Hollywood Has Lied Again! Western Vs Eastern Martial Arts

[Daistallia 2104]

Jap is not a racial slur, it is an abbreviation. Nip, Gook, Slant-eyed yellow monkey are racial slurs. You might as well claim Japan itself is an offensive name having no connection with Nippon.

It most certainly is.

im the kendo champion of Kaibara High School, Tamba, Hyogo.

Bullshit.

[Port Arcana]

I saw that movie. It was pretty good, but you have to realise that it was made from a sino-centric point of view.

Although, I would generally believe that Eastern Martial Arts > Western Martials Arts. But guns beat all.

[Rolamec]

Is fearless a Hollywood movie?

Have you seen any american old movie about the chinese? How they paint them like decadent delinquents usually?

I think Fearless wasn't so cruel about westerners as many western movies about orientals I have seen...

Whoah, whoah, slow down. We stopped doing that ages ago. We had the stereotypical Asian thing going from the 30s-60s (like Charlie Chan, yellowface, etc.) But hey we stopped that, look at Jackie Chan, Jet Li, the likes? Hell everybody likes the ideas of being ninjas?

Yes, folks racism has ended in the US.

[Thevenin]

The thing is, it's really about the artist, not the art. In most cases anyways. Fencing vs Kendo, fencing wins on the basis of higher mobility, agility and speed of attack. Not to take anything away from kendo, it's just the way it is. Western boxing vs traditional Kung fu could also be an exception, save for a few southern styles IE wing chun or southern praying mantis.

[Buffett and Colbert]

I am well aware Deadliest Warrior is not perfectly accurate, but I have yet to invision a way in which the samurai can get past a shield. A samurai on horseback with a bow won't be able to pierce armour, and I have to give the knight the edge when it comes to jousting.

Katana versus rapier is much fairer than katana versus sword and shield.

You have a longbow. The other person does not.

I hope more obviousness is not needed?

id have to say that because westerners were larger than easterners they had more brutish weapons and relied more on power while the smaller lighter guys of the east relied on speed.

You might say that. But you'd be wrong.

Wow way to be a dick about it.

Overreaction, much?

I know right

No, you probably don't.

[The Black Forrest]

Jap is not a racial slur, it is an abbreviation. Nip, Gook, Slant-eyed yellow monkey are racial slurs. You might as well claim Japan itself is an offensive name having no connection with Nippon.

Where you from lad?

Jap in the US is a racial slur......

[Copenhagen Metropolis]

"Hollywood Has Lied Again" - Oh no they didn't!? I'm truly shocked! I thought Hollywood was kinda like a factbook or something. This is really disappointing news.

[Daistallia 2104]

Japanese-Germanic in Ethnicity, Japanese-Canadian in residence.

If that were actually the case, you would know "Jap" was a slur, so again I call bullshit.

Good day to you.

[Miklesia]

I've been fascinated by medieval combat for years. Medieval Europe is badly underrated in a great deal of areas, being regarded as backwards and barbaric. Knights are considered to be lumbering, clumsy fools and their swords sharpened clubs. The East is badly overrated, what with countless misconceptions about ninjas, samurai, and katanas.

Sure, katanas are quick, sharp, and deadly in the slash, but they're lacking the versatility of comparable Western swords. Also, it was somewhat brittle. The zweihander, meanwhile, had superior reach, durability, and versatility. It was heavier and slower, but with parrying hooks and sturdiness, it was an excellent defensive weapon. The ricasso enabled the zweihander to be half-sworded, the pommel balanced the blade and could be used to bash enemies, large rings next to the crossguard let the wielder to use powerful thrusts, and even the crossguard could be used as a weapon.

[Daistallia 2104]

It's use in a few propaganda posters due to its catchiness and rhymability does not make it a racial slur.

Call any native Japanese a jap and they wouldn't know what the hell you were addressing. For word to be a slur, it kinda has to be understood to be an insult or derived from an insulting word, not a fucking abbreviation.

Jap
   /dʒæp/ Show Spelled[jap] Show IPA
–adjective, nounSlang: Disparaging and Offensive.
Japanese.

http://dictionary.reference.com/browse/jap

Japanese-American Group Fights Slur

Published: Monday, April 21, 2003 at 2:14 a.m.
Last Modified: Monday, April 21, 2003 at 12:00 a.m.

Many Americans used a shortened, derogatory version of the word Japanese when the United States was fighting Japan during World War II.

Some are still doing it in advertisements, and a civil rights group wants to stop the practice.

The Japanese American Citizens League is starting a campaign to rid newspapers and telephone directories of ads that use the word.

Many of the ads are for car repair shops, such as The Jap Shop in Boca Raton, that specialize in fixing Japanese vehicles.

The league found more than 2,000 such listings in Florida several years ago when it did a survey. That was the most in any of the half-dozen states that were studied.

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/ ... ofile=1004

Several years ago, the Japanese American Citizens League, the nation's oldest and largest Asian-American civil rights organization, researched how many listings using the slur "Jap" they could find in half a dozen states. Florida had the highest number, at more than 2,000.

"My guess is that there's a greater insensitivity to Japanese and Japanese-Americans simply because there have been so few Asians in [Florida] historically," said JACL Executive Director John Tateishi from his office in California. "They're uninformed, and hopefully, once made aware of the derogatory nature, would stop using the word `Jap.' If they continue, then it's a totally different matter."

http://www.modelminority.com/joomla/ind ... &Itemid=56

Jap
Pronunciation: \ˈjap\
Function: noun or adjective
Date: 1886

usually disparaging : japanese

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/jap

Due to your trolling I'm putting you on ignore now.

[Militire]

I would also like to say something about armor. At their hights, both cultures had good styles of armor. For example ( As I' m French/ English Canadian and distantly related to knights of templar members and of the normal French knights, so I know more about them) wealthy, 15th century French knights had around 3.4 inch steel plate armor, ( for heavier preferances) iron mail, heavy leather vests( which makes the mail much more effective), and then, ordinary cloths. From my extremly limited knowledge of Japenese samuria armor (correct me please), it includes 1-2 inch steel armor, heavy studded leather, and something that involves pig intestine; while ninja armor is almost non-existant ( for the majority of cases) and Chinese warrior armor is slightly heavier than samuria, though not as widely found and not usualy well made. In popular culture, It usualy shows medieval armor as heavy, uncomferable, and inflexible, while Eastern armor is light and flexible, as well as almost impenetirble. I don't know about Eastern armor, But I know that well-made expensive armor fits the wearer like a glove, and there are some recordes of knights being able to cartwheel in heavy armor, as well as being almost impenitarble. So why does popular culture emphasise that Easternism is beter that Westernism, even at the West's forte: heavy armor.

[Thevenin]

I think it depends on which era you're considering. The story of Agincourt holds that several knights (Including the Duke of York, who died this way) fell off their horses into the mud and wouldn't be able to get up, and drowned. But over the years, the heavy, cumbersome armor became lighter and more practical than just big thick metal plates, discounting tourney armor of course. I am not discounting the effectiveness of the plate armor of the day, but it was a little cumbersome.

[Brandenburg-Altmark]

I would also like to say something about armor. At their hights, both cultures had good styles of armor. For example ( As I' m French/ English Canadian and distantly related to knights of templar members and of the normal French knights, so I know more about them) wealthy, 15th century French knights had around 3.4 inch steel plate armor, ( for heavier preferances) iron mail, heavy leather vests( which makes the mail much more effective), and then, ordinary cloths. From my extremly limited knowledge of Japenese samuria armor (correct me please), it includes 1-2 inch steel armor, heavy studded leather, and something that involves pig intestine; while ninja armor is almost non-existant ( for the majority of cases) and Chinese warrior armor is slightly heavier than samuria, though not as widely found and not usualy well made. In popular culture, It usualy shows medieval armor as heavy, uncomferable, and inflexible, while Eastern armor is light and flexible, as well as almost impenetirble. I don't know about Eastern armor, But I know that well-made expensive armor fits the wearer like a glove, and there are some recordes of knights being able to cartwheel in heavy armor, as well as being almost impenitarble. So why does popular culture emphasise that Easternism is beter that Westernism, even at the West's forte: heavy armor.

From most accounts, the Ninja simply dressed in a similar manner to a modern black ops team. Black clothes, balaclava, not much else. Japanese armor was much more focused on stylized design as time went on and the Samurai became less important on the battlefield while the peasant conscripts took over. The reason why the west was better at armor was simple; layers. As you said, knights would wear their partial plate over the top of chainmail, which was itself over the top of boiled leather, which was over padded wool. It was only a fully knocked longbow with bodkin arrows that could really pierce it, and then an arms race developed between armor and arrows. Ring mail was developed to stop arrowheads, while arrowheads would become smaller and smaller to compensate.

[Avenio]

I would also like to say something about armor. At their hights, both cultures had good styles of armor. For example ( As I' m French/ English Canadian and distantly related to knights of templar members and of the normal French knights, so I know more about them) wealthy, 15th century French knights had around 3.4 inch steel plate armor, ( for heavier preferances) iron mail, heavy leather vests( which makes the mail much more effective), and then, ordinary cloths.

Yes, but most noblemen of the medieval era would scoff at fighting off of horseback, as it was (If you'll forgive the pun) beneath them. The elaborate plate armour the nobility of Europe wore had to be built to be comfortable for use on a horse and rigid in order to assist the wearer in using their lance. The consequence of this was that much of the classical plate armour we see in popular culture would be very cumbersome when down on the ground in a melee, thanks to the lack of visibility from the helmet and the inflexibility of the plates. During the period in which infantry began to develop into its own, it would be much more common for the pikemen and spearmen of the Medieval period to wear lighter lamellar or chainmail for just this purpose.

From my extremly limited knowledge of Japenese samuria armor (correct me please), it includes 1-2 inch steel armor, heavy studded leather, and something that involves pig intestine; while ninja armor is almost non-existant ( for the majority of cases)

and Chinese warrior armor is slightly heavier than samuria, though not as widely found and not usualy well made. In popular culture, It usualy shows medieval armor as heavy, uncomferable, and inflexible, while Eastern armor is light and flexible, as well as almost impenetirble.[/quote]

I probably know even less than you about Eastern armour, but I'll try to debate this as best I can. From what I can tell of Chinese military history, the Chinese military favoured the use of lamellar armour rather than the elaborate mail and plate armour of Europe. Lamellar was strong enough to take an arrow or a sword blow if partially deflected, and was much, much more flexible. In personal combat, this means that a soldier wearing Chinese-style lamellar would be much, much more maneuverable than a dismounted knight in plate mail, and this translates into better survivability. (The ability to dodge blows often means that the armour doesn't need to absorb as many shots and lowers the chance of a blow getting through)

I don't know about Eastern armor, But I know that well-made expensive armor fits the wearer like a glove, and there are some recordes of knights being able to cartwheel in heavy armor, as well as being almost impenitarble. So why does popular culture emphasise that Easternism is beter that Westernism, even at the West's forte: heavy armor.

I rather doubt the cartwheeling bit, unless the soldier in question was wearing something like plate mail instead, but the plate armour of Europe was meant to fit the wearer well, but not to impart a particular amount of flexibility, just comfort.

[Aggicificicerous]

You have a longbow. The other person does not.

I hope more obviousness is not needed?

Have you ever tried to fire a longbow while mounted on a horse?

I hope more "obviousness" is not needed.

[Ancient and Holy Terra]

Have you ever tried to fire a longbow while mounted on a horse?

They have. For over a thousand years.

Yabusame remains an essential part of Japan's cultural heritage, and it's a common sight at decent-sized Shinto shrines if you know when and where to look.

As an aside, "Jap" can't be anything other than racist. I don't even know how this can be argued.

[Zephie]

Have you ever tried to fire a longbow while mounted on a horse?

They have. For over a thousand years.

Yabusame remains an essential part of Japan's cultural heritage, and it's a common sight at decent-sized Shinto shrines if you know when and where to look.

As an aside, "Jap" can't be anything other than racist. I don't even know how this can be argued.

Saying "Jap" isn't racist. That's like saying "Jew" is racist. What are you supposed to replace the word with?

[The Black Forrest]

Have you ever tried to fire a longbow while mounted on a horse?

They have. For over a thousand years.

Yabusame remains an essential part of Japan's cultural heritage, and it's a common sight at decent-sized Shinto shrines if you know when and where to look.

As an aside, "Jap" can't be anything other than racist. I don't even know how this can be argued.

Saying "Jap" isn't racist. That's like saying "Jew" is racist. What are you supposed to replace the word with?

Hmmmm so the dictionaries are wrong?

And for that matter Jews are a race?

[Ravea]

About the usual samurai vs knight debate, here:
http://www.thearma.org/essays/knightvs.htm

The knight wins. Deadliest warrior did an episode on this, and the samurai couldn't even beat a Spartan from B.C. Simply put, the samurai has no answer to a shield, and the knight's armour is of superior quality.

Pretty much this. A Katana is by no means designed to cut through heavy steel armor, though it can make decent dents in it. It's a weapon designed to kill with a single, precise blow, as opposed to a bastard sword or longsword, which are sturdier and more designed to hack, slash and thwomp.

Again, it all depends on who is using the weapon and most of all based on skill levels. Even the most heavily armored amateur knight has no chance of taking down an unarmed, unarmored master of combat.

[Ravea]

From most accounts, the Ninja simply dressed in a similar manner to a modern black ops team. Black clothes, balaclava, not much else. Japanese armor was much more focused on stylized design as time went on and the Samurai became less important on the battlefield while the peasant conscripts took over. The reason why the west was better at armor was simple; layers. As you said, knights would wear their partial plate over the top of chainmail, which was itself over the top of boiled leather, which was over padded wool. It was only a fully knocked longbow with bodkin arrows that could really pierce it, and then an arms race developed between armor and arrows. Ring mail was developed to stop arrowheads, while arrowheads would become smaller and smaller to compensate.

Absolute Hollywood Hogwash. Ninja as a whole almost never dressed in black; they instead disguised themselves most often as peasants so as not to draw attention to themselves and blend in to society. More rarely, some Ninja adopted alternate Samurai persons, allowing them to gain access to places only people of high birth and standing could go. The ninja-wearing-black thing came from Kabuki theater, where the stage hands dress entirely in black as not to break the reality of the scene. Some Kabuki plays dealt with the adventures on Ninja, and would have an actor dressed like a stage hand to surprise the audience.

In short, by no means did Ninja dress in dark black constantly-perhaps if a special mission called for extreme stealth, they would, but more often they were dressed as innocent-looking lower class members of society, making their assassinations completely unexpected.

[Ancient and Holy Terra]

Saying "Jap" isn't racist. That's like saying "Jew" is racist. What are you supposed to replace the word with?

Perhaps "Jewish".

[Siromizu]

Japanese-Germanic in Ethnicity, Japanese-Canadian in residence.

If that were actually the case, you would know "Jap" was a slur, so again I call bullshit.

Good day to you.

Japanese speaker here. Japanese people speaking English use the term "Jap". Contextually, if I said "DEM DURTY FUKEN JAP BUGEYED MONKEYS" that would be offensive, but the term "Jap" on its own doesn't offend, or at least, it doesn't offend the Japanese.

ITT: People who don't know what they are talking about pretending to know what they are talking about. Bar a few enlightened posters, ignorance has made this thread a big lump of shit.

[Katganistan]

Firearms were introduced to Japan by the Portugese in the 16th century. Europeans at that time were already using pike and shot formations.

The first I'm well aware of, and probably know more about than you do. As for the second, Japan was using pure firearm units well before it became common in Japan. It was, among other things, the reason Hideyoshi was able to unify the nation and make such headway in Korea.

And as I stated in the next line, the Japs didn't develop pikes nor had concern for cavalry, allowing them to use "pure" formations. Europeans on the otherhand had to develop the bayonet first due to cavalry being a problem.

The Japs didn't have to worry about the pike so much seeing as how their cavalry were inferior to knights.

Use of racial slurs is neither appropriate nor appreciated. I've noted racist tones in various other posts you've made.

Jap is not a racial slur, it is an abbreviation. Nip, Gook, Slant-eyed yellow monkey are racial slurs. You might as well claim Japan itself is an offensive name having no connection with Nippon.

For your second point, I agree on the subject of rapiers and foils, nasty useless little things. Sabres however are far superior to oversized sashkas made of inferior metal. Aside from the fact that kendo doesn't teach any technique rather then "hit your opponent witha stick".

You are clearly ignorant of any kendo training. The training I did in my first kendo class was as detailed and complex as that of my first fencing class.

Cool story bro, im the kendo champion of Kaibara High School, Tamba, Hyogo.

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&sour ... c5_X&pbx=1

Wrong. It's an offensive term. Don't use it again, please.
Internet memes like "Cool story bro" are also not allowed. Knock it off.

[Siromizu]

perhaps if a special mission called for extreme stealth

Even then, it would have been dark green (for better camouflage) or dark red (to hide bloodstains) rather than black.

[Tekania]

Hi NS. Recently, I watched the movie Fearless. It pissed me off and made me draw paralels between that and other shows and films (Deadliest Warrior sometimes comes to mind) that constsantly destroy the reputation of Western armed and unarmed martial arts in the eyes of the last few generations at the beheadst of Eastern martial arts. It makes even the most trained western knight and soldiers look like ill trained barbarians who think that brute force will beat through anything and wearing a massive amount of(usualy badly made) armor will save them. They are also usualy arrogant or tragicaly self doubting. This is opposed to the fast, discplened, and extremly (and apparently justifibly) confident warriors of the Far East. This goes the same for weapons of each faction: Western bastard swords and Eastern Katana, and the such, as well as armors.What have, you, NS, to say about this. (PS. This is not remotely a rascial thing, so don't try and bring it up)

Fearless isn't a product of "Hollywood", it's a Honk Kong and Chinese produced feature.