Was Jesus a Communist?

[Bergnovinaia]

After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

Um... no.

[Conservative Alliances]

Jesus didn't really have anything to say about how the government should organise society, he only spoke of what the individual should do.

Exactly.

[Galiria]

Jesus wasn't communist, because communism didn't exist until Karl Marx invented it .

[Grave_n_idle]

No, one can be rich and call oneself a Christian. Not the same thing.

Is there a definition in the Bible somewhere that I missed?

Apparently, everything between the words "In the beginning..." and "..with you all. Amen".

[Rolamec]

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

Well, if you believe in your heart and mind, in the Lord Jesus...

Seriously, I don't think Christ is any "-ism." I think his beliefs towards the poor was that of common sense. They are people, treat them like people, care for them as people. He realized that greed can destroy the mind and any sense of right or wrong (Parable of the camel through the eye of a needle). He disliked hypocrites who proclaimed holiness but committed gross crimes. In short, he had a sense of doing what was right.

[Der Teutoniker]

Nothing about communism requires that it is forced upon people. Societies based on voluntary participation can still be communist.

What does that have to do with anything? Jesus didn't say anything to anyone except to each individual who would be His follower.

Granted, the early Christian Church was probably the best example of a communal community, but such was required to even survive.

Again, though, Jesus also advocated paying taxes to very unsocialist governments.

[Der Teutoniker]

Apparently, everything between the words "In the beginning..." and "..with you all. Amen".

Well, at some time or another, I've read most of it. Can you give me a specific source, or are you cool with dismissing your unsourced statement as opinion?

[The Tofu Islands]

What does that have to do with anything?

Uh, quite a bit?

The thread question was whether Jesus was communist. You showed up and said he supported voluntary charity rather than enforced wealth redistribution, implying that you considered communism to be that.

If I've misinterpreted you, feel free to explain.

Again, though, Jesus also advocated paying taxes to very unsocialist governments.

I think that mainly falls under the idea that his kingdom is not earthly, and that while we*'re here we should basically obey earthly authority.


Anyway, it's nearing my bedtime (around 23:30 over here) so I'll probably not respond again until morning. Good night and sleep well whenever your timezone hits bedtime.


*I'm not Christian, however we seems to be the pronoun that works best. Meh.

[Meldaria]

Yes he was, he told people to sell all their possessions and give to the poor. Which is impractical and not orthodox communism.

[The Hauser Empire]

Communis is a classless and stateless society where all decisions are made demorcatically by every member of society, that is communism in its pure form so if you believe in that way of life you are communist

[Solyhniya]

Christianity and Socialism are inextricably linked. No Christian can truly hate Socialism or excuse themselves making huge amounts of money whilst giving little to those less fortunate than they are.

I believe that's called "charity" not "socialism".

Perhaps a quick Google search would highlight some differences.

Please patronise me some more.

---

A Christian should, out of his free will, want to be a Socialist. Jesus said give what you're able to give, not give what you can be bothered to give on a whime.

Oh and by the way, I'm sure you know this already, but: "It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle than for a rich man to enter Heaven." Pat Robertson's in for a nasty surprise xD

[Class Warhair]

Jesus wasn't communist, because communism didn't exist until Karl Marx invented it .

And also, I've seen pictures of Jesus. He has flowing blonde hair but he doesn't wear a cap with a star on it like Che Guavara.

[Geniasis]

Jesus wasn't communist, because communism didn't exist until Karl Marx invented it .

If he was the Son of God, who's to say that he cares about the timeline?

[Class Warhair]

I didn't think hating rich people implied communism. Nor do I think Jesus hated anyone.

Indeed. His words were not about money. It's the persons actions......

His words were not about money?

"if you want to be perfect, go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor" isn't about money?

It's not just "give some money to the poor" either!

Of course, if everyone did that there would be a contradiction because the last of the poor would have stuff and no-one to sell it to. I'm not quite sure what happens then, maybe people start smashing shit up so no-one has to own it.

At some point, there's going to be a balance - everyone has what they need, and people aren't being distracted by excess worldliness. The 'perfect' model of Christianity is minimalist communism.

You can probably guess, I'm not a Christian so I don't take the Bible too seriously. But in fairness, this one story of a rich man isn't the whole of the Christian prescription. And there's a fairly serious contradiction even within this short passage (all 3 versions): the return "a hundred times" in this life, of what the Disciples have given up to follow Jesus.

And let's call it ascetic socialism. Is it really "communism" without the idea of critical property being held in common? All having equally as much private property isn't quite the same thing.

What is given back is not supposed to be considered in terms of material value.

Yes it is. All three passages I examined (Matthew 19, Mark 10 and Luke 18, the three passages which mention camels (or ropes, if you like) passing through the eye of the needle as mentioned in the OP) quite explicitly say that this 10x reward is in this world, in addition to reward in the next.

It's only a contradiction if you think the point of the story is to talk about worldly wealth, rather than spiritual richness.

Read it and then get back to me.

Shall we call it ascetic socialism then? There is no mention in these three equivalent passages of giving away property to the community (making it communal property).

[Geniasis]

Luke 8 is a parable. If you take it at literal face value, then you missed the point entirely.

[Caninope]

Nope, he wasn't at all.

Advocating free-will charity is quite a bit different than"no-state" state enforced wealth redistribution.

And the notion that rich people are potentially less likely to enter the kingdom of God is not communist. It merely demonstrates the truth behind the corrupting allure of wealth, and the amassing of wealth.

One can be rich, and still a Christian (that is to say, a follower of Jesus).

No, one can be rich and call oneself a Christian. Not the same thing.

No, you can be rich and still be a Christian. It just becomes harder as the more wordly riches you have, the harder it is to give your soul to the Lord. That doesn't make them mutually exclusive.

[Class Warhair]

Of course he wasn't. He was the King of Kings.

At least, that's what Kings want you to call him.

"I am the King, subject only to the King of Kings. If I obey him, and you obey me, you will be obeying the King of Kings and nothing bad will happen to you ... right, that's them got in line, let's have that banquet now"

[Galiria]

Jesus wasn't communist, because communism didn't exist until Karl Marx invented it .

And also, I've seen pictures of Jesus. He has flowing blonde hair but he doesn't wear a cap with a star on it like Che Guavara.

Exactly, no more proof needed!

Jesus wasn't communist, because communism didn't exist until Karl Marx invented it .

If he was the Son of God, who's to say that he cares about the timeline?

Actually, now you mention, Jesus is usually shown with a beard...and Karl Marx had a beard.... Mein Gott!

[Central Slavia]

Jesus wasn't communist, because communism didn't exist until Karl Marx invented it .

erm... there was primitive communism (we call prvotnopospolna spolocnost) - the hunter gatherer society for example, but that was communism out of necessity due to lack of everything...
Marx invented scientific communism for your info

[Solyhniya]

Of course he wasn't. He was the King of Kings.

At least, that's what Kings want you to call him.

"I am the King, subject only to the King of Kings. If I obey him, and you obey me, you will be obeying the King of Kings and nothing bad will happen to you ... right, that's them got in line, let's have that banquet now"

^SO true

[Risottia]

Christianity and Socialism are inextricably linked.

Linked, yes - I think that centuries of Christian thought have been a prerequisite of Socialist theories. But this doesn't make Christianity a part of Socialism.

[Zeyad]

I didn't think hating rich people implied communism. Nor do I think Jesus hated anyone.

Indeed. His words were not about money. It's the persons actions......

His words were not about money?

"if you want to be perfect, go thy way, sell whatsoever thou hast, and give to the poor" isn't about money?

It's not just "give some money to the poor" either!

Of course, if everyone did that there would be a contradiction because the last of the poor would have stuff and no-one to sell it to. I'm not quite sure what happens then, maybe people start smashing shit up so no-one has to own it.

At some point, there's going to be a balance - everyone has what they need, and people aren't being distracted by excess worldliness. The 'perfect' model of Christianity is minimalist communism.

You can probably guess, I'm not a Christian so I don't take the Bible too seriously. But in fairness, this one story of a rich man isn't the whole of the Christian prescription. And there's a fairly serious contradiction even within this short passage (all 3 versions): the return "a hundred times" in this life, of what the Disciples have given up to follow Jesus.

And let's call it ascetic socialism. Is it really "communism" without the idea of critical property being held in common? All having equally as much private property isn't quite the same thing.

What is given back is not supposed to be considered in terms of material value.

Yes it is. All three passages I examined (Matthew 19, Mark 10 and Luke 18, the three passages which mention camels (or ropes, if you like) passing through the eye of the needle as mentioned in the OP) quite explicitly say that this 10x reward is in this world, in addition to reward in the next.

It's only a contradiction if you think the point of the story is to talk about worldly wealth, rather than spiritual richness.

Read it and then get back to me.

Shall we call it ascetic socialism then? There is no mention in these three equivalent passages of giving away property to the community (making it communal property).

The reward is speculated to be either of material wealth of some kind in the next life, maybe a higher position in the heavenly hierarchy than the average person who didn't do what he did, or simply in spiritual reward only. It seems silly to repeatedly say it was one or the other, as no one really knows, not even the scholars really know what the reward is, or if its as concrete as saying we'll get "this" reward for doing "that".

In retrospect, I repeat what I said earlier: That Jesus was a live and let live sort of fellow, in that if you wanted to follow his way, which he said led to God, he told you certain things you should be doing. Whether you did it or not is your choice. Jesus never said no one couldn't have their own property, but that everyone should be willing and prepared to give, fully or not, and that if they give it should be with their whole self.

With that said, it seems he's promoting a mind-set rather than a -ism of any particular kind.

[Grave_n_idle]

Nope, he wasn't at all.

Advocating free-will charity is quite a bit different than"no-state" state enforced wealth redistribution.

And the notion that rich people are potentially less likely to enter the kingdom of God is not communist. It merely demonstrates the truth behind the corrupting allure of wealth, and the amassing of wealth.

One can be rich, and still a Christian (that is to say, a follower of Jesus).

No, one can be rich and call oneself a Christian. Not the same thing.

No, you can be rich and still be a Christian. It just becomes harder as the more wordly riches you have, the harder it is to give your soul to the Lord. That doesn't make them mutually exclusive.

No, you can't. If you're rich, you're not a Christian, you're lying to yourself and paying lip-service to Christ.

Jesus was pretty explicit about giving away your wealth. If you have wealth, you're placing your temporal comfort above Jesus' will - and that means you're no real Christian.

[Pancakes Wrath]

After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!

Whoa, wait, you're asking a question about Jesus and asking NSG not to turn it into a religious discussion?

What a n00b.

[Free Soviets]

No, you can't. If you're rich, you're not a Christian, you're lying to yourself and paying lip-service to Christ.

Jesus was pretty explicit about giving away your wealth. If you have wealth, you're placing your temporal comfort above Jesus' will - and that means you're no real Christian.

man, who cares what some mexican had to say? real christians™ know that what really matters is hating gay people.