Should Students be Expelled for Religious/Sexual Beliefs?

[Unhealthy2]

It happens more then people think. I recently listened to a guy on the radio. He is publishing a book about how the pharmaceutical industry paid many doctors to write glowing stories for the New England Journal of Medicine. Nobody noticed the "infoganda" They have gotten better but it's a growing practice.

Even now BP is traveling up and down the coastal states trying to buy expert opinions on the spill. Luckily many of the scientists are telling them to fuck off.....

That's one of many reasons I like my field. Nonetheless, even with academic dishonesty, the truth always comes out eventually.

[Ryadn]

I worried about that, too, but he spends several chapters explaining why creationism is fail, as well as eugenics. Indeed, that's part of his point---that allowing studies and papers to be published that are not up to snuff undermines science as a whole.

Honestly, I was expecting it was some kind of "There's no truth." and "Facts are social constructs." kind of nonsense from the postmodern geniuses.

Nope. The title does make one pause, which is why I looked at it. A lot of what he talks about is lenient standards and corruption due to the drive for funding. As I said, I'm in the middle of it (only about four chapters in), but I'm thinking of starting a thread on the whole mess once I'm done.

[Delator]

The significance is that this one was stopped before she did any damage.

By all means. Guilty until proven innocent. She's a Christian, she's clearly insane. Let's not even let her have the chance.

She has rejected the ethical code her course requires her to adhere to. She has been given a chance to demonstrate a change of heart. It's up to her

Yep...there's that pesky personal responsibility again.

People's idea of "normal" change from decade to decade.

Correct

The entire gay rights movement appears to be an attempt to re-define "normal" to some people/society-at-large.

The entire gay rights movement is an attempt to gain equal rights for LGBT people...

...that doesnt stop some people from thinking it's some ridiculous form of mass brain-washing.

Wish you'd post my entire posts, rather than just pick and choose various out of context statments.

Not sure how it can be "out of context" when it's the last sentence...but I'll humor you.

I really don't see the problem that you do. Did you know that it was only in the 1960's that the American Psychiatric Association decided to reclassify homosexuality from a mental disorder? I imagine that there were a lot of counselors that disagreed with the classifcation change at that time. If this event had been happening in that time period, I have no doubt that she would have been allowed to continue in the program.

Maybe so...but we don't live in the 1960's, now do we?

People's idea of "normal" change from decade to decade. The entire gay rights movement appears to be an attempt to re-define "normal" to some people/society-at-large.

My previous statement remains the same, and hardly needed the rest of your "context" to retain validity.

[Barringtonia]

Now, some will argue that the homosexual person isn't mentally ill, but that's a recent development, historically speaking, because the American Psychiatric Assoc. didn't unclassify homosexuality as a mental illness until the 1960's.

Now some will argue that mechanical flight is possible, but that's a recent development, historically speaking, because mechanical flight wasn't achieved until 1903.

[Ryadn]

Going to a gay pride parade is degrading... but treating homosexual clients as if they're diseased or mentally ill isn't? It sounds like that whole "love thy neighbor as thyself" thing that Christians teach isn't so prominent after all.

Christ treated the diseased and mentally ill, the possessed, etcetera.

The question of what is and what isn't mental illness has nothing to do with Christian charity.

Can you love someone with the flu while not treating them as being sick?

Now, some will argue that the homosexual person isn't mentally ill, but that's a recent development, historically speaking, because the American Psychiatric Assoc. didn't unclassify homosexuality as a mental illness until the 1960's.

And the homosexual person can still be the object of Christian love, via the idea of "hate the sin and not the sinner".

And as I responded earlier, many states were not desegregated until the 1960's. That means the idea of blacks being people just like whites is a recent development, and if I'm an ER doctor and I feel like it's more important to treat the white patients than the black ones, that's okay, right?

[Unhealthy2]

Nope. The title does make one pause, which is why I looked at it. A lot of what he talks about is lenient standards and corruption due to the drive for funding. As I said, I'm in the middle of it (only about four chapters in), but I'm thinking of starting a thread on the whole mess once I'm done.

Howard Bloom made a great argument (it involved bees, but I can relate it to this) about how we should fund all sorts of science even if it seems aimless, because even the aimless stuff can pan out every once in a while, and that makes the whole exploration profession a useful venture.

[Ryadn]

Actually, I'm in the middle of a fascinating book that takes scientists of all different kinds to task for the lack of academic rigor in many peer-reviewed journals. The author is particularly tough on biologists.

I'm sure his great service will help feed more arguments to creationists and global warming deniers.

I worried about that, too, but he spends several chapters explaining why creationism is fail, as well as eugenics. Indeed, that's part of his point---that allowing studies and papers to be published that are not up to snuff undermines science as a whole.

It happens more then people think. I recently listened to a guy on the radio. He is publishing a book about how the pharmaceutical industry paid many doctors to write glowing stories for the New England Journal of Medicine. Nobody noticed the "infoganda" They have gotten better but it's a growing practice.

Even now BP is traveling up and down the coastal states trying to buy expert opinions on the spill. Luckily many of the scientists are telling them to fuck off.....

Oh, I read about that! Unbalanced, Unhinged, something like that, right?

[Bramborska]

I'm not sure that they specify what the chances are before they divided by 10k...? I mean, I didn't see anything... So what's the problem with assuming 1 in 10,000?

Likely, that number is far more likely than what it really is, is what he's trying to say.

So basically we can assume something larger than 1 in 10,000? Huh... 1 in 10^10000 sounds about right?

Seriously, if the rate of failure rate for condoms was mimicked by practically any other industry... It'd be pulled so fast from the market it'd be a joke.

...this is getting painful to read.

Hey, I'm just talking from personal experience, but condoms are a bad joke. I use them, but seriously...

I just don't understand why people get angry when someone says something like "oh yeah, condoms break all the time" as if it wasn't the truth.

Well, let me correct myself... The only people I've known to get at all mad, or even try and debate the point, is NSG.

Because they don't. If condoms break 'all the time', you might want to make an appt. with your doctor so s/he can show you how to put them on and take them off properly.

lol, who says my doctor doesn't already know how I put on my condoms?

[insert obligatory soft-porn nurse photo here/]

The spokeswoman for the university indicated that in this case the code of ethics is required.
Refusing to agree to it is like refusing to sit your exams - you don't finish the course, you don't get the certification.

Yeah, I got that all too, but I never made the connection that she refused the university's demands. She just expressed her views. I didn't really get, as you seem to say, that they asked her to swear by the Ethics Code, and then she just said "f u." But it is late here, so maybe my reading comprehension is a little slow.

[Delator]

Now some will argue that mechanical flight is possible, but that's a recent development, historically speaking, because mechanical flight wasn't achieved until 1903.

And as I responded earlier, many states were not desegregated until the 1960's. That means the idea of blacks being people just like whites is a recent development, and if I'm an ER doctor and I feel like it's more important to treat the white patients than the black ones, that's okay, right?

Thanks guys...I was worried I was going to have to argue about "context" some more.

[Ryadn]

There you go again.

I'm just refusing to get worked up in the "moral decline of counseling profession" when... Well, I expressed my bits but especially when for profit universities are handing them out like candy.

Well, you DID kind of just dump on a profession that has been several decades in the working. Psychology is SRS BIZNS. And, also, I'm going to be a therapist when I grow up... You know, for depression and stuff. And you hurt my feelings when you talk about me like I'm a Zen Balancer.

I'm actually a quite glass-half-full, people-are-basically-good, Carl Rogers-type agnostic.

Hey, me too! I always knew there was more of those out there! Well, except I don't know who the hell Carl Rogers is and I call myself a Catholic for appearances (my mother would kick my ass if I said I wasn't Catholic in front of my relatives).

Carl Rogers, appropriately enough, is often called the father of humanistic psychology.

In the late 1950s, psychologists concerned with advancing a more holistic vision of psychology convened two meetings in Detroit, Michigan. These psychologists, including Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers, and Clark Moustakas, were interested in founding a professional association dedicated to a psychology that focused on uniquely human issues, such as the self, self-actualization, health, hope, love, creativity, nature, being, becoming, individuality, and meaning—that is, the understanding of "the personal nature of the human experience".

[The Rich Port]

Carl Rogers, appropriately enough, is often called the father of humanistic psychology.

In the late 1950s, psychologists concerned with advancing a more holistic vision of psychology convened two meetings in Detroit, Michigan. These psychologists, including Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers, and Clark Moustakas, were interested in founding a professional association dedicated to a psychology that focused on uniquely human issues, such as the self, self-actualization, health, hope, love, creativity, nature, being, becoming, individuality, and meaning—that is, the understanding of "the personal nature of the human experience".

Is it just me, or if the laws of the universe allowed it, we would all father that man's children?

[Unchecked Expansion]

Yeah, I got that all too, but I never made the connection that she refused the university's demands. She just expressed her views. I didn't really get, as you seem to say, that they asked her to swear by the Ethics Code, and then she just said "f u." But it is late here, so maybe my reading comprehension is a little slow.

She's quoted in the first post saying she would not agree to their code of ethics. I don't know how formally she said it, but she's now been reported refusing to affirm it

[Ryadn]

Carl Rogers, appropriately enough, is often called the father of humanistic psychology.

In the late 1950s, psychologists concerned with advancing a more holistic vision of psychology convened two meetings in Detroit, Michigan. These psychologists, including Abraham Maslow, Carl Rogers, and Clark Moustakas, were interested in founding a professional association dedicated to a psychology that focused on uniquely human issues, such as the self, self-actualization, health, hope, love, creativity, nature, being, becoming, individuality, and meaning—that is, the understanding of "the personal nature of the human experience".

Is it just me, or if the laws of the universe allowed it, we would all father that man's children?

Well, maybe just you and I would.

[The Black Forrest]

Actually, I'm in the middle of a fascinating book that takes scientists of all different kinds to task for the lack of academic rigor in many peer-reviewed journals. The author is particularly tough on biologists.

I'm sure his great service will help feed more arguments to creationists and global warming deniers.

I worried about that, too, but he spends several chapters explaining why creationism is fail, as well as eugenics. Indeed, that's part of his point---that allowing studies and papers to be published that are not up to snuff undermines science as a whole.

It happens more then people think. I recently listened to a guy on the radio. He is publishing a book about how the pharmaceutical industry paid many doctors to write glowing stories for the New England Journal of Medicine. Nobody noticed the "infoganda" They have gotten better but it's a growing practice.

Even now BP is traveling up and down the coastal states trying to buy expert opinions on the spill. Luckily many of the scientists are telling them to fuck off.....

Oh, I read about that! Unbalanced, Unhinged, something like that, right?

I want to say yes but I am kicking myself for not writing down the name of the author or the book.

[Gordonopia]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

I actually live in California and belong to a church that strongly supported the anti-gay marriage initiative in 2008. After the passage of Proposition 8, individuals who hold family values sacred were mocked and belittled routinely. Also, homosexuality is celebrated everywhere. I have already stated this. It is celebrated in the media, on college campuses, in public schools and even in some workplaces. Finally, I have no problem discussing this with you or anyone else on this forum. Obviously, we disagree and that is ok. However, I would ask you to refrain from using profanity when talking to me. I haven't cursed at you and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am an adult and am more than capable of discussion without resorting to insults or other inflammatory speech. Thanks.

People who voted for Prop 8 do not 'hold family values sacred'. They hold their own interpretation of what 'should be' above everyone else's, and then cry because people call them out for the blatant bigotry they practice.

Again, I am sorry to point out the blatant flaw in your statement, but I must. Proposition 8 was a large step in the right direction. While it is fashionable to mock Christians and the deeply held beliefs about morality that they hold sacred, I and others who hold those beliefs are derided and ostracized. Who's the bigot now? While I find the practice of homosexuality evil and deeply disturbing, I nevertheless defend the right of those who hold positions contrary to mine to express them freely. My issue is that Christians are not allowed the same courtesy.

[Senestrum]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

I actually live in California and belong to a church that strongly supported the anti-gay marriage initiative in 2008. After the passage of Proposition 8, individuals who hold family values sacred were mocked and belittled routinely. Also, homosexuality is celebrated everywhere. I have already stated this. It is celebrated in the media, on college campuses, in public schools and even in some workplaces. Finally, I have no problem discussing this with you or anyone else on this forum. Obviously, we disagree and that is ok. However, I would ask you to refrain from using profanity when talking to me. I haven't cursed at you and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am an adult and am more than capable of discussion without resorting to insults or other inflammatory speech. Thanks.

People who voted for Prop 8 do not 'hold family values sacred'. They hold their own interpretation of what 'should be' above everyone else's, and then cry because people call them out for the blatant bigotry they practice.

Again, I am sorry to point out the blatant flaw in your statement, but I must. Proposition 8 was a large step in the right direction. While it is fashionable to mock Christians and the deeply held beliefs about morality that they hold sacred, I and others who hold those beliefs are derided and ostracized. Who's the bigot now? While I find the practice of homosexuality evil and deeply disturbing, I nevertheless defend the right of those who hold positions contrary to mine to express them freely. My issue is that Christians are not allowed the same courtesy.

You aren't allowed the courtesy? What, do you pay any attention at all to anything beyond what your preacher tells you? Do you honestly believe that you are in some way being persecuted?

Fuck, you just recently got to express your beliefs by trampling all over the civil rights of an entire set of people, and have so far managed to get away with it. That's not something any other group of people in the US can say right now.

[Barringtonia]

Again, I am sorry to point out the blatant flaw in your statement, but I must. Proposition 8 was a large step in the right direction. While it is fashionable to mock Christians and the deeply held beliefs about morality that they hold sacred, I and others who hold those beliefs are derided and ostracized. Who's the bigot now? While I find the practice of homosexuality evil and deeply disturbing, I nevertheless defend the right of those who hold positions contrary to mine to express them freely. My issue is that Christians are not allowed the same courtesy.

...

Does it not hurt to contort your thoughts like that?

[Cameroi]

for the thoughtlessness of forcing others to observe their practices, if sufficiently extreme: possibly.
for holding those beliefs and expressing them in literary and non-confrontational ways; absolutely not.

[Ryadn]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

I actually live in California and belong to a church that strongly supported the anti-gay marriage initiative in 2008. After the passage of Proposition 8, individuals who hold family values sacred were mocked and belittled routinely. Also, homosexuality is celebrated everywhere. I have already stated this. It is celebrated in the media, on college campuses, in public schools and even in some workplaces. Finally, I have no problem discussing this with you or anyone else on this forum. Obviously, we disagree and that is ok. However, I would ask you to refrain from using profanity when talking to me. I haven't cursed at you and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am an adult and am more than capable of discussion without resorting to insults or other inflammatory speech. Thanks.

People who voted for Prop 8 do not 'hold family values sacred'. They hold their own interpretation of what 'should be' above everyone else's, and then cry because people call them out for the blatant bigotry they practice.

Again, I am sorry to point out the blatant flaw in your statement, but I must. Proposition 8 was a large step in the right direction. While it is fashionable to mock Christians and the deeply held beliefs about morality that they hold sacred, I and others who hold those beliefs are derided and ostracized. Who's the bigot now? While I find the practice of homosexuality evil and deeply disturbing, I nevertheless defend the right of those who hold positions contrary to mine to express them freely. My issue is that Christians are not allowed the same courtesy.

I disagree entirely with your beliefs, but I would defend to the death your right to express them.

What I will not defend is your attempt to deny other human beings basic rights simply because you find them personally repugnant. When your beliefs collide with my ability to make decisions as an informed, consenting adult with another informed, consenting adult, that is when your beliefs become a problem.

[Delator]

While I find the practice of homosexuality evil and deeply disturbing, I nevertheless defend the right of those who hold positions contrary to mine to express them freely. My issue is that Christians are not allowed the same courtesy.

Except that Christians are allowed that courtesy...

Also...ninja'd

[Ryadn]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

I actually live in California and belong to a church that strongly supported the anti-gay marriage initiative in 2008. After the passage of Proposition 8, individuals who hold family values sacred were mocked and belittled routinely. Also, homosexuality is celebrated everywhere. I have already stated this. It is celebrated in the media, on college campuses, in public schools and even in some workplaces. Finally, I have no problem discussing this with you or anyone else on this forum. Obviously, we disagree and that is ok. However, I would ask you to refrain from using profanity when talking to me. I haven't cursed at you and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am an adult and am more than capable of discussion without resorting to insults or other inflammatory speech. Thanks.

People who voted for Prop 8 do not 'hold family values sacred'. They hold their own interpretation of what 'should be' above everyone else's, and then cry because people call them out for the blatant bigotry they practice.

Again, I am sorry to point out the blatant flaw in your statement, but I must. Proposition 8 was a large step in the right direction. While it is fashionable to mock Christians and the deeply held beliefs about morality that they hold sacred, I and others who hold those beliefs are derided and ostracized. Who's the bigot now? While I find the practice of homosexuality evil and deeply disturbing, I nevertheless defend the right of those who hold positions contrary to mine to express them freely. My issue is that Christians are not allowed the same courtesy.

You aren't allowed the courtesy? What, do you pay any attention at all to anything beyond what your preacher tells you? Do you honestly believe that you are in some way being persecuted?

Fuck, you just recently got to express your beliefs by trampling all over the civil rights of an entire set of people, and have so far managed to get away with it. That's not something any other group of people in the US can say right now.

Yeah, but I went to Chicago Pride, and there were a lot of people there who weren't shamed and self-loathing because of their sexual orientation, which directly hurts Christians because... um... they are allergic to rainbows?

[Delator]

Yeah, but I went to Chicago Pride, and there were a lot of people there who weren't shamed and self-loathing because of their sexual orientation, which directly hurts Christians because... um... they are allergic to rainbows?

PTSD from The Flood....

Noah still has flashbacks.

[Meldaria]

She can't be a counselor if she doesn't understand homosexuality. Imagine the harm she could cause to a young homosexual teenager if she were to counsel them.

[Ermarian]

If a religion promotes hatred and intolerance, it has no place in society. There are Christians who identify themselves as followers of a religion of peace and brotherhood and somehow do not hate other people, and these I have no problem with (other than their irritating tendency to distrust rationality). So the defining tenet of Christianity does not appear to be hatred. Consequently, nobody can claim a religious excuse for their hatred - that hatred is all her own. If she values that hatred more highly than the pursuit of knowledge, good riddance.

[Gordonopia]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

I actually live in California and belong to a church that strongly supported the anti-gay marriage initiative in 2008. After the passage of Proposition 8, individuals who hold family values sacred were mocked and belittled routinely. Also, homosexuality is celebrated everywhere. I have already stated this. It is celebrated in the media, on college campuses, in public schools and even in some workplaces. Finally, I have no problem discussing this with you or anyone else on this forum. Obviously, we disagree and that is ok. However, I would ask you to refrain from using profanity when talking to me. I haven't cursed at you and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am an adult and am more than capable of discussion without resorting to insults or other inflammatory speech. Thanks.

People who voted for Prop 8 do not 'hold family values sacred'. They hold their own interpretation of what 'should be' above everyone else's, and then cry because people call them out for the blatant bigotry they practice.

Again, I am sorry to point out the blatant flaw in your statement, but I must. Proposition 8 was a large step in the right direction. While it is fashionable to mock Christians and the deeply held beliefs about morality that they hold sacred, I and others who hold those beliefs are derided and ostracized. Who's the bigot now? While I find the practice of homosexuality evil and deeply disturbing, I nevertheless defend the right of those who hold positions contrary to mine to express them freely. My issue is that Christians are not allowed the same courtesy.

You aren't allowed the courtesy? What, do you pay any attention at all to anything beyond what your preacher tells you? Do you honestly believe that you are in some way being persecuted?

Fuck, you just recently got to express your beliefs by trampling all over the civil rights of an entire set of people, and have so far managed to get away with it. That's not something any other group of people in the US can say right now.

I do believe that Christians are persecuted for their beliefs all of the time. Society is replete with examples ranging from public school curriculum, treatment of individuals of faith with scorn and contempt by the media and by an increasingly secular society, bogus separation of church and state claims etc. Also, what "civil rights" are you referring to? I know that that is a popular buzzword that is thrown around by pro-gay liberals all of the time, but it fundamentally lacks substance. Even if I did buy that argument, which I don't, that is a two way street. My civil rights are violated when I am forced to accept homosexuality in a public school, or at diversity training at the workplace, or when I am told that my deeply held beliefs are stupid and that by not supporting sin I am somehow a bad person. Funny that no one acknowledges the blatant discrimination that people of faith experience on a daily basis, but are quick to come to the rescue of homosexual "victims". Victims of what? Not getting their way? Not being 100% successful in corrupting the family? Hmmmmm.