are people really smart enough to care for themselves?

[Nort Eurasia]

Please, refrain for saying things like that. This is a good thread and I don't want to see it getting locked for an argument that could be started by saying things like that.

you dont want his opinion in this thread?

No, it's not that. I just don't want some robust argument started.

[The Adrian Empire]

Please, refrain for saying things like that. This is a good thread and I don't want to see it getting locked for an argument that could be started by saying things like that.

you dont want his opinion in this thread?

True as his statement may be , it's a trollbait, ripe for exploitation which would degrade this thread. Everyone should be able to have their opinion but they should voice it without baiting emotional arguments.

[Femifascism]

The obvious and lasting consequences of such stupid consumption are strangely unable to deter these morons and make them change their ways. You can regard that as a challenge to natural selection.

I don't get how you see it as a challenge to natural selection, it is natural selection at work.

Actually, I was just making a satirical remark on the evils of capitalism . Coca Cola is made of mostly harmful substances.

[Ifreann]

The obvious and lasting consequences of such stupid consumption are strangely unable to deter these morons and make them change their ways. You can regard that as a challenge to natural selection.

I don't get how you see it as a challenge to natural selection, it is natural selection at work.

Actually, I was just making a satirical remark on the evils of capitalism . Coca Cola is made of mostly harmful substances.

Water is made of mostly harmful elements.

[The Adrian Empire]

The obvious and lasting consequences of such stupid consumption are strangely unable to deter these morons and make them change their ways. You can regard that as a challenge to natural selection.

I don't get how you see it as a challenge to natural selection, it is natural selection at work.

Actually, I was just making a satirical remark on the evils of capitalism . Coca Cola is made of mostly harmful substances.

Water is made of mostly harmful elements.

Egad! Do you mean the elements have conspired against us?

[Nort Eurasia]

The obvious and lasting consequences of such stupid consumption are strangely unable to deter these morons and make them change their ways. You can regard that as a challenge to natural selection.

I don't get how you see it as a challenge to natural selection, it is natural selection at work.

Actually, I was just making a satirical remark on the evils of capitalism . Coca Cola is made of mostly harmful substances.

Water is made of mostly harmful elements.

Egad! Do you mean the elements have conspired against us?

Or have we conspired against the elements...?

[Buffett and Colbert]

The obvious and lasting consequences of such stupid consumption are strangely unable to deter these morons and make them change their ways. You can regard that as a challenge to natural selection.

I don't get how you see it as a challenge to natural selection, it is natural selection at work.

Actually, I was just making a satirical remark on the evils of capitalism . Coca Cola is made of mostly harmful substances.

Water is made of mostly harmful elements.

What are you talking about?! I can't live without my morning cup of hydrogen.

[Scenic Hills]

Seriously, one of the core believes I have is that the foundation of freedom is personal responsibility. People have to be able to choose their own course of action and live with the results - even if it is disastrous. I always figured most people are smart enough to make sound and wise decisions with their life. There will always be people who make dumb decisions, but I always presumed that the majority of folks are smart enough to do the right thing for their own self interest.

I am having difficulties maintaining my faith in this.

Not long ago I read article (which I have since lost) where they studied the ability of people to plan for the future. As expected; the subjects fared quite poorly. I didn't want to believe it, but then I started looking around me. People are very bad at setting their priorities around anything that is in the future. Consider these:

1) Fitness - It is epidemic how many people don't exercise or eat well, fully knowing the toll it will take on them in the future.
2) Savings - The majority of Americans don't even have an adequate cash reserve, let alone retirement savings, yet consumer spending continues to increase every year.
3) Insurance - Enough people went without health insurance that the government had to legislate it to being mandatory to own! Life insurance, renters insurance, etc. all are under-owned. The only insurance most mpeople own is because it is mandated.
4) Education - Drop out rates in high school can be 50%-75% !

I could go on. There certainly are people who live responsibly and reap the benefits and rewards of having done so - but I am starting to think that it might be a majority of people out there incapable of caring for themselves in one or more of the above areas. Certainly there are people who experience events beyond their control - but it would be foolish to believe that is the rule rather than the exception - particularly when it is as prevalent as is.

So my question to you is on many levels. Do you believe the majority of people are smart enough to care for themselves? If so, what do you think should be done with/about the people who choose unwise decisions? If you do not believe that the majority of people are smart enough to take care of themselves, what do you propose be done to avert catastrophe for them and the society they live in?

I'm going to agree with your initial thoughts and freedoms and people right to choose but you see people were not always this way especially in America. If you study history close enough people started losing foresight on how to plan for the future when the government started giving handouts. Really think about it if the government is going to take care of you why should you plan for the future someone else has always done it for you

[Ifreann]

The obvious and lasting consequences of such stupid consumption are strangely unable to deter these morons and make them change their ways. You can regard that as a challenge to natural selection.

I don't get how you see it as a challenge to natural selection, it is natural selection at work.

Actually, I was just making a satirical remark on the evils of capitalism . Coca Cola is made of mostly harmful substances.

Water is made of mostly harmful elements.

What are you talking about?! I can't live without my morning cup of hydrogen.

See! Look what horrors hydrogen has unleashed upon us!

[Ashmoria]

So my question to you is on many levels. Do you believe the majority of people are smart enough to care for themselves? If so, what do you think should be done with/about the people who choose unwise decisions? If you do not believe that the majority of people are smart enough to take care of themselves, what do you propose be done to avert catastrophe for them and the society they live in?

no most of us arent smart enough or willing enough to take good care of themselves. myself included.

there is nothing to be done about it right now. there are far more of "us" then there are of disciplined people to tell us what to do.

so..... i propose that steve jobs design an iphone ap for that and that the govt buy us all iphones to tell us what to do.

[Scenic Hills]

So my question to you is on many levels. Do you believe the majority of people are smart enough to care for themselves? If so, what do you think should be done with/about the people who choose unwise decisions? If you do not believe that the majority of people are smart enough to take care of themselves, what do you propose be done to avert catastrophe for them and the society they live in?

no most of us arent smart enough or willing enough to take good care of themselves. myself included.

there is nothing to be done about it right now. there are far more of "us" then there are of disciplined people to tell us what to do.

so..... i propose that steve jobs design an iphone ap for that and that the govt buy us all iphones to tell us what to do.

I hate the government telling me what to do i think they should stay out of my personal life. They should be as least noticeable as possible.

[The Cat-Tribe]

This is one of those classic conservative themes that one cuts one way. The poor, the underclass, the uninsured, the elderly with insufficient retirement savings, the overweight or unhealthy are too blame for their own problems and should just take "personal responsibility." But the convenienty hypocrisy and myopia of this view can be stunning:

• Never mind that we pay into unemployment insurance, Social Security, Medicare/Medicaid, and other programs, when we earn income and are taxed, it is irresponsible to actually use such programs if one is fired or laid off, becomes disabled, elderly, etc.
  
  
• At the same time, we need tort reform so that no doctor or big corporation must be held fully responsible for anything deliberately wrong they do.
  
  
• Paying taxes (let alone a fair share of wealth made possible by our socio-political system) is no longer a civic duty or a matter or personal responsibility, but merely acquiescence to government tyrrany.
  
  
• Voting for Congressional representatives and a President to implement a more efficient and more effective and more comprehensive health care system (let alone a single payer system) somehow isn't taking personal responsibility for a national crisis.
  
  
• Personal responsibility seems to mean that if an poor or relative poor person declares bankruptcy, their credit may be destroyed for years and they may lose most of their immediate income and assests. If a rich person or a corporation does it ... not so much so. And the CEO and managers involved? They get golden parachutes.
  
  
• Personal responsibility means those that tried to reach for the American dream of owning their own home when they couldn't afford it are stupid maggots who deserve to loose it all, but the bankers that conned them into such high-risk mortgages are "too big to fail."
  
  
• Personal responsibility apparently doesn't include the actual power to have control over one's own body, to marry a consenting adult of one's choosing, or a myriad of other mature choices. It is only invoked as a negative -- when someone should be denied something because they should take personal responsibility.
  
  
• The rich and powerful still decide when and where we go to war and, primarily, the poor and middle class (and minorities) go a fight and die there. That apparently is "personal responsibility."
  
  
• Etc, etc, etc.....

I'm not really surprised the Robber Barons chose to ignore this post as ideologically incovenient.

[Central Slavia]

Erm... although i sort of agree with the conclusion, the reasoning is just bull....

1) As Unhealthy2 , i am also fat, and an engineering student.
The reasoning is that so far it does not limit me in needed tasks (walking to department and anywhere, manipulating heavy things, fitting into seats) and as far as the health risks... one can die from a multitude of reasons at pretty much any time... why bother?

2) People don't have enough of a cash reserve quite often because they are poor. Everyone wants some kind of a living standard, and these decisions are a way to achieve it... Not to mention that as an article which someone smart linked here mentions, plenty of these people are unlikely to live to the retirement age, which raises the question again, why bother filling the insurance company on cash they will get when one dies too early to retire?

3) Insurance companies in the USA are notorious for haggling over covering any medical expenditure, and causing people endless problems. Not to mention the huge list of bullshit preexisting conditions.
If you are reasonably healthy, there is little point in getting insured and stuffing cash down their maws...

4) The US education system sucks. Point.
From other places i know a reasonably bright fellow engineer in the US. In mathematics, after first year of engineering course they haven't even covered derivatives, something we did in the beginning of high school.
I think school curricula should be much more split and focused on the future choice of job the students, with rel. early specialisation, and there should be laws against requiring degrees for work that can be done by people with a high school diploma, to make the previous valuable to people who aren't smart enough to get college education.

[Ashmoria]

So my question to you is on many levels. Do you believe the majority of people are smart enough to care for themselves? If so, what do you think should be done with/about the people who choose unwise decisions? If you do not believe that the majority of people are smart enough to take care of themselves, what do you propose be done to avert catastrophe for them and the society they live in?

no most of us arent smart enough or willing enough to take good care of themselves. myself included.

there is nothing to be done about it right now. there are far more of "us" then there are of disciplined people to tell us what to do.

so..... i propose that steve jobs design an iphone ap for that and that the govt buy us all iphones to tell us what to do.

I hate the government telling me what to do i think they should stay out of my personal life. They should be as least noticeable as possible.

exactly!

thats why the iphone app is perfect! it can even collect secret data about you for computer review and update your recommendations!

[Arkinesia]

Yes, they are. It's all about making the choice to bother to care for themselves or not.

There are of course exceptions, but they're the exceptions, not the rules.

[Hydesland]

Yes, in some ways, a high proportion of people are not very good at planning ahead, and this can be empirically observed.

[Pythria]

-snip-

Well said.

[Unhealthy2]

Yes, in some ways, a high proportion of people are not very good at planning ahead, and this can be empirically observed.

But this correction should only be as much as absolutely necessary, and it should be as non-invasive as possible. For example, sin taxes are unnecessary.

[Hydesland]

Yes, in some ways, a high proportion of people are not very good at planning ahead, and this can be empirically observed.

But this correction should only be as much as absolutely necessary, and it should be as non-invasive as possible. For example, sin taxes are unnecessary.

Depends what you mean by sin taxes. Pigouvian taxes can be an effective way to reduce pollution for instance and can get companies and individuals to look at alternate, cleaner means (through financial reward).

[Unhealthy2]

Depends what you mean by sin taxes. Pigouvian taxes can be an effective way to reduce pollution for instance and can get companies and individuals to look at alternate, cleaner means (through financial reward).

That's carbon tax and pollution tax. I'm talking about taxes on choosing to partake in unhealthy vices.

1) I've seen no evidence that such things actually reduce smoking, soda, alcohol, or anything else. If they do, okay, but I'd like to see the evidence first.

2) They are regressive, and tend to disproportionately affect poor people.

3) Since obese people and smokers are less of a burden on the health system over their lives, the government has no externalities justification to tax such vices. Since the government really has no business trying to discourage behaviors that have no externalities but are "bad," it has no justification to levy sin taxes.

[Hydesland]

1) I've seen no evidence that such things actually reduce smoking, soda, alcohol, or anything else. If they do, okay, but I'd like to see the evidence first.

For smoking and other addictive substances I can't currently find much information on this, other than this paper., for other items it's simply intuitive. Much unhealthy food is only consumed because it is cheaper than alternative healthy foods when you go to the supermarket, so this is an already regressive feature of society where pricing disproportionately affects the poor by encouraging them to eat more unhealthy food. Arguably, if you make the price of these unhealthy foods equal to those of the healthy food (or higher), there will be much less incentive to buy them, and more healthy food will be consumed instead, although I don't really support this because of the regressive effects, as you said. It also makes sense to tax things like cigarettes here however, because they cause high costs in the UK to the NHS, so taxing cigarettes is a justified reciprocal tax to cover the cost imposed by smokers.

3) Since obese people and smokers are less of a burden on the health system over their lives

What? That only makes sense in models that claim that because smokers and obese people die earlier than non smokers and obese people, they actually save the health system money. Such models, however, have been heavily discredited recently.

[Carls-land]

No, most people are fucking stupid.

[Unilisia]

I tend to believe that most people are idiots who can't care for themselves, but like a small child they should be encouraged to learn from their mistakes. It works better than mollycoddling.

^this, although being a misanthrope it just makes me sad the way other people are, most of them should be euthanized.

[Unhealthy2]

For smoking and other addictive substances I can't currently find much information on this, other than this paper., for other items it's simply intuitive. Much unhealthy food is only consumed because it is cheaper than alternative healthy foods when you go to the supermarket, so this is an already regressive feature of society where pricing disproportionately affects the poor by encouraging them to eat more unhealthy food. Arguably, if you make the price of these unhealthy foods equal to those of the healthy food (or higher), there will be much less incentive to buy them, and more healthy food will be consumed instead, although I don't really support this because of the regressive effects, as you said. It also makes sense to tax things like cigarettes here however, because they cause high costs in the UK to the NHS, so taxing cigarettes is a justified reciprocal tax to cover the cost imposed by smokers.

And here I thought it was because unhealthy food was packed with supernormal stimuli to target the specific evolved mechanisms in our brain to seek out and consume as much fat, sugar, and salt as possible.

What? That only makes sense in models that claim that because smokers and obese people die earlier than non smokers and obese people, they actually save the health system money. Such models, however, have been heavily discredited recently.

I'd like an explanation as to how such models are invalid.

[Hydesland]

And here I thought it was because unhealthy food was packed with supernormal stimuli to target the specific evolved mechanisms in our brain to seek out and consume as much fat, sugar, and salt as possible.

That's one factor, but it's not as if poor people just spend their whole time eating McDonalds. Another factor is that, when a poor mother is faced with a choice to buy either a pack of 5 organic turkey slices full of nutrients at $3.95, or a pack of 20 ultra value turkey slices, devoid of any useful nutrients, that goes at $1.50, she will choose the latter.

I'd like an explanation as to how such models are invalid.

I can't really find you the studies I'm talking about, but it basically came down to bad math. Anyway, the externalities caused by smoking have already been established in traditional studies. http://www.treas.gov/press/releases/reports/tobacco.pdf

To put this in perspective, the benefits to the economy from a 60 percent reduction in smoking is equivalent to almost 5 percent of total Federal government spending, or almost one-quarter of the total health spending of the Federal government.