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Was Jesus a Communist?

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:41 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:
Geniasis wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with half a brain could figure that one out


Actually, there is considerable question, though this isn't the place for that discussion.

I am guessing your going to say the bible was written a couple hundred years later like most liberals like to tell me.But there is evidence outside the bible that some of the books could have been written around 40 A.D.Yes the bible its self wasnt put together since a long ways.But the scriptures are very factual,and timely in there writing by the actual people who claimed to write them.


Mark and Luke, the two earliest gospels, were written no earlier than 70 AD--about 30 years after the death after the death of Christ.

Matthew is the earliest, I believe, but there is so much material shared among Matthew, Mark and Luke that some scholars have postulated a separate collection of stories about Jesus that predates them all. The earliest date for Matthew is the 50s, but most favor a slightly later date, in the 60s.


Actually, the Gospel of Mark is the earliest. The Gospel of Matthew most likely used Mark and one or more other texts as it's sources.

Not according to the Wiki article on the Synoptic Gospels, LG. But then, that article discusses half a dozen different hypotheses about who wrote what and when and who borrowed from whom.
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:43 am

Wasn't Jesus nouveau riche himself ? Sure, born in a poor carpenter family - but then some wise men came along with gifts of gold and such.
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Postby Ashmoria » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:43 am

Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

no.

but the post-crucifixion apostles were.
whatever

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Bendira
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Postby Bendira » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:43 am

Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!


Yes, I have been saying this forever. Religion in America is a hypocrasy, because America takes the Satanic approach of materialism.
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Conservative Alliances
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Postby Conservative Alliances » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:44 am

Panzerjaeger wrote:
Conservative Alliances wrote:No, he was not. His teachings had to do with a personal way of life, not an economic ideology. Simply donating money and possessions to the poor does not make one a communist. On the flip side, read Matthew 25:14-30 and try to explain how Jesus isn't a capitalist.

Easy Capitalism was not an Economic Theory then. Okay next stupid question.

Just because an idea isn't labeled yet, that does not mean it doesn't exist. It is just a thought when it comes down to it. By the way, there was no question.
Last edited by Conservative Alliances on Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:45 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Dododecapod » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:45 am

The Alma Mater wrote:Wasn't Jesus nouveau riche himself ? Sure, born in a poor carpenter family - but then some wise men came along with gifts of gold and such.

"Poor" Carpenter? No such thing. Not as big a man as the village Blacksmith, but a position of some importance and wealth.
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Panzerjaeger
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Postby Panzerjaeger » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:47 am

Conservative Alliances wrote:
Panzerjaeger wrote:
Conservative Alliances wrote:No, he was not. His teachings had to do with a personal way of life, not an economic ideology. Simply donating money and possessions to the poor does not make one a communist. On the flip side, read Matthew 25:14-30 and try to explain how Jesus isn't a capitalist.

Easy Capitalism was not an Economic Theory then. Okay next stupid question.

Just because an idea isn't labeled yet, that does not mean it doesn't exist. It is just a thought when it comes down to it. By the way, there was no question.

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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:48 am

Farnhamia wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Farnhamia wrote:Matthew is the earliest, I believe, but there is so much material shared among Matthew, Mark and Luke that some scholars have postulated a separate collection of stories about Jesus that predates them all. The earliest date for Matthew is the 50s, but most favor a slightly later date, in the 60s.


Actually, the Gospel of Mark is the earliest. The Gospel of Matthew most likely used Mark and one or more other texts as it's sources.

Not according to the Wiki article on the Synoptic Gospels, LG. But then, that article discusses half a dozen different hypotheses about who wrote what and when and who borrowed from whom.


Well, let's call the issue 'unsettled', but I think the evidence leans toward Matthew using Mark as a source.
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Postby Zeyad » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:49 am

Dododecapod wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Wasn't Jesus nouveau riche himself ? Sure, born in a poor carpenter family - but then some wise men came along with gifts of gold and such.

"Poor" Carpenter? No such thing. Not as big a man as the village Blacksmith, but a position of some importance and wealth.



It may or may not be worth noting, but I was curious and did a brief search and came up with this:

http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=6

I don't know of its authenticity or not, but it's certainly interesting. Thoughts?
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Postby You-Gi-Owe » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:50 am

Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

I doubt that Jesus was communist.

He was also preaching about the KINGDOM Of HEAVEN.
God the Father is the King and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One with Him.

Probably the reason that it is harder for the rich to get into Heaven than the poor is that the rich are more likely to be poor stewards of the talents that God loans to them on this Earth. The rich have more responsibilities that than poor. Fortunately, Jesus forgives the rich, too.
Last edited by You-Gi-Owe on Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:50 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Postby Class Warhair » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:51 am

Conservative Alliances wrote:On the flip side, read Matthew 25:14-30 and try to explain how Jesus isn't a capitalist.


The "master" of that parable is not Jesus nor God.

The parable illustrates how the richest man gains the most "from putting his money to work" and is rewarded by the "master". The moderately priveleged man gains somewhat from the money he has to invest, and is likewise rewarded. But the man who started out poor distrusts the master (fairly too in my opinion, blatant discrimination there) and has so little money he cannot afford to risk it in business. He is punished by the master for that.

The initial apportionment is "according to their ability". NOT according to their worthiness or their virtue. The end result follows from inequality of initial means (which you could read either as inherited wealth or as individual capacity) and only amplifies it.

Absolutely NOT an endorsement of capitalism. Only if you assume the "master" is correct in what he does does it say the end result (following from initial inequality and exaggerating it) is fair.

As yourself, is it fair to take the one talent from the poorest man as punishment for trying to keep it safe, and give it to the man who had the best chance to make money right from the start? Does that really seem fair to you
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Postby Nazistisches Reich » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:51 am

Living Freedom Land wrote:
Wamitoria wrote:
Living Freedom Land wrote:
Glorious Homeland wrote:
Living Freedom Land wrote:
The Holy Bible wrote:It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


The Bible clearly says, with God, all things are possible. The real problem is not wealth, but that men let wealth get between them and God.

Funny how the rich Americans always say that. But then America is a country that was founded by heretics. Socialism in the UK took a large amount of support from the likes of the Methodist church, which supported socialism on theological grounds.

America was founded not founded by heretics. Rather, Americans were fleeing heretical oppression.

And they proceeded to persecute everyone who didn't agree with their personal beliefs, your point?

I fail to see how the nation that pioneered freedom of religion is a nation rife with persecution. Sure, some people like the Puritans in Massachusetts originally restricted other religions, but the Pennsylvanians were pacifist Quakers that wanted to harm nobody. By the time a real American identity was established, freedom of religion was an idea gaining ground and was adopted in the First Amendment of the Constitution.


Really what about the Salem witch trials? Innocent people were hanged because of some little bitches who claimed they were witchs who terrorized them. It was fuckin nuts in early american and people back then were go fricken stupid that they would believe a priest if he said he seen flying monkeys over his house.
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Postby Geniasis » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:52 am

You-Gi-Owe wrote:
Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

I doubt that Jesus was communist.

He was also preaching about the KINGDOM Of HEAVEN.
God the Father is the King and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One with Him.

Probably the reason that it is harder for the rich to get into Heaven than the poor is that the rich are more likely to be poor stewards of the talents that God loans to them on this Earth. The rich have more responsibilities that than poor. Fortunately, Jesus forgives the rich, too.


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Postby Conservative Alliances » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:53 am

Panzerjaeger wrote:
Conservative Alliances wrote:
Panzerjaeger wrote:
Conservative Alliances wrote:No, he was not. His teachings had to do with a personal way of life, not an economic ideology. Simply donating money and possessions to the poor does not make one a communist. On the flip side, read Matthew 25:14-30 and try to explain how Jesus isn't a capitalist.

Easy Capitalism was not an Economic Theory then. Okay next stupid question.

Just because an idea isn't labeled yet, that does not mean it doesn't exist. It is just a thought when it comes down to it. By the way, there was no question.

Have you received any blows to the head recently?

Nope. I just don't see why you're hung up on capitalism not existing as a theory at the time. It really doesn't matter. There is nothing keeping us from analyzing someone from the past with modern day labels. I suppose that since the word "idiot" did not enter the English language until the 13th century, that means we cannot refer to anyone before that time as an idiot, right?
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The Alma Mater
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Postby The Alma Mater » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:54 am

Zeyad wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Wasn't Jesus nouveau riche himself ? Sure, born in a poor carpenter family - but then some wise men came along with gifts of gold and such.

"Poor" Carpenter? No such thing. Not as big a man as the village Blacksmith, but a position of some importance and wealth.



It may or may not be worth noting, but I was curious and did a brief search and came up with this:

http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=6

I don't know of its authenticity or not, but it's certainly interesting. Thoughts?


It certainly points to Jesus not being poor himself. Highly skilled craftsman family, gifted a fortune when born- not the things one associates with a beggar on the street.

But did he insist on sharing it equally ?
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Postby Dododecapod » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:55 am

Zeyad wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Wasn't Jesus nouveau riche himself ? Sure, born in a poor carpenter family - but then some wise men came along with gifts of gold and such.

"Poor" Carpenter? No such thing. Not as big a man as the village Blacksmith, but a position of some importance and wealth.



It may or may not be worth noting, but I was curious and did a brief search and came up with this:

http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=6

I don't know of its authenticity or not, but it's certainly interesting. Thoughts?


Interesting indeed. I would actually add to that the point that "carpenter" didn't mean quite the same then, either - he was a person who built doors, walls, gates, anything of wood, not just cabinets and fancy tables. Whichever position Jesus actually had (remember that it was traditional for a son to follow his father's trade), he was of a family of means.
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Postby Nazistisches Reich » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:55 am

You-Gi-Owe wrote:
Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

I doubt that Jesus was communist.

He was also preaching about the KINGDOM Of HEAVEN.
God the Father is the King and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One with Him.

Probably the reason that it is harder for the rich to get into Heaven than the poor is that the rich are more likely to be poor stewards of the talents that God loans to them on this Earth. The rich have more responsibilities that than poor. Fortunately, Jesus forgives the rich, too.


You believe in god and jesus yet I read your signiture and it doesnt sound like a person "God" wants in heaven.
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Postby Risottia » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:58 am

Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor.

Ehm, nope.
Jesus didn't hate the rich: "love thy neighbour" includes rich people. He hated greed (see also the episode about the merchants in the Temple).
About power, he also stated that his reign wasn't a mundane one, but a spiritual (otherwordly) one instead.

Jesus (assuming he existed, of course) was a revolutionary, but no way a communist. His revolution was about ethics and spirituality, not about economics and interclass relationships.

Jesus even said himself: "It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."

Actually he said "It's easier for a hawser to get through the eye of a needle." (yep, kamelos means hawser, too).
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Postby The Tofu Islands » Tue Jul 20, 2010 10:59 am

Conservative Alliances wrote:No, he was not. His teachings had to do with a personal way of life, not an economic ideology. Simply donating money and possessions to the poor does not make one a communist.

However the people who knew him best and were closest to him -- the apostles -- were communists (see Acts 4:32-35).

Conservative Alliances wrote:On the flip side, read Matthew 25:14-30 and try to explain how Jesus isn't a capitalist.

Given that it's a parable, it's hard to see what needs explanation. It's about using what you are given in the best possible way, not about money.
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:01 am

You-Gi-Owe wrote:
Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

I doubt that Jesus was communist.

He was also preaching about the KINGDOM Of HEAVEN.
God the Father is the King and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are One with Him.

Probably the reason that it is harder for the rich to get into Heaven than the poor is that the rich are more likely to be poor stewards of the talents that God loans to them on this Earth. The rich have more responsibilities that than poor. Fortunately, Jesus forgives the rich, too.


The kingdom of heaven refers to the model of government - a benevolent dictatorship. It doesn't speak to the economic model.
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Zeyad
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Postby Zeyad » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:01 am

The Alma Mater wrote:
Zeyad wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
The Alma Mater wrote:Wasn't Jesus nouveau riche himself ? Sure, born in a poor carpenter family - but then some wise men came along with gifts of gold and such.

"Poor" Carpenter? No such thing. Not as big a man as the village Blacksmith, but a position of some importance and wealth.



It may or may not be worth noting, but I was curious and did a brief search and came up with this:

http://www.jesuspolice.com/common_error.php?id=6

I don't know of its authenticity or not, but it's certainly interesting. Thoughts?


It certainly points to Jesus not being poor himself. Highly skilled craftsman family, gifted a fortune when born- not the things one associates with a beggar on the street.

But did he insist on sharing it equally ?



We'll probably never know, which might be part of the point. Its worth noting that there are some that believe that a book alleged to be the account of Jesus's childhood is cannon, but it's been dismissed by a majority of scholars and if I'm correct has never been included in the cannon Bible at any point.

Dododecapod:
Interesting indeed. I would actually add to that the point that "carpenter" didn't mean quite the same then, either - he was a person who built doors, walls, gates, anything of wood, not just cabinets and fancy tables. Whichever position Jesus actually had (remember that it was traditional for a son to follow his father's trade), he was of a family of means.


Overall the general evidence seems to point that he wasn't poor, and that it was certainly possible he could have lived a very easy life as a child/young adult. Its also worth noting that he doesn't own a single thing when he begins his travels. It seems Jesus walked the walked eh? He could have certainly lived a comfortable life, especially considering the place he was born wasn't particularly big, so he could have settled and have been well off, but he chose to follow a life of God instead. I also think that's part of the message.

On the flip side, I'm willing to bet that a majority of Christians have never read what we just read in concerns to Joseph's profession or how it was translated, it's surprising how little Christians can know about the Bible.

That might be a good new thread actually... :geek:
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And therein lies the problem, because your opinion is wrong.

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Postby Bendira » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:03 am

lol at how the commies dont want to be associated with Jesus, even though they have the same message.
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Postby Conservative Alliances » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:07 am

The Tofu Islands wrote:
Conservative Alliances wrote:On the flip side, read Matthew 25:14-30 and try to explain how Jesus isn't a capitalist.

Given that it's a parable, it's hard to see what needs explanation. It's about using what you are given in the best possible way, not about money.

I don't see how that matters in the least bit. The point is that those that work harder and take advantage of what they are given will succeed. That is the main point behind capitalism, not communism. Also, most theologists agree that the "employer" represents Jesus.
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Zackor
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Founded: May 03, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Zackor » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:08 am

Living Freedom Land wrote:
The Holy Bible wrote:It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


The Bible clearly says, with God, all things are possible. The real problem is not wealth, but that men let wealth get between them and God.

Indeed.
Troops and all manor of modern warfare units are stationed in every bordering Zackor city. Their numbers will be balanced with the attacking forces, victory of ANY battle will depend on tactics instead of numbers.. this should take care of all god modding. You also can't have more than 2 million troops attacking one place, as are the rules of this post.

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Panzerjaeger
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Founded: Sep 15, 2009
Ex-Nation

Postby Panzerjaeger » Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:08 am

Conservative Alliances wrote:
The Tofu Islands wrote:
Conservative Alliances wrote:On the flip side, read Matthew 25:14-30 and try to explain how Jesus isn't a capitalist.

Given that it's a parable, it's hard to see what needs explanation. It's about using what you are given in the best possible way, not about money.

I don't see how that matters in the least bit. The point is that those that work harder and take advantage of what they are given will succeed. That is the main point behind capitalism, not communism. Also, most theologists agree that the "employer" represents Jesus.

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