Should Students be Expelled for Religious/Sexual Beliefs?

[Bramborska]

Oh for frigg's sake. This isn't that big of a deal. The National Board of Certified Counselors has a certain code of ethics that it requires practitioners to follow, very much like the Hippocratic Oath in the rest of medicine, setting out guidelines for ethic practices, like not having sexual relations with your patients, not involving themselves in situations where there is a conflict of interest with their patients and keeping all medical records sealed and secured. Straight forward stuff really. Unfortunately for this student, one of the stipulations is as follows;

12. Through an awareness of the impact of stereotyping and unwarranted discrimination (e.g., biases based on age, disability, ethnicity, gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation), certified counselors guard the individual rights and
personal dignity of the client in the counseling relationship.

Which basically means that the counselor cannot come under the influence of bias when treating patients, regardless of what they may feel personally about the person(s)/situation and must provide the same care as they do for everyone else. This student, evidently, cannot in good conscience follow proper medical consensus on the issue, because of her morality or her religion, and thus should not be a counselor. Period.

Yeah... You ever read the Hippocratic Oath before? Something about no abortions, no euthanasia... I think I'll pass.

Besides which, there's a big difference between attaining a graduate degree and performing counseling in the United States.

I mean, if you really want to get technical; you should say "thus should not be a counselor... Within the US. Period."

And, of course, if you looked into it a bit further you'd realize that violations of the Code of Ethics is up to... Well, the actual statement issuing entity. Not Augusta University. Not yourself.

[Kreanoltha]

The HIV virus is small enough to get through the rubber of the condom

This is an often-exposed lie, widely circulated by the Catholic Church.

You want proof? Have at it! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1411838

[Unchecked Expansion]

Also, what's this about gays doing it for attention?

Well dahling, persecution is quite fabulous donchano?

Oh, let's not talk about persecution. Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

That's why law's have been passed affirming the homosexual idea of marriage as the only acceptable form, and removing recognition of Christian marriage

[Unhealthy2]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

[Soheran]

A decent article on this subject (i.e. one not from World Nut Daily) can be found at Inside Higher Ed.

In short, the student was not expelled for her religious beliefs. She was expelled because she could not separate her religious beliefs from her role as a counselor. Her conduct was not consistent with standards of professional ethics in the field, nor with the reasonable academic policy of the school that relied upon those standards. If she cannot do her job because of her religious beliefs, she should find another job.

[Bramborska]

The HIV virus is small enough to get through the rubber of the condom

This is an often-exposed lie, widely circulated by the Catholic Church.

You want proof? Have at it! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1411838

RIGHT WANG EXTRAMISM EBIL EBIL!

[Lacadaemon]

Which basically means that the counselor cannot come under the influence of bias when treating patients, regardless of what they may feel personally about the person(s)/situation and must provide the same care as they do for everyone else. This student, evidently, cannot in good conscience follow proper medical consensus on the issue, because of her morality or her religion, and thus should not be a counselor. Period.

Yeah, that was the sort of bit I was wondering about. But can a counselor restrict their practice? In other words, are there certified counselors out there that do the Xtian only thing like this bint would?

WTF really is a counselor anyway? Someone help me out here. Too lazy to google.

[Caninope]

A decent article on this subject (i.e. one not from World Nut Daily) can be found at Inside Higher Ed.

In short, the student was not expelled for her religious beliefs. She was expelled because she could not separate her religious beliefs from her role as a counselor. Her conduct was not consistent with standards of professional ethics in the field, nor with the reasonable academic policy of the school that relied upon those standards. If she cannot do her job because of her religious beliefs, she should find another job.

Except that she doesn't have a job as a counselor, now does she?

[Vetalia]

The difference is that this is a public college. They can't deny people for their beliefs but foreign governments or private organizations (to an extent within the US) can.

I imagine it depends on if the belief interferes with academic integrity. If, for example, someone refused to handle dead animals or prepared meat because of their religious beliefs it really wouldn't make too much sense to allow them to continue in, say, a meat production program or veterinary medicine. They wouldn't be capable of any satisfactory academic completion of the degree and so awarding it would erode the credibility of the program.

[Delator]

...her best bet would be to pursue a religious institution for their counseling services, not a secular one. That way, her religious beliefs and counseling responsibilities won't conflict.

If you can't stand the heat, get out of the kitchen...if you really want to act according to your beliefs, you have to show initiative and take matters in to your own hands. You can't expect others to give you special treatment.

---

Of course, it's pretty sad our society is at a point where so many people think the best solution to all their problems is not to change themselves or to take initiative and pursue a path concordant with their beliefs but to try to force others to change through lawsuits.

Yeah, some people are all about "personal responsibility"...until it applies to them.

[Unhealthy2]

I'm curious. What exactly do I have to gain from being gay? There must have been a reason for me to make the decision, but I can never put my finger on it, especially in the face of my previously loving family who now hates and disowned me for it. Perhaps you can help me understand why I chose this, because I certainly can't figure it out.

Because you hate god and want to serve Satan, or some other equally intellectually bankrupt unfalsifiable hypothesis.

[Unchecked Expansion]

The HIV virus is small enough to get through the rubber of the condom

This is an often-exposed lie, widely circulated by the Catholic Church.

You want proof? Have at it! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1411838

'Proper use of a latex condom can reduce HIV infection by 4 orders of magnitude'

[Wamitoria]

The HIV virus is small enough to get through the rubber of the condom

This is an often-exposed lie, widely circulated by the Catholic Church.

You want proof? Have at it! http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1411838

These findings demonstrated that use of latex condoms can significantly reduce the risk of HIV transmission, but it does not eliminate that risk.

Isn't this true for almost all STD's?

[Avenio]

Oh for frigg's sake. This isn't that big of a deal. The National Board of Certified Counselors has a certain code of ethics that it requires practitioners to follow, very much like the Hippocratic Oath in the rest of medicine, setting out guidelines for ethic practices, like not having sexual relations with your patients, not involving themselves in situations where there is a conflict of interest with their patients and keeping all medical records sealed and secured. Straight forward stuff really. Unfortunately for this student, one of the stipulations is as follows;

12. Through an awareness of the impact of stereotyping and unwarranted discrimination (e.g., biases based on age, disability, ethnicity, gender, race, religion, or sexual orientation), certified counselors guard the individual rights and
personal dignity of the client in the counseling relationship.

Which basically means that the counselor cannot come under the influence of bias when treating patients, regardless of what they may feel personally about the person(s)/situation and must provide the same care as they do for everyone else. This student, evidently, cannot in good conscience follow proper medical consensus on the issue, because of her morality or her religion, and thus should not be a counselor. Period.

Yeah... You ever read the Hippocratic Oath before? Something about no abortions, no euthanasia... I think I'll pass.

Besides which, there's a big difference between attaining a graduate degree and performing counseling in the United States.

I mean, if you really want to get technical; you should say "thus should not be a counselor... Within the US. Period."

And, of course, if you looked into it a bit further you'd realize that violations of the Code of Ethics is up to... Well, the actual statement issuing entity. Not Augusta University. Not yourself.

Firstly, I don't know what Hippocratic Oath you're reading, but this is the modern one;

I swear to fulfill, to the best of my ability and judgment, this covenant:

I will respect the hard-won scientific gains of those physicians in whose steps I walk, and gladly share such knowledge as is mine with those who are to follow.

I will apply, for the benefit of the sick, all measures [that] are required, avoiding those twin traps of overtreatment and therapeutic nihilism.

I will remember that there is art to medicine as well as science, and that warmth, sympathy, and understanding may outweigh the surgeon's knife or the chemist's drug.

I will not be ashamed to say "I know not," nor will I fail to call in my colleagues when the skills of another are needed for a patient's recovery.

I will respect the privacy of my patients, for their problems are not disclosed to me that the world may know. Most especially must I tread with care in matters of life and death. If it is given to me to save a life, all thanks. But it may also be within my power to take a life; this awesome responsibility must be faced with great humbleness and awareness of my own frailty. Above all, I must not play at God.

I will remember that I do not treat a fever chart, a cancerous growth, but a sick human being, whose illness may affect the person's family and economic stability. My responsibility includes these related problems, if I am to care adequately for the sick.

I will prevent disease whenever I can, for prevention is preferable to cure.

I will remember that I remain a member of society, with special obligations to all my fellow human beings, those sound of mind and body as well as the infirm.

If I do not violate this oath, may I enjoy life and art, respected while I live and remembered with affection thereafter. May I always act so as to preserve the finest traditions of my calling and may I long experience the joy of healing those who seek my help.

Beyond that, you're absolutely correct. However, the fact that she refuses to sign this particular Code of Ethics (Necessary for accreditation in the US) will essentially blacklist her if she attempts to go anywhere else to attempt to achieve accreditation or open a practice.

[Unchecked Expansion]

A decent article on this subject (i.e. one not from World Nut Daily) can be found at Inside Higher Ed.

In short, the student was not expelled for her religious beliefs. She was expelled because she could not separate her religious beliefs from her role as a counselor. Her conduct was not consistent with standards of professional ethics in the field, nor with the reasonable academic policy of the school that relied upon those standards. If she cannot do her job because of her religious beliefs, she should find another job.

Except that she doesn't have a job as a counselor, now does she?

Part of her course is demonstrating the ethics required for her qualification

[Unhealthy2]

'Proper use of a latex condom can reduce HIV infection by 4 orders of magnitude'

That's like citing a paper on how accurate radiometric dating is in order to support the idea that the Earth is 6,000 years old. Don't you just love the fail there?

[Kreanoltha]

So what I'm hearing is that it's okay to discriminate against religious people, but not people who choose to be gay. There is no double standard there at all. Nope. You, my friend, are tolerant.

Think of it this way: would a Church accept me as a priest if I stated that I didn't believe in God? No, they'd be stupid to wouldn't they? Nor would you say they're just being intolerant, it's just that being a priest kind of requires belief in god.

Well guess what, being a counselor requires toleration of homosexuals.

That has no bearing on this. The school is the one discriminating. And she never said that they were evil, just that they chose to be gay. <sarcasm>That is so in tolerant of her. She's a bigot right out of 1950s white suburbia.</sarcasm>

[Unchecked Expansion]

'Proper use of a latex condom can reduce HIV infection by 4 orders of magnitude'

That's like citing a paper on how accurate radiometric dating is in order to support the idea that the Earth is 6,000 years old. Don't you just love the fail there?

Well obviously because it isn't 100% FLAWLESS the science is wrong and we might as well not bother.

This is also why the army should not wear body armour. After all, it won't stop every bullet

[Gordonopia]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

I actually live in California and belong to a church that strongly supported the anti-gay marriage initiative in 2008. After the passage of Proposition 8, individuals who hold family values sacred were mocked and belittled routinely. Also, homosexuality is celebrated everywhere. I have already stated this. It is celebrated in the media, on college campuses, in public schools and even in some workplaces. Finally, I have no problem discussing this with you or anyone else on this forum. Obviously, we disagree and that is ok. However, I would ask you to refrain from using profanity when talking to me. I haven't cursed at you and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am an adult and am more than capable of discussion without resorting to insults or other inflammatory speech. Thanks.

[Unhealthy2]

I would consider myself economically centrist, but apparently the fact that I don't think gays inferior means that I'm far left wing. Somehow a social position of mine means that I'm left wing, but left and right are economic scales. The fuck?

[The Rich Port]

That has no bearing on this. The school is the one discriminating. And she never said that they were evil, just that they chose to be gay. <sarcasm>That is so in tolerant of her. She's a bigot right out of 1950s white suburbia.</sarcasm>

Nah, she's just stupid.

[Tmutarakhan]

Another source...

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2010/07/2 ... 59274.html

It sounds like Counseling is the worst possible profession for this person to try to go in to.

Indeed...

"Keeton's own e-mail response to the faculty members who allegedly were pressuring her to adopt a pro-homosexual belief system defines the dispute.

"In order to finish the counseling program you are requiring me to alter my objective beliefs and also to commit now that if I ever may have a client who wants me to affirm their decision to have an abortion or engage in gay, lesbian or transgender behavior, I will do that. I can't alter my biblical beliefs, and I will not affirm the morality of those behaviors in a counseling situation."

Then you can't be a counselor. It's that simple.

She probably should have thought of that little detail before entering the graduate program.

Instead she want's an accredited professional institution to adjust to her beliefs, while crying foul that her beliefs are being disrespected. Talk about hypocrisy.

Letting a bigot be your counselor is akin to letting a Christian Scientist be your surgeon...probably not the best idea in the world.

Augusta State is just protecting itself, as they should, from potential legal action later. The school was essentially screwed either way, and I'm glad to see they didn't cave to this students whims.

Thanks for the link. It led to this link, discussing a parallel case in which a Michigan student filed a similar suit, quickly dismissed, and has already lost at the state supreme court level (which is noteworthy because the Michigan Supreme Court is the most anti-gay in the country).

[Unhealthy2]

Well obviously because it isn't 100% FLAWLESS the science is wrong and we might as well not bother.

This is also why the army should not wear body armour. After all, it won't stop every bullet

Ah yes, I've forgotten the all or nothing worldview these people hold.

[You-Gi-Owe]

Then you can't be a counselor. It's that simple.

She probably should have thought of that little detail before entering the graduate program.

Instead she want's an accredited professional institution to adjust to her beliefs, while crying foul that her beliefs are being disrespected. Talk about hypocrisy.

Letting a bigot be your counselor is akin to letting a Christian Scientist be your surgeon...probably not the best idea in the world.

Augusta State is just protecting itself, as they should, from potential legal action later. The school was essentially screwed either way, and I'm glad to see they didn't cave to this students whims.

Thanks for the link, Delator. I've editted it into the OP, even though I usually distrust Huffington Post.

I really don't see the problem that you do. Did you know that it was only in the 1960's that the American Psychiatric Association decided to reclassify homosexuality from a mental disorder? I imagine that there were a lot of counselors that disagreed with the classifcation change at that time. If this event had been happening in that time period, I have no doubt that she would have been allowed to continue in the program. People's idea of "normal" change from decade to decade. The entire gay rights movement appears to be an attempt to re-define "normal" to some people/society-at-large.

[Unchecked Expansion]

Christians are routinely persecuted and ostracized while homosexuality is celebrated and accepted.

Where in the FUCK do you live? It sure ain't on Earth. You guys have had the keys to Western Civilization for like 1,500 years now. You're still in the overwhelming majority. There are still laws that force non-Christians to live by some of the laws of Christianity in some areas in the US. Basically, you're essentially saying the fact that you're being told that you're not allowed to force everyone to pay lipservice to Christianity and that the US can't treat Christianity different than any other religion means you're being persecuted.

Also, how many places is homosexuality celebrated? Far fewer than the number of churches, I'll tell you that much. Far fewer than the number of politicians that feel the need to constantly remind us that they're Christian. I'll tell you that.

I actually live in California and belong to a church that strongly supported the anti-gay marriage initiative in 2008. After the passage of Proposition 8, individuals who hold family values sacred were mocked and belittled routinely. Also, homosexuality is celebrated everywhere. I have already stated this. It is celebrated in the media, on college campuses, in public schools and even in some workplaces. Finally, I have no problem discussing this with you or anyone else on this forum. Obviously, we disagree and that is ok. However, I would ask you to refrain from using profanity when talking to me. I haven't cursed at you and I really don't appreciate it. I'm not sure how old you are, but I am an adult and am more than capable of discussion without resorting to insults or other inflammatory speech. Thanks.

So your evidence that you are persecuted is that you passed a law persecuting others?