have the right to limit height of buildings so they are consonant with other buildings in the immediate environs? Yes.
Is a thirteen story building out of place on the site several blocks away where it's proposed? No.

Why don't we give the mosque $20 million and more land to expand their plans -- as the church is getting. Seems fair, right?

[Seculartopia]

The US did not "deserve" 9/11. It was led on by some factors, but hardly is an attack justification to bring restrictions on Islam. You are at the burden of evidence of justifying this.

I'd say this is a fantastic justification.

Not really. Radical Muslims have carried out terrorist attacks.

You still havent justified restricting all muslims. What are you to answer for the great majority that are absolutely against the radicals?

[Katganistan]

Have any proof from an unbiased source that the Mosque isn't being restricted in size?

... It's 13 stories tall.

As are the other buildings in the block, some taller. Really, try harder.

[Sun Aut Ex]

You still havent justified restricting all muslims. What are you to answer for the great majority that are absolutely against the radicals?

Yeah, that's right, I'm sure that the "great majority" are peaceful and accepting.

[Seculartopia]

You still havent justified restricting all muslims. What are you to answer for the great majority that are absolutely against the radicals?

Yeah, that's right, I'm sure that the "great majority" are peaceful and accepting.

You obviously have serious misunderstandings of Islam.

http://www.time.com/time/magazine/artic ... 87,00.html

[Sun Aut Ex]

As are the other buildings in the block, some taller. Really, try harder.

I think it's about time to take those stained glass windows out of your avatar.

[Sun Aut Ex]

Because we know, when someone attacks your nation *coughJAPANcough* the best thing to do is deny xxxx-American citizens rights.

Thank you, you finally GET IT.

[Seculartopia]

Because we know, when someone attacks your nation *coughJAPANcough* the best thing to do is deny xxxx-American citizens rights.

Thank you, you finally GET IT.

Yes, because people of the same ethnicity or religion as that EVIL nation deserve to lose rights, those inhuman non-americans!

[Galiria]

Because we know, when someone attacks your nation *coughJAPANcough* the best thing to do is deny xxxx-American citizens rights.

Thank you, you finally GET IT.

You don't seem to get it though. That was sarcasm I believe.