Should Students be Expelled for Religious/Sexual Beliefs?

[Unhealthy2]

Actually, I'm in the middle of a fascinating book that takes scientists of all different kinds to task for the lack of academic rigor in many peer-reviewed journals. The author is particularly tough on biologists.

I'm sure his great service will help feed more arguments to creationists and global warming deniers.

[Ryadn]

I'm not sure that they specify what the chances are before they divided by 10k...? I mean, I didn't see anything... So what's the problem with assuming 1 in 10,000?

Likely, that number is far more likely than what it really is, is what he's trying to say.

So basically we can assume something larger than 1 in 10,000? Huh... 1 in 10^10000 sounds about right?

Seriously, if the rate of failure rate for condoms was mimicked by practically any other industry... It'd be pulled so fast from the market it'd be a joke.

...this is getting painful to read.

[Unhealthy2]

You know, I don't think you people are interpreting the study correctly.

For one, the numbers I find on the Internet indicate something more along the lines of a 95% reduction in risk with condom usage than one of four orders in magnitude, which is consistent with what I've heard before. For another, the abstract, at least, doesn't actually directly say that it decreases the chance of getting HIV by four orders of magnitude. What it says is "proper use of latex condoms would result in exposure reduction from HIV of at least 4 orders of magnitude." I haven't read the whole study, just the abstract, and I'm not sure I really understand what the abstract is saying, but considering its extensive discussion of leakage, I'm pretty sure it's talking about leakage levels, not seroconversion.

I'm just going by the tiny little snippet I was given and am correcting several math fails.

[The Black Forrest]

It's ironic that, in complaining about an attack on Christianity, people are supporting the idea that Christian belief is superior to course criteria, that if a Christian studying geology believes in the 6, 000 year old earth then it's discrimination to fail him when he answers all exam questions under that assumption.

It's actually elevating Christianity above everything else but, somehow, people can't see that.

I didn't see that having a student go to a pride parade was part of the course criteria.

There are some very good Christian beliefs that have very good effects on society, like, "love thy neighbor as thy self".

I think there's a place in the world for Christian counselors. If nothing else than to help other Christians, perhaps?

I have a radio comercial for a local university that offers something like "regular degrees for custom majors"? WTF The guy got his degree in "educational justice" and a job as a school principal. WTF is "educational justice"? Does he make sure all the kids have equal access to crayons? Are some students promoted or held back due to ethnicity? Teaching institutions are acting crazy nowadays.

There is absolutely a place for Christian counselors. I actually know a few who are good people. You know what they do? They politely refer clients whose basic views clash with their own to another, more appropriate counselor. They don't try to 'fix' them.

As for your question about whether some students are promoted or held back due to ethnicity... yes. Yes they are. Black males are more likely than any other population to be recommended for special ed, and to be held back.

They are out there. I remember a couple who did marriage counseling with a priest who was a trained counselor. He told them he was a counselor first and a Priest second. They said he never brought the Bible into the discussions and when asked why he didn't he simply said he figured out that was not what they wanted to hear. Some want it and some don't.

Neutrality is important and if you can't deal with it; pass the patient to another.

The problem with the person in the story. Sounds like a fixer......

[Delator]

The significance is that this one was stopped before she did any damage.

By all means. Guilty until proven innocent. She's a Christian, she's clearly insane. Let's not even let her have the chance.

She has rejected the ethical code her course requires her to adhere to. She has been given a chance to demonstrate a change of heart. It's up to her

Yep...there's that pesky personal responsibility again.

People's idea of "normal" change from decade to decade.

Correct

The entire gay rights movement appears to be an attempt to re-define "normal" to some people/society-at-large.

The entire gay rights movement is an attempt to gain equal rights for LGBT people...

...that doesnt stop some people from thinking it's some ridiculous form of mass brain-washing.

[The Rich Port]

The movie's actually based on the short story by Anne Proulx, but that's... off topic.

I get the feeling this thread went off-topic awhile ago. And, for the last time, it doesn't matter if you're gay, we accept you either way.

I could contribute more than just dumb one-liners, but everyone is focused on convincing everyone to either convert to Christianity or be depressed like all the other Atheists.

[Pak Lemoc]

What the heck is happening to america?

[The Rich Port]

What the heck is happening to america?

The guy who might be onto something is either ignored, shot, or stabbed.

[Sun Aut Ex]

She has rejected the ethical code her course requires her to adhere to. She has been given a chance to demonstrate a change of heart. It's up to her

Just because she believes something, why do you assume that she'll be preaching it when she counsels? Some doctors smoke.

[Bramborska]

I'm not sure that they specify what the chances are before they divided by 10k...? I mean, I didn't see anything... So what's the problem with assuming 1 in 10,000?

Likely, that number is far more likely than what it really is, is what he's trying to say.

So basically we can assume something larger than 1 in 10,000? Huh... 1 in 10^10000 sounds about right?

Seriously, if the rate of failure rate for condoms was mimicked by practically any other industry... It'd be pulled so fast from the market it'd be a joke.

...this is getting painful to read.

Hey, I'm just talking from personal experience, but condoms are a bad joke. I use them, but seriously...

I just don't understand why people get angry when someone says something like "oh yeah, condoms break all the time" as if it wasn't the truth.

Well, let me correct myself... The only people I've known to get at all mad, or even try and debate the point, is NSG.

[You-Gi-Owe]

The significance is that this one was stopped before she did any damage.

By all means. Guilty until proven innocent. She's a Christian, she's clearly insane. Let's not even let her have the chance.

She has rejected the ethical code her course requires her to adhere to. She has been given a chance to demonstrate a change of heart. It's up to her

Yep...there's that pesky personal responsibility again.

People's idea of "normal" change from decade to decade.

Correct

The entire gay rights movement appears to be an attempt to re-define "normal" to some people/society-at-large.

The entire gay rights movement is an attempt to gain equal rights for LGBT people...

...that doesnt stop some people from thinking it's some ridiculous form of mass brain-washing.

Wish you'd post my entire posts, rather than just pick and choose various out of context statments.

[Ryadn]

I didn't see that having a student go to a pride parade was part of the course criteria.

There are some very good Christian beliefs that have very good effects on society, like, "love thy neighbor as thy self".

I think there's a place in the world for Christian counselors. If nothing else than to help other Christians, perhaps?

I have a radio comercial for a local university that offers something like "regular degrees for custom majors"? WTF The guy got his degree in "educational justice" and a job as a school principal. WTF if "educational justice"? Does he make sure all the kids have equal access to crayons? Are some students promoted or held back due to ethnicity? Teaching institutions are acting crazy nowadays.

Well I saw it as a chance to remain on the course, the alternative is that she's just out.

Fixed, just because good beliefs coincide with Christian beliefs doesn't mean anything - are you saying the mantra prior to Christianity was 'hate thy neighbour as thy self' - of course not.

I believe they're called priests but then I believe, as a female, she might have difficulty with the criteria for that as well.

Good to see that one is sticking to its guns over course criteria then, standards eh?

I saw it as an attempt to punish and be degrading to a human being, not a criteria for the course.

This is also a thought espoused in Jewish culture. Even in Islam, supposedly, but they're allowed to lie to the infidel. But it is a credit to Christian culture that it is prominently taught from generation to generation of Christians.

How very sexist of you. Protestant Christians don't worry so much about Roman Catholic traditions.

What standards are you talking about? Augusta or the one in the radio commercial? both sound shady to me.

Going to a gay pride parade is degrading... but treating homosexual clients as if they're diseased or mentally ill isn't? It sounds like that whole "love thy neighbor as thyself" thing that Christians teach isn't so prominent after all.

[Ryadn]

I'm still sort of hung up on the fact that she, if the article is to be believed, accomplished (or was clearly on her way to accomplishing) all of these general outlines yet was still kicked out because of, apparently, one section of the Ethics code.

I mean, in almost any other profession I think I'd understand, but c'mon... As I said before, we're talking about a counselor. The sort of people who make hard decisions for teenagers like what acne cream to avoid. We're not exactly talking hard science here or hard rules. I know this could be construed to be a tad unfair, but when the profession is like a step away from being a Zen Balancer or some other "practitioner," I'm always a little amused because people put on airs and talk about integrity for quasi-useless professions like it was a matter of life'n'death.

This is a display of such utter ignorance and contempt that I am, quite frankly, stunned. After reading this, I don't believe we have anything further to debate.

[Unchecked Expansion]

She has rejected the ethical code her course requires her to adhere to. She has been given a chance to demonstrate a change of heart. It's up to her

Just because she believes something, why do you assume that she'll be preaching it when she counsels? Some doctors smoke,

Because she said so

[Bramborska]

I'm still sort of hung up on the fact that she, if the article is to be believed, accomplished (or was clearly on her way to accomplishing) all of these general outlines yet was still kicked out because of, apparently, one section of the Ethics code.

I mean, in almost any other profession I think I'd understand, but c'mon... As I said before, we're talking about a counselor. The sort of people who make hard decisions for teenagers like what acne cream to avoid. We're not exactly talking hard science here or hard rules. I know this could be construed to be a tad unfair, but when the profession is like a step away from being a Zen Balancer or some other "practitioner," I'm always a little amused because people put on airs and talk about integrity for quasi-useless professions like it was a matter of life'n'death.

This is a display of such utter ignorance and contempt that I am, quite frankly, stunned. After reading this, I don't believe we have anything further to debate.

There you go again.

I'm just refusing to get worked up in the "moral decline of counseling profession" when... Well, I expressed my bits but especially when for profit universities are handing them out like candy.

[Ryadn]

Actually, I'm in the middle of a fascinating book that takes scientists of all different kinds to task for the lack of academic rigor in many peer-reviewed journals. The author is particularly tough on biologists.

I'm sure his great service will help feed more arguments to creationists and global warming deniers.

I worried about that, too, but he spends several chapters explaining why creationism is fail, as well as eugenics. Indeed, that's part of his point---that allowing studies and papers to be published that are not up to snuff undermines science as a whole.

[Ryadn]

The movie's actually based on the short story by Anne Proulx, but that's... off topic.

I get the feeling this thread went off-topic awhile ago. And, for the last time, it doesn't matter if you're gay, we accept you either way.

I could contribute more than just dumb one-liners, but everyone is focused on convincing everyone to either convert to Christianity or be depressed like all the other Atheists.

I'm actually a quite glass-half-full, people-are-basically-good, Carl Rogers-type agnostic.

[Unhealthy2]

I worried about that, too, but he spends several chapters explaining why creationism is fail, as well as eugenics. Indeed, that's part of his point---that allowing studies and papers to be published that are not up to snuff undermines science as a whole.

Honestly, I was expecting it was some kind of "There's no truth." and "Facts are social constructs." kind of nonsense from the postmodern geniuses.

[Ryadn]

I'm not sure that they specify what the chances are before they divided by 10k...? I mean, I didn't see anything... So what's the problem with assuming 1 in 10,000?

Likely, that number is far more likely than what it really is, is what he's trying to say.

So basically we can assume something larger than 1 in 10,000? Huh... 1 in 10^10000 sounds about right?

Seriously, if the rate of failure rate for condoms was mimicked by practically any other industry... It'd be pulled so fast from the market it'd be a joke.

...this is getting painful to read.

Hey, I'm just talking from personal experience, but condoms are a bad joke. I use them, but seriously...

I just don't understand why people get angry when someone says something like "oh yeah, condoms break all the time" as if it wasn't the truth.

Well, let me correct myself... The only people I've known to get at all mad, or even try and debate the point, is NSG.

Because they don't. If condoms break 'all the time', you might want to make an appt. with your doctor so s/he can show you how to put them on and take them off properly.

[Unchecked Expansion]

I'm still sort of hung up on the fact that she, if the article is to be believed, accomplished (or was clearly on her way to accomplishing) all of these general outlines yet was still kicked out because of, apparently, one section of the Ethics code.

I mean, in almost any other profession I think I'd understand, but c'mon... As I said before, we're talking about a counselor. The sort of people who make hard decisions for teenagers like what acne cream to avoid. We're not exactly talking hard science here or hard rules. I know this could be construed to be a tad unfair, but when the profession is like a step away from being a Zen Balancer or some other "practitioner," I'm always a little amused because people put on airs and talk about integrity for quasi-useless professions like it was a matter of life'n'death.

This is a display of such utter ignorance and contempt that I am, quite frankly, stunned. After reading this, I don't believe we have anything further to debate.

There you go again.

I'm just refusing to get worked up in the "moral decline of counseling profession" when... Well, I expressed my bits but especially when for profit universities are handing them out like candy.

The spokeswoman for the university indicated that in this case the code of ethics is required.
Refusing to agree to it is like refusing to sit your exams - you don't finish the course, you don't get the certification.

[You-Gi-Owe]

Going to a gay pride parade is degrading... but treating homosexual clients as if they're diseased or mentally ill isn't? It sounds like that whole "love thy neighbor as thyself" thing that Christians teach isn't so prominent after all.

Christ treated the diseased and mentally ill, the possessed, etcetera.

The question of what is and what isn't mental illness has nothing to do with Christian charity.

Can you love someone with the flu while not treating them as being sick?

Now, some will argue that the homosexual person isn't mentally ill, but that's a recent development, historically speaking, because the American Psychiatric Assoc. didn't unclassify homosexuality as a mental illness until the 1960's.

And the homosexual person can still be the object of Christian love, via the idea of "hate the sin and not the sinner".

[The Black Forrest]

Actually, I'm in the middle of a fascinating book that takes scientists of all different kinds to task for the lack of academic rigor in many peer-reviewed journals. The author is particularly tough on biologists.

I'm sure his great service will help feed more arguments to creationists and global warming deniers.

I worried about that, too, but he spends several chapters explaining why creationism is fail, as well as eugenics. Indeed, that's part of his point---that allowing studies and papers to be published that are not up to snuff undermines science as a whole.

It happens more then people think. I recently listened to a guy on the radio. He is publishing a book about how the pharmaceutical industry paid many doctors to write glowing stories for the New England Journal of Medicine. Nobody noticed the "infoganda" They have gotten better but it's a growing practice.

Even now BP is traveling up and down the coastal states trying to buy expert opinions on the spill. Luckily many of the scientists are telling them to fuck off.....

[Unhealthy2]

Christ treated the diseased and mentally ill, the possessed, etcetera.

The question of what is and what isn't mental illness has nothing to do with Christian charity.

Can you love someone with the flu while not treating them as being sick?

Now, some will argue that the homosexual person isn't mentally ill, but that's a recent development, historically speaking, because the American Psychiatric Assoc. didn't unclassify homosexuality as a mental illness until the 1960's.

And the homosexual person can still be the object of Christian love, via the idea of "hate the sin and not the sinner".

The possessed? Yeah, but it's a condescending love, and, most of the time, it's not even love, but thinly veiled hate.

[The Rich Port]

There you go again.

I'm just refusing to get worked up in the "moral decline of counseling profession" when... Well, I expressed my bits but especially when for profit universities are handing them out like candy.

Well, you DID kind of just dump on a profession that has been several decades in the working. Psychology is SRS BIZNS. And, also, I'm going to be a therapist when I grow up... You know, for depression and stuff. And you hurt my feelings when you talk about me like I'm a Zen Balancer.

I'm actually a quite glass-half-full, people-are-basically-good, Carl Rogers-type agnostic.

Hey, me too! I always knew there was more of those out there! Well, except I don't know who the hell Carl Rogers is and I call myself a Catholic for appearances (my mother would kick my ass if I said I wasn't Catholic in front of my relatives).

[Unchecked Expansion]

Going to a gay pride parade is degrading... but treating homosexual clients as if they're diseased or mentally ill isn't? It sounds like that whole "love thy neighbor as thyself" thing that Christians teach isn't so prominent after all.

Christ treated the diseased and mentally ill, the possessed, etcetera.

The question of what is and what isn't mental illness has nothing to do with Christian charity.

Can you love someone with the flu while not treating them as being sick?

Now, some will argue that the homosexual person isn't mentally ill, but that's a recent development, historically speaking, because the American Psychiatric Assoc. didn't unclassify homosexuality as a mental illness until the 1960's.

And the homosexual person can still be the object of Christian love, via the idea of "hate the sin and not the sinner".

Homosexuality wasn't and isn't a disease. That people were wrong in the past doesn't change it. A lot of things were different in the past. Historically speaking, American Independence only happened relatively recently