are people really smart enough to care for themselves?

[Mystic Skeptic]

Seriously, one of the core believes I have is that the foundation of freedom is personal responsibility. People have to be able to choose their own course of action and live with the results - even if it is disastrous. I always figured most people are smart enough to make sound and wise decisions with their life. There will always be people who make dumb decisions, but I always presumed that the majority of folks are smart enough to do the right thing for their own self interest.

I am having difficulties maintaining my faith in this.

Not long ago I read article (which I have since lost) where they studied the ability of people to plan for the future. As expected; the subjects fared quite poorly. I didn't want to believe it, but then I started looking around me. People are very bad at setting their priorities around anything that is in the future. Consider these:

1) Fitness - It is epidemic how many people don't exercise or eat well, fully knowing the toll it will take on them in the future.
2) Savings - The majority of Americans don't even have an adequate cash reserve, let alone retirement savings, yet consumer spending continues to increase every year.
3) Insurance - Enough people went without health insurance that the government had to legislate it to being mandatory to own! Life insurance, renters insurance, etc. all are under-owned. The only insurance most mpeople own is because it is mandated.
4) Education - Drop out rates in high school can be 50%-75% !

I could go on. There certainly are people who live responsibly and reap the benefits and rewards of having done so - but I am starting to think that it might be a majority of people out there incapable of caring for themselves in one or more of the above areas. Certainly there are people who experience events beyond their control - but it would be foolish to believe that is the rule rather than the exception - particularly when it is as prevalent as is.

So my question to you is on many levels. Do you believe the majority of people are smart enough to care for themselves? If so, what do you think should be done with/about the people who choose unwise decisions? If you do not believe that the majority of people are smart enough to take care of themselves, what do you propose be done to avert catastrophe for them and the society they live in?

[Rambhutan]

Perhaps they don't see it the same way as you
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... class.html

[Rumbria]

I tend to believe that most people are idiots who can't care for themselves, but like a small child they should be encouraged to learn from their mistakes. It works better than mollycoddling.

[Bottle]

Seriously, one of the core believes I have is that the foundation of freedom is personal responsibility. People have to be able to choose their own course of action and live with the results - even if it is disastrous. I always figured most people are smart enough to make sound and wise decisions with their life. There will always be people who make dumb decisions, but I always presumed that the majority of folks are smart enough to do the right thing for their own self interest.

I am having difficulties maintaining my faith in this.

Not long ago I read article (which I have since lost) where they studied the ability of people to plan for the future. As expected; the subjects fared quite poorly. I didn't want to believe it, but then I started looking around me. People are very bad at setting their priorities around anything that is in the future. Consider these:

1) Fitness - It is epidemic how many people don't exercise or eat well, fully knowing the toll it will take on them in the future.
2) Savings - The majority of Americans don't even have an adequate cash reserve, let alone retirement savings, yet consumer spending continues to increase every year.
3) Insurance - Enough people went without health insurance that the government had to legislate it to being mandatory to own! Life insurance, renters insurance, etc. all are under-owned. The only insurance most mpeople own is because it is mandated.
4) Education - Drop out rates in high school can be 50%-75% !

I could go on. There certainly are people who live responsibly and reap the benefits and rewards of having done so - but I am starting to think that it might be a majority of people out there incapable of caring for themselves in one or more of the above areas. Certainly there are people who experience events beyond their control - but it would be foolish to believe that is the rule rather than the exception - particularly when it is as prevalent as is.

So my question to you is on many levels. Do you believe the majority of people are smart enough to care for themselves? If so, what do you think should be done with/about the people who choose unwise decisions? If you do not believe that the majority of people are smart enough to take care of themselves, what do you propose be done to avert catastrophe for them and the society they live in?

Gotta give you a nice *golfclap* for that impressive show of privilege.

Come volunteer with me at the free clinic in Southwest DC for a few weeks, then tell me about how those people are overweight, poor, uninsured, and undereducated because they're LAZY or STUPID, K?

[Mystic Skeptic]

Perhaps they don't see it the same way as you
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... class.html

Gotta give you a nice *golfclap* for that impressive show of privilege.

Come volunteer with me at the free clinic in Southwest DC for a few weeks, then tell me about how those people are overweight, poor, uninsured, and undereducated because they're LAZY or STUPID, K?

You are both trying to create a diversion and make this a rich vs poor topic - which it is not. So please don't hijack this thread.

All of these traits are observable across the socio-economic spectrum.

[Les Drapeaux Brulants]

Not long ago I read article (which I have since lost) where they studied the ability of people to plan for the future. As expected; the subjects fared quite poorly. I didn't want to believe it, but then I started looking around me. People are very bad at setting their priorities around anything that is in the future. Consider these:

People are quite good at setting their priorities. Why would you expect everyone's priorities to agree with yours?

[Les Drapeaux Brulants]

Gotta give you a nice *golfclap* for that impressive show of privilege.

Come volunteer with me at the free clinic in Southwest DC for a few weeks, then tell me about how those people are overweight, poor, uninsured, and undereducated because they're LAZY or STUPID, K?

They make bad choices. The more we make excuses for them, the more bad choices they make.

[Apertior]

Most people are too stupid to know what's best for them, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be autonomous anyway.

[Unhealthy2]

Seriously, one of the core believes I have is that the foundation of freedom is personal responsibility. People have to be able to choose their own course of action and live with the results - even if it is disastrous. I always figured most people are smart enough to make sound and wise decisions with their life. There will always be people who make dumb decisions, but I always presumed that the majority of folks are smart enough to do the right thing for their own self interest.

I am having difficulties maintaining my faith in this.

Not long ago I read article (which I have since lost) where they studied the ability of people to plan for the future. As expected; the subjects fared quite poorly. I didn't want to believe it, but then I started looking around me. People are very bad at setting their priorities around anything that is in the future. Consider these:

1) Fitness - It is epidemic how many people don't exercise or eat well, fully knowing the toll it will take on them in the future.
2) Savings - The majority of Americans don't even have an adequate cash reserve, let alone retirement savings, yet consumer spending continues to increase every year.
3) Insurance - Enough people went without health insurance that the government had to legislate it to being mandatory to own! Life insurance, renters insurance, etc. all are under-owned. The only insurance most mpeople own is because it is mandated.
4) Education - Drop out rates in high school can be 50%-75% !

I could go on. There certainly are people who live responsibly and reap the benefits and rewards of having done so - but I am starting to think that it might be a majority of people out there incapable of caring for themselves in one or more of the above areas. Certainly there are people who experience events beyond their control - but it would be foolish to believe that is the rule rather than the exception - particularly when it is as prevalent as is.

So my question to you is on many levels. Do you believe the majority of people are smart enough to care for themselves? If so, what do you think should be done with/about the people who choose unwise decisions? If you do not believe that the majority of people are smart enough to take care of themselves, what do you propose be done to avert catastrophe for them and the society they live in?

I'm fat because I like food and I hate exercise. I'm also a dual major in physics and mathematics and I'm writing a paper on a general solution for the metric of isolated gravitating masses of constant density that have a compact and connected topology, which I plan on submitting to peer review sometime within the next few months. Tell me how I'm too "stupid" to know what's good for me. I know eating a lot is not healthy. I know that obesity is connected (in some cases causally) to many health problems later on in life. I also know that there's more to life than just living as long as possible, and quality is a factor. Eating healthy kinda sucks. Exercise really sucks. I've simply weighed the opportunity costs.

[Lordieth]

Human beings have never been good at predicting the future, and the further ahead we look the less accurate we are. We can predict our own future on a rudimentary level, whether or not we act on that prediction of "Well if I do this i'll be rewarded with that' is another matter. And life isn't just a summation of choices. Enviroment, upbringing, chance, privilege, and even location. It's not all 'laziness' but it is a big factor, but not the only factor.

[Mystic Skeptic]

Most people are too stupid to know what's best for them, but that doesn't mean they shouldn't be autonomous anyway.

I disagree. Most people are not smart enough to engineer and build a bridge - does not mean they shouldn't have access to one.

Social security was invented to prevent careless people from ending up elderly and impoverished. For better or worse regarding the program details - I applaud the goal.

Every day I see people who have no retirement savings, no emergency reserve. Inadequate or non-existant insurance; but have four cell phones in their house, xbox, PS3, Wii, cable deluxe and other unnecessary expenses. I see people suffering preventable health problems (due to their fitness issues) which cost them substantially both in cash and quality of life. We've all seen examples of short-sighted mistakes and lots of times. Many of us have made them and or continue to.

If this is common to a majority of people, then is it fair to hang over 50% of people out to dry? Wouldn't it be more compassionate to legislate behavior (such as my social security example) that will prevent them from future disaster? If the majority of people need it - then isn't a nanny-state appropriate, suitable and necessary?

[Unhealthy2]

If the majority of people need it - then isn't a nanny-state appropriate, suitable and necessary?

No.

[Apertior]

I disagree. Most people are not smart enough to engineer and build a bridge - does not mean they shouldn't have access to one.

I didn't say public works shouldn't exist. I just don't think the government should protect stupid people from themselves.

[Bafuria]

If people can't take care of themselves, then who's going to take care of the people?

[Vetalia]

If you make a poor decision, you should suffer the consequences. Otherwise, we reward people for their stupidity.

[Mystic Skeptic]

I disagree. Most people are not smart enough to engineer and build a bridge - does not mean they shouldn't have access to one.

I didn't say public works shouldn't exist. I just don't think the government should protect stupid people from themselves.

Specifically - why not?

[Buffett and Colbert]

Come volunteer with me at the free clinic in Southwest DC for a few weeks

Sure, I'm still in the area.

[Lackadaisical2]

Perhaps they don't see it the same way as you
http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg2 ... class.html

Indeed. This is why we need a two tiered system. One for the untermenschclass and one for people.

[Apertior]

I disagree. Most people are not smart enough to engineer and build a bridge - does not mean they shouldn't have access to one.

I didn't say public works shouldn't exist. I just don't think the government should protect stupid people from themselves.

Specifically - why not?

Because you can't suffer and learn from the consequences of your actions (or inaction) if the government constantly protects you from them.

[Faith Hope Charity]

If people can't take care of themselves, then who's going to take care of the people?

I agree.. and whats to make the people that are elected into the government by such "stupid people".. smart enough to make decisions for us?

This is a purely elitist and reprehensible question... of course we are smart enough to take care of ourselves.. anyone who suggests otherwise has an ulterior motive, which usually involves the concentration of power in a centralized government.

As an honest answer to what you are posting.. the problem is the individual.. people are lazy, and live for the now.. that pretty much sums up the problems.

Its not necessarily stupid, its more of an "I don't care right now, don't bother me" attitude.

[Regiria]

Seriously, one of the core believes I have is that the foundation of freedom is personal responsibility. People have to be able to choose their own course of action and live with the results - even if it is disastrous. I always figured most people are smart enough to make sound and wise decisions with their life. There will always be people who make dumb decisions, but I always presumed that the majority of folks are smart enough to do the right thing for their own self interest.

That was your first mistake.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I'm very disorganized and lazy, so it always amazes me that there are people who can't take care of themselves as well as I do. How can such people still exist after millions of years of evolution? It's actually the best argument I can think of for creationism.

I think we do enough to save the stupid from themselves, but I get the feeling our society is drifting in a direction where we will do more and more to coddle them. That has been the trend for the last couple of centuries -- more and more coddling all the time.

[Pythria]

Does it matter? Even if they're not smart enough, they should. And who's to decide what's a good standard, what's a good way to live, a good way to take care of yourself? I sure don't want the state breathing down my neck because I didn't exercise x many hours this week and that's what they think is good for me. It's called freedom. Even if people don't know how to use it, that's not for others to decide, and it's not for others to take away.

[The Adrian Empire]

Yes, they are, most people are more then capable of making the appropriate life choices, when they are free to make them, I will take apart your points piece by piece, but allow me to say this, if you knew history well, you would realize that this modern epidemic of unhealthiness, irresponsibility and reckless financial decision is one that is almost exclusively isolated to the last 50 years, it is of no coincidence that these are precisely the years in which government began to control people's life at a much greater level.


1) Fitness - It is epidemic how many people don't exercise or eat well, fully knowing the toll it will take on them in the future.
The rise in obesity actually follows the switch to corn based syrup, which was caused by government intervention in farming, that even the poor can be morbidly obese should be a testament to the success of our nation, if not an overtly good one, but society is turning, we are more then well aware of the healthy options, big business is selling more and more diet foods, I predict that the obesity rates of the world will level out and decline in the next decade.

2) Savings - The majority of Americans don't even have an adequate cash reserve, let alone retirement savings, yet consumer spending continues to increase every year.
And prior to the 1980's the vast majority of people did, in fact people have been very good at saving up until the government started trying to restart economies with consumer spending by encouraging spending when logical people and the government ought to have been saving.

3) Insurance - Enough people went without health insurance that the government had to legislate it to being mandatory to own! Life insurance, renters insurance, etc. all are under-owned. The only insurance most mpeople own is because it is mandated.
Of the 40 million Americans who did not have insurance 40% had enough money to afford healthcare insurance and decided against it, more the 60% were younger then 30 and thus were very unlikely to need insurance, they were actually being quite prudent. Obamacare will force these people to cut their budgets. Insurance while smart for some is not necessary for every person, in fact it is illogical for you to rail against savings and not having insurance if one had all these types of insurance they wouldn't need savings, if one had enough savings they wouldn't need insurance. I prefer savings.
More importantly, the Swiss Healthcare System, which has non-mandatory private health insurance has almost a 99% coverage rate, Swiss culture is risk adverse more people get health insurance, the government wasn't force feeding them care, they took to it on their own. Not to mention that previous to the 1930's most Americans had easy access to affordable healthcare.

4) Education - Drop out rates in high school can be 50%-75% !
For many graduating highschool would have done little good, American schools are terrible, most don't learn near enough, dropping out means smaller classes for the kids who do have a chance, you think education is good for everyone, and certainly everyone should have and be able to get a full education but it should not be mandatory. That we have so many people going to college has rendered anything short of a Master's Degree Chump Change on a job application. More kids delaying entering the workforce can be a very bad thing, the sort of thing which eats away at people's savings.


All in all, most of your critiques are based on mere hype, the rest can be explained just as much for giving people more responsibility.

People need more freedom not less, when given the freedom to act and choose according to their wills people will always take the action which is in their self-interest, this is simply observable, the only time in which a person will choose otherwise is when it is imposed on him by circumstance or tyrants. A child given free reign of his life will learn when he places his hand on the hot stove that he should not touch it, the government intervenes in such a way that they encourage the child to attempt to touch the stove again and again.

The belief that the common man is stupid and ignorant, is the first and most held belief of every tyrant and dictator, it is the only creed which the public must accept for tyranny to rule. That is how they take power, that today the common person would agree with you marks a most dangerous period for the world.

[Grainne Ni Malley]

No, we're all idiots and should be drowned at birth. Let the dogs take over.