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Was Jesus a Communist?

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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:51 am

I think what Jesus was implying was that greed will keep you out of Heaven. You can be rich and not be greedy. I mean look at the millions, if not billions of dollars the Gates (Bill Gates and his wife) donate to charity every year, esp. to AIDS research and putting computers into the class room. Would you call them greedy?

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Bafuria
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Postby Bafuria » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:54 am

Assuming he existed?

Yes.
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Glorious Homeland
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Postby Glorious Homeland » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:55 am

Living Freedom Land wrote:
Glorious Homeland wrote:
Living Freedom Land wrote:
The Holy Bible wrote:It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter into the kingdom of God. And they were astonished out of measure, saying among themselves, Who then can be saved? And Jesus looking upon them saith, With men it is impossible, but not with God: for with God all things are possible.


The Bible clearly says, with God, all things are possible. The real problem is not wealth, but that men let wealth get between them and God.

Funny how the rich Americans always say that. But then America is a country that was founded by heretics. Socialism in the UK took a large amount of support from the likes of the Methodist church, which supported socialism on theological grounds.

America was not founded by heretics. Rather, Americans were fleeing heretical oppression.

That's the party line, not the whole truth.
In the Columbia Encyclopedia, it is stated that "Although not actively persecuted, the group was subjected to ecclesiastical investigation and to the mockery, criticism, and disfavor of their neighbors.".[12]

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They fell out of favour with the Church of England for goodness sake. Calvanism of that era was known for it's fundamentalist leanings, which was heresy against the established order. The witch trials were not an uncommon product of protestant sects. Ironic that the story goes they fled from persecution, into being the masters of it. Not exactly Buddhist monk sort of persecuted material.

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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:56 am

Tungookska wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I'm not convinced that an individual can be a communist. Oh, an individual might tout the benefits of communism both real and imagined, but to actually practice communism, he really needs some people to practice communism with.

you mean like the 12 guys and the prostitute that he hung out with?


That's not a commune. That's a rugby team. ;)
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Bamabam
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Postby Bamabam » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:57 am

Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with a brain could figure that one out
Last edited by Bamabam on Tue Jul 20, 2010 11:40 am, edited 1 time in total.

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The Tofu Islands
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Postby The Tofu Islands » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:57 am

Bamabam wrote:I think Jesus wants you to give out of your own heart not have a government steal it from you.He meant that you should stop caring after material things so much,because after you die it doesnt matter,so you should give away to those who need it more.

Communism can be voluntary. Plenty of communists (mostly of the libertarian and anarchist variety) would not want people to be required to participate against their will.

Bamabam wrote:Communism also is a secular government trying to build a utopia without God,which God warns against.

No, it isn't. Communism is not inherently non-religious. There have existed religious communists of various sorts, such as the Diggers.

Bamabam wrote:God also many times in the bible talks laziness and warns against it,and says you should earn based off your work.Which is against marxism thought that all deserve equal pay no matter the work done.

I kinda doubt that that is what Marxism requires. Besides, communism is not about equal pay regardless of work. A better summary would be "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (which matches what the apostles did in Acts 4:32-35 very well).

Bamabam wrote:So i could say Jesus was a conservative with a very ,very warm giving heart.

The second half of that is true, however he wasn't a conservative. The conservatives of that time (i.e. those who wanted to maintain the current social order) were the Pharisees.
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Dododecapod
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Postby Dododecapod » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:58 am

Bamabam wrote:
Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with half a brain could figure that one out


Actually, there is considerable question, though this isn't the place for that discussion.
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United Marktoria
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Postby United Marktoria » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:59 am

Jesus basically preached about Peace and Salvation. I don't really believe his beliefs are to be considered a political theory, but more like a Philosophy.
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Conserative Morality wrote:He stares into your soul and says 'If you oppose Freedom, I will rip out your heart and fertilize my fields with your blood, afterwords, I will construct architectural marvels with your bones and write entire books on your cured skin.'
You can tell a lot about a man's intentions from his stare.

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Tungookska wrote:you mean like the 12 guys and the prostitute that he hung out with?

That's not a commune. That's a rugby team. ;)

Ifreann wrote:I'm an atheist because God spoke to me through a burning pile of evidence bush and said unto me "Go forth, and piss my people off!".

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United Marktoria
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Postby United Marktoria » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:59 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Tungookska wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I'm not convinced that an individual can be a communist. Oh, an individual might tout the benefits of communism both real and imagined, but to actually practice communism, he really needs some people to practice communism with.

you mean like the 12 guys and the prostitute that he hung out with?


That's not a commune. That's a rugby team. ;)

Sigged. :)
Political Compass
Economic Left/Right: -3.00
Social Libertarian/Authoritarian: -3.03
Conserative Morality wrote:He stares into your soul and says 'If you oppose Freedom, I will rip out your heart and fertilize my fields with your blood, afterwords, I will construct architectural marvels with your bones and write entire books on your cured skin.'
You can tell a lot about a man's intentions from his stare.

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Tungookska wrote:you mean like the 12 guys and the prostitute that he hung out with?

That's not a commune. That's a rugby team. ;)

Ifreann wrote:I'm an atheist because God spoke to me through a burning pile of evidence bush and said unto me "Go forth, and piss my people off!".

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Lackadaisical2
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Postby Lackadaisical2 » Tue Jul 20, 2010 8:59 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Tungookska wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I'm not convinced that an individual can be a communist. Oh, an individual might tout the benefits of communism both real and imagined, but to actually practice communism, he really needs some people to practice communism with.

you mean like the 12 guys and the prostitute that he hung out with?


That's not a commune. That's a rugby team. ;)

I knew there were hookers, but I had no idea they really meant prostitute.
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Bamabam
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Postby Bamabam » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:07 am

The Tofu Islands wrote:
Bamabam wrote:I think Jesus wants you to give out of your own heart not have a government steal it from you.He meant that you should stop caring after material things so much,because after you die it doesnt matter,so you should give away to those who need it more.

Communism can be voluntary. Plenty of communists (mostly of the libertarian and anarchist variety) would not want people to be required to participate against their will.

Bamabam wrote:Communism also is a secular government trying to build a utopia without God,which God warns against.

No, it isn't. Communism is not inherently non-religious. There have existed religious communists of various sorts, such as the Diggers.

Bamabam wrote:God also many times in the bible talks laziness and warns against it,and says you should earn based off your work.Which is against marxism thought that all deserve equal pay no matter the work done.

I kinda doubt that that is what Marxism requires. Besides, communism is not about equal pay regardless of work. A better summary would be "from each according to their ability, to each according to their need" (which matches what the apostles did in Acts 4:32-35 very well).

Bamabam wrote:So i could say Jesus was a conservative with a very ,very warm giving heart.

The second half of that is true, however he wasn't a conservative. The conservatives of that time (i.e. those who wanted to maintain the current social order) were the Pharisees.

I see what you are saying with Acts 4:32-35.But that is out of personal choice not a forced government law.And by conservative i meant compared to how we today call a "conservative" which is why i think many of todays conservatives are religious or at least claim to be christians.And christians tend to take a conservative view if not minimum a moderate right stance.

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Bamabam
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Postby Bamabam » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:12 am

Dododecapod wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with half a brain could figure that one out


Actually, there is considerable question, though this isn't the place for that discussion.

I am guessing your going to say the bible was written a couple hundred years later like most liberals like to tell me.But there is evidence outside the bible that some of the books could have been written around 40 A.D.Yes the bible its self wasnt put together since a long ways.But the scriptures are very factual,and timely in there writing by the actual people who claimed to write them.

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Lunatic Goofballs
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Postby Lunatic Goofballs » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:14 am

Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Tungookska wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I'm not convinced that an individual can be a communist. Oh, an individual might tout the benefits of communism both real and imagined, but to actually practice communism, he really needs some people to practice communism with.

you mean like the 12 guys and the prostitute that he hung out with?


That's not a commune. That's a rugby team. ;)

I knew there were hookers, but I had no idea they really meant prostitute.


Now you know. :)
Life's Short. Munch Tacos.

“Life should not be a journey to the grave with the intention of arriving safely in a pretty and well preserved body, but rather to skid in broadside in a cloud of smoke, thoroughly used up, totally worn out, and loudly proclaiming "Wow! What a Ride!”
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Dododecapod
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Postby Dododecapod » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:20 am

Bamabam wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with half a brain could figure that one out


Actually, there is considerable question, though this isn't the place for that discussion.

I am guessing your going to say the bible was written a couple hundred years later like most liberals like to tell me.But there is evidence outside the bible that some of the books could have been written around 40 A.D.Yes the bible its self wasnt put together since a long ways.But the scriptures are very factual,and timely in there writing by the actual people who claimed to write them.


No, you're quite right, we have corroborating evidence as to the time and places of the writing of various parts of the Bible (some - notably Revelations - were written considerably later than the Gospels).

However, we have NO corroborating evidence for the events contained in the Gospels themselves.

Given they're in the Bible, a source that, frankly, gets an awful lot of history very badly wrong, and is considered at best a Level 3 source of historical information, all of the information regarding Jesus of Nazareth - including his existence - becomes quite questionable.
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The Tofu Islands
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Postby The Tofu Islands » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:29 am

Bamabam wrote:I see what you are saying with Acts 4:32-35.But that is out of personal choice not a forced government law.

Which doesn't make it not communist. As I mentioned in the first paragraph of the post you were supposedly replying to.

Bamabam wrote:And by conservative i meant compared to how we today call a "conservative" which is why i think many of todays conservatives are religious or at least claim to be christians.

I doubt he'd agree with, for example, pro-gun and anti-tax positions that most USian conservatives seem to hold.
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:29 am

Bamabam wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with half a brain could figure that one out


Actually, there is considerable question, though this isn't the place for that discussion.

I am guessing your going to say the bible was written a couple hundred years later like most liberals like to tell me.But there is evidence outside the bible that some of the books could have been written around 40 A.D.Yes the bible its self wasnt put together since a long ways.But the scriptures are very factual,and timely in there writing by the actual people who claimed to write them.

What evidence for a date in the 40s? The earliest date I've seen is early 50s, but in all cases biblical scholars hedge their bets with a ten to twenty year spread. For instance, the NIV Study Bible gives the date of Matthew as being between about 50 to 70 AD, and of Mark to the 50s to the early or late 60s. The thing is, we simply do not know. And the authorship of the Synoptic Gospels is also open to dispute.

As for the scriptures being factual, that's open to debate. The base event, the Roman census that made Joseph and Mary travel to Bethlehem, did not happen when the Gospel of Luke says it did. Furthermore, Joseph and Mary did not reside in Roman territory but in the territory of a client king, one of Herod the great's sons. Finally, a Roman census did not require you to return to your family's ancestral home to be counted. You were counted where you resided.
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Class Warhair
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Postby Class Warhair » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:31 am

Pandas and Heineken wrote:After watching some religious crap, it seems that Jesus hated the rich and loved the poor. To me, it seems that Jesus constantly stated that the rich had no power over the poor. Jesus even said himself:
"It's very hard for a rich man to get into Heaven. It's easier for a camel to get through the eye of a needle."
This says to me that unless you're poor, you're going to Hell. Thoughts?

NOTE: PLEASE DON'T TURN THIS INTO A RELIGION DISCUSSION!


OP minus RELIGION = "Was some guy a Communist?"

Yes, some guy was a communist. End of discussion.

:rofl:
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Geniasis
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Postby Geniasis » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:35 am

Bamabam wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with half a brain could figure that one out


Actually, there is considerable question, though this isn't the place for that discussion.

I am guessing your going to say the bible was written a couple hundred years later like most liberals like to tell me.But there is evidence outside the bible that some of the books could have been written around 40 A.D.Yes the bible its self wasnt put together since a long ways.But the scriptures are very factual,and timely in there writing by the actual people who claimed to write them.


Mark and Luke, the two earliest gospels, were written no earlier than 70 AD--about 30 years after the death after the death of Christ.
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Myrensis wrote:I say turn it into a brothel, that way Muslims and Christians can be offended together.


DaWoad wrote:nah, she only fought because, as everyone knows, the brits can't make a decent purse to save their lives and she had a VERY important shopping trip coming up!


Reichskommissariat ost wrote:Women are as good as men , I dont know why they constantly whine about things.


Euronion wrote:because how dare me ever ever try to demand rights for myself, right men, we should just lie down and let the women trample over us, let them take awa our rights, our right to vote will be next just don't say I didn't warn ou

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Farnhamia
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Postby Farnhamia » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:39 am

Geniasis wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Dododecapod wrote:
Bamabam wrote:
Bafuria wrote:Assuming he existed?

Yes.

He obviously exsisted.Anyone with half a brain could figure that one out


Actually, there is considerable question, though this isn't the place for that discussion.

I am guessing your going to say the bible was written a couple hundred years later like most liberals like to tell me.But there is evidence outside the bible that some of the books could have been written around 40 A.D.Yes the bible its self wasnt put together since a long ways.But the scriptures are very factual,and timely in there writing by the actual people who claimed to write them.


Mark and Luke, the two earliest gospels, were written no earlier than 70 AD--about 30 years after the death after the death of Christ.

Matthew is the earliest, I believe, but there is so much material shared among Matthew, Mark and Luke that some scholars have postulated a separate collection of stories about Jesus that predates them all. The earliest date for Matthew is the 50s, but most favor a slightly later date, in the 60s.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
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Class Warhair
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Postby Class Warhair » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:41 am

Wilgrove wrote:I think what Jesus was implying was that greed will keep you out of Heaven. You can be rich and not be greedy. I mean look at the millions, if not billions of dollars the Gates (Bill Gates and his wife) donate to charity every year, esp. to AIDS research and putting computers into the class room. Would you call them greedy?


"Implying?" Why didn't he say what he meant then?

The obvious interpretation is that if you die rich you have little chance of going to heaven.

It could also mean that the soul goes to heaven (through the eye of a needle) without the wealth of the world. "You can't take it with you".
"While you're at the bar, Correct Line, see if you can steal a drink for Categorical Imperative. He'll need one when he wakes up" -- CW, 1983, Manning Bar.

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Geniasis
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Postby Geniasis » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:41 am

My Bible places Matthew somewhere around 85 CE.
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Myrensis wrote:I say turn it into a brothel, that way Muslims and Christians can be offended together.


DaWoad wrote:nah, she only fought because, as everyone knows, the brits can't make a decent purse to save their lives and she had a VERY important shopping trip coming up!


Reichskommissariat ost wrote:Women are as good as men , I dont know why they constantly whine about things.


Euronion wrote:because how dare me ever ever try to demand rights for myself, right men, we should just lie down and let the women trample over us, let them take awa our rights, our right to vote will be next just don't say I didn't warn ou

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Perspicacious Lawyers
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Postby Perspicacious Lawyers » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:43 am

The rich were different back then than they are now. Now they are hardworking, which is the only way to riches. Back in that day they got everything from family and were oppressive, most rich were--oh fuck it I dont know...
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Wilgrove
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Postby Wilgrove » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:44 am

Perspicacious Lawyers wrote:The rich were different back then than they are now. Now they are hardworking, which is the only way to riches. Back in that day they got everything from family and were oppressive, most rich were--oh fuck it I dont know...


Probably the most honest statement in this thread.

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Pandas and Heineken
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Postby Pandas and Heineken » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:49 am

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Lackadaisical2 wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:
Tungookska wrote:
Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I'm not convinced that an individual can be a communist. Oh, an individual might tout the benefits of communism both real and imagined, but to actually practice communism, he really needs some people to practice communism with.

you mean like the 12 guys and the prostitute that he hung out with?


That's not a commune. That's a rugby team. ;)

I knew there were hookers, but I had no idea they really meant prostitute.


Now you know. :)

You learn something new everyday.
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Grave_n_idle
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Postby Grave_n_idle » Tue Jul 20, 2010 9:50 am

Dododecapod wrote:No. The Jesus of the Bible was an ascetic - one who seeks to live simply, without the distractions of goods and ownership, that he may perfect himself spiritually. When asked how to be a good folower of him, he says to do likewise, to give away your worldly goods and follow the ascetic path.
A good communist wants everyone to have equal access to everything. Jesus wanted to have nothing.


Communism, in one of it's most common forms, can be understood as 'to everyone, according to need, from everyone, according to ability".

That's pretty much Jesus' attributed philosophy - you keep only what you need, and you give everything you can to the cause - so it's not hard to see the scriptural Jesus as an idealised communist.
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