NationStates

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:09 pm**

Here's an odd one, a man is charged with rape for deceiving a woman over his ethnicity..

An Israeli man of Arab origin has been convicted of rape after having consensual sex with a woman who had believed him to be a fellow Jew.

Sabbar Kashur, 30, was sentenced to 18 months in prison on Monday after the court ruled that he was guilty of rape by deception. According to the complaint filed by the woman with the Jerusalem district court, the two met in downtown Jerusalem in September 2008 where Kashur, an Arab from East Jerusalem, introduced himself as a Jewish bachelor seeking a serious relationship. The two then had consensual sex in a nearby building before Kashur left.

When she later found out that he was not Jewish but an Arab, she filed a criminal complaint for rape and indecent assault.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/ju ... al-sex-jew

It might be worth reading the link as it raises some other questions but, basically..

What thinks NSG?

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:11 pm**

*headdesk*

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:13 pm**

That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Either the sex was consensual or it was not.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:13 pm**

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:14 pm**

This reminds me of that thread about coercion and pressuring which spun around for 90 pages or so.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:14 pm**

wow

well if its against the law, it seems that he was guilty of it.

.... im trying to think of other deceptions that i might agree amounted to rape....

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:15 pm**

The judge's opinion was along the lines of..

Handing down the verdict, Tzvi Segal, one of three judges on the case, acknowledged that sex had been consensual but said that although not "a classical rape by force," the woman would not have consented if she had not believed Kashur was Jewish.

The sex therefore was obtained under false pretences, the judges said. "If she hadn't thought the accused was a Jewish bachelor interested in a serious romantic relationship, she would not have cooperated," they added.

..in more detail..

Segal said: "The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls. When the very basis of trust between human beings drops, especially when the matters at hand are so intimate, sensitive and fateful, the court is required to stand firmly at the side of the victims – actual and potential – to protect their wellbeing. Otherwise, they will be used, manipulated and misled, while paying only a tolerable and symbolic price."

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:16 pm**

what is this i dont even

I get that some people don't like certain ethnicities, but he was cool enough to jump into bed with why the heck should being an arab matter? Why is suddenly rape because he's not jewish?

Good Krishna, these people...

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:16 pm**

The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls.

this is gold

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:16 pm**

He deceived her, therefore its rape.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:17 pm**

I bet he pouted and stomped around the room right before he raped her too.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:17 pm**

Illithar wrote:That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Either the sex was consensual or it was not.

well ya but she wouldnt have consented if he hadnt lied to her.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:17 pm**

Ashmoria wrote:wow

well if its against the law, it seems that he was guilty of it.

.... im trying to think of other deceptions that i might agree amounted to rape....

The only one I could think of would be deception over STD's or about the use of contraception, but that still wouldn't be rape.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:18 pm**

Lackadaisical2 wrote:I bet he pouted and stomped around the room right before he raped her too.

I almost choked on my drink.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:18 pm**

Ashmoria wrote:wow

well if its against the law, it seems that he was guilty of it.

.... im trying to think of other deceptions that i might agree amounted to rape....

Exactly, how do we judge deception by degrees - what about married people who lie for example, I'm not saying it's a good thing but is it an 18 month prison sentence?

On some level I feel that deception for sex is stealing somewhat but on another it's so very common that there should be some caveat emptor here,

There's also further racial questions within the article I haven't quoted,

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:19 pm**

Ashmoria wrote:
Illithar wrote:That has to be one of the stupidest things I've ever read. Either the sex was consensual or it was not.

well ya but she wouldnt have consented if he hadnt lied to her.

true...but she did consent to the sex. I would agree that the guy was a dick, but not a rapist.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:19 pm**

Tokos wrote:
The court is obliged to protect the public interest from sophisticated, smooth-tongued criminals who can deceive innocent victims at an unbearable price – the sanctity of their bodies and souls.

this is gold

yeah it is.

it would seem to be more of a wrong if it involved marriage instead of a good roll in the hay.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:20 pm**

If she said Yes, then its not rape...

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:21 pm**

Canadai wrote:Racism doesn't make it rape.

This

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:22 pm**

There's a lot of issues in this - it reminds me of the uproar in China when Zhang Ziyi - the actress from Crouching Tiger, Hidden Dragon - was photographed with some western guy on a beach. "How dare she bring shame on China?" was the general tone of the uproar although many pointed out that if it was a male Chinese with a western female everyone would be all "way to go dude.."

There's also the racial issues as highlighted by one Israeli commentator..

Gideon Levy, a liberal Israeli commentator, was quoted as saying: "I would like to raise only one question with the judge. What if this guy had been a Jew who pretended to be a Muslim and had sex with a Muslim woman?

"Would he have been convicted of rape? The answer is: of course not."

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:23 pm**

Barringtonia wrote:
Ashmoria wrote:wow

well if its against the law, it seems that he was guilty of it.

.... im trying to think of other deceptions that i might agree amounted to rape....

Exactly, how do we judge deception by degrees - what about married people who lie for example, I'm not saying it's a good thing but is it an 18 month prison sentence?

On some level I feel that deception for sex is stealing somewhat but on another it's so very common that there should be some caveat emptor here,

There's also further racial questions within the article I haven't quoted,

it seems ridiculous. it CERTAINLY seems ridiculous to complain about an act that carries its own immorality--nonmarital sex. she must have felt very strongly about it to expose herself to public scorn.

maybe one of her relatives "convinced" her that she needed to complain to the police.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:24 pm**

Qwcasd wrote:
Canadai wrote:Racism doesn't make it rape.

This

Deception, on the other hand.....

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:25 pm**

Ifreann wrote:Deception, on the other hand.....

Which brings us to the tricky situation of what lies one must tell a girl to get into her underwear for it to count as rape.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:28 pm**

Tokos wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Deception, on the other hand.....

Which brings us to the tricky situation of what lies one must tell a girl to get into her underwear for it to count as rape.

Or, other way round, what about women who lie about their age - I mean, are these things as important as, say, religious ethnicity?

Is religious ethnicity a separate case to some extent - not that it should be in my own mind but then I'm not seriously religious nor do I belong to a ethnicity so strongly defined as Jewish.

Posted: **Tue Jul 20, 2010 7:29 pm**

Tokos wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Deception, on the other hand.....

Which brings us to the tricky situation of what lies one must tell a girl to get into her underwear for it to count as rape.

i cant think of anything that i would agree was egregious enough to be rape....

the roadie claims to be the rock star?

the butler who claims to be the lord?

the most common is the man who declares his undying love and intention to marry but .... if those things are so important to a woman she ought to wait for marriage.....

is there anything that a woman could lie to YOU about that would make you feel ....taken advantage of....afterwards?

NationStates

Non-consent by race..

Non-consent by race..