NationStates

The Cat-Tribe wrote:Um. Just because (in bizarre theory) one can be unaware of a word's meaning, doesn't make that word meaningless.

I never said it did.

But you've shown a bad habit--first with Intangelon earlier in this thread and just now with me--of pretending people said something other than what they actually did say.

Bluth Corporation wrote:

The Cat-Tribe wrote:Um. Just because (in bizarre theory) one can be unaware of a word's meaning, doesn't make that word meaningless.

I never said it did.

But you've shown a bad habit--first with Intangelon earlier in this thread and just now with me--of pretending people said something other than what they actually did say.

I'm sorry. I mistook you for the person that said this:

Bluth Corporation wrote:

Spredronia wrote:<CENSORED>=SO RACIST I WILL CHOP YOUR HEAD OFF IF YOU SAY IT!!!

No, it's not. It's just a word.

An attitude is racist. A word is not. Using a word does not necessarily imply a certain attitude.

Are now agreeing with me that the word "nigger" has a racist meaning -- independent of the user's knowledge thereof?

Or, in thinking you won't agree, am I pretending you've taken a position you haven't?

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Are now agreeing with me that the word "nigger" has a racist meaning

Of course not--because it doesn't. It has a meaning, to be sure, but not an inherently racist one--that only exists when used in a certain context with a certain intent.

You're making a classic bait-and-switch argument: First you claim that I said "nigger" has no meaning, then when I point out that I said no such thing, in your response you sneakily add the modifier "racist" before "meaning" and act like that was in your initial claim when anyone can see it wasn't.

Bluth Corporation wrote:

The Cat-Tribe wrote:
Are now agreeing with me that the word "nigger" has a racist meaning

Of course not--because it doesn't. It has a meaning, to be sure, but not an inherently racist one--that only exists when used in a certain context with a certain intent.

You're making a classic bait-and-switch argument: First you claim that I said "nigger" has no meaning, then when I point out that I said no such thing, in your response you sneakily add the modifier "racist" before "meaning" and act like that was in your initial claim when anyone can see it wasn't.

Forgive me for trying to follow your twisted "logic." You claimed the word could have no meaning to someone that had not heard it and that that person could innocently believe the word meant simply "black people."

Either the word has an inherent meaning or it doesn't. Pick a side.

But, pray tell, explain to us again why the dictionaries are wrong and there is nothing inherently racist in the term "nigger."

Is there anything inherently objectionable in the term "Randroid"? How about "mother-fucker"?

Bottle wrote:I certainly agree that it is crummy to basically consider white people to be "regular" Americans, and then anybody else has to be a special kind of American (African-American, Latino-American, etc).

But I also think that racism and racial issues still exist and it's stupid to pretend they don't. Being black in America still means that a whole fuckton of things will be different for you than they would if you were white. I don't think progress is best served by closing your eyes and pretending those differences don't exist.

Agreed. It irritated me in November when there were a slew of articles about how the US was now "post-racial" because Barack Obama was elected. Of course it isn't post-racial. Admitting that isn't the same as condoning it.
And actually, I know plenty of people who consider themselves Polish-American, or German-American, or Italian-American, etc. It doesn't carry the same importance, of course, but identifying as a "hyphenated-American" is not exclusive to those with ancestor from Africa.

The Cat-Tribe wrote:Forgive me for trying to follow your twisted "logic." You claimed the word could have no meaning to someone that had not heard it and that that person could innocently believe the word meant simply "black people."

No, I claimed it had no racist meaning to that person. Again, pretending I said something I didn't.

Either the word has an inherent meaning or it doesn't. Pick a side.

Words never have an inherent meaning, nor have I ever claimed they do. Words have meanings, certainly--but those meanings are entirely a function of the intent of the speaker.

But, pray tell, explain to us again why the dictionaries are wrong and there is nothing inherently racist in the term "nigger."

Because it's absurd to say that someone who calls someone a "nigger" who is completely unaware of any racist connotations and is using it with a perfectly innocent intent is making a "racist remark."

I don't deny that someone unfamiliar with the speaker's background may interpret it as a racist remark that situation--but such interpretations are wrong, because there is no racism without racist intent.

EvilDarkMagicians wrote:Whenever I hear this phrase..I laugh. A black person here would never be called African British...it just sounds silly. By pointing out this Africanism in someone...does that make it racist or not what is your views?

I don't even think a hardline politically correct douchebag considers the term "African American" racist.

Personally, I usually tend to use the terms "Black" and "Negro," when referring to a person of African origin.

Bluth Corporation wrote:

The Cat-Tribe wrote:Forgive me for trying to follow your twisted "logic." You claimed the word could have no meaning to someone that had not heard it and that that person could innocently believe the word meant simply "black people."

No, I claimed it had no racist meaning to that person. Again, pretending I said something I didn't.

Either the word has an inherent meaning or it doesn't. Pick a side.

Words never have an inherent meaning, nor have I ever claimed they do. Words have meanings, certainly--but those meanings are entirely a function of the intent of the speaker.

But, pray tell, explain to us again why the dictionaries are wrong and there is nothing inherently racist in the term "nigger."

Because it's absurd to say that someone who calls someone a "nigger" who is completely unaware of any racist connotations and is using it with a perfectly innocent intent is making a "racist remark."

I don't deny that someone unfamiliar with the speaker's background may interpret it as a racist remark that situation--but such interpretations are wrong, because there is no racism without racist intent.

1. No racist meaning to the person that doesn't know it has a racist meaning =/= "no racist meaning"

2. You accuse me of misrepresenting your position by alleging you said a word had no meaning .... and then you say words have no inherent meanings. I guess dictionaries are just nonsense.

3. Now you are moving the goalposts. Did I say that anyone that uses the word "nigger" must have a racist intent? No. I just said the word has a racist meaning. That is it's primary meaning. And the theoretical possibility that someone might use the term "nigger" to describe black people without knowing it is prejorative doesn't change the facts that (1) it is prejorative and (2) it is reasonable to assume one using the word knows it is prejorative.

EDIT: This is like Alice's discussion with Humpty Dumpty: "'When I use a word,’ Humpty Dumpty said, in a rather scornful tone, ‘it means just what I choose it to mean, neither more nor less.'"

The benefits of being White : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TG4f9zR5yzY

No Names Left Damn It wrote:I don't consider it racist, just stupid. Why not just call everyone American, instead of dividing and labelling everyone?

We have a winner!

No...most Africans came here for better job propects

WOW!





I know this is mean, but i'm not gonna lie.....I laughed.....

Hardly racist, it's the preferred term of address according to the NAACP (I am a former member).

Some of the group in question still prefer "black" but some of them tend to discriminate against African Americans of mixed parentage.

Okay this N-word debate is pointless. Using that word toward someone is bad. But if I'm not misunderstanding his point, he's saying you can use the word without insulting someone, as you yourself have been doing in this entire debate, and therefore it can be used without racist meaning... Like, "I looked up the word nigger in the dictionary." Not racist there... but that's hardly relevant.

The Cat-Tribe wrote:Back on topic ....

Okay. I'm with you on this part.

The Cat Tribe wrote:1. Black Americans do not all have the same skin tone.

Neither do "whites".

The Cat Tribe wrote:2. Some non-blacks have darker skin than some blacks.

Some non-whites have whiter skin than whites.

The Cat Tribe wrote:3. I don't think I've ever met an African-American whose skin was literally black in color. Very, very dark brown. But black? At the very least it is rare.

Ever met a pure white person, that'd probably hurt my eyes.

So, why is "white" okay, and "black" not okay? If yo're saying that both terms are wrong, then I can agree to disagree, as I think both are fine. But, it makes no sense that it is okay to say "white" and not "black".

The Cat-Tribe wrote:1. No racist meaning to the person that doesn't know it has a racist meaning =/= "no racist meaning".

This comes back to "inherent" meaning. Sure, most people associate racism with the word "nigger" this is not an unalterable "fact" however. Look even at many members of the black community themselves who use the word as a self-labeling, but not in a racist, or offensive manner.

The Cat-Tribe wrote:and then you say words have no inherent meanings. I guess dictionaries are just nonsense.

Your representation of his viewpoint and your conclusion don't follow. Who said anything about dictionaries? I have a dictionary from the 1800's, in German, you mean to tell me that every single word in that dictionary means exactly the same thing it does today? Look at the word "gay" which has several recent changes in meaning. Pop at one point never meant a beverage, but now it does. Dictionaries attempt to give as many current meanings of a word as is generally applicable, but the words change, frequently. The claim that 'if words have no inherent meanings, then all dictionaries are wrong!' is whimsical, and nonsensical, the conclusion simply doesn't follow.

The Cat-Tribe wrote:3. Now you are moving the goalposts. Did I say that anyone that uses the word "nigger" must have a racist intent? No. I just said the word has a racist meaning. That is it's primary meaning. And the theoretical possibility that someone might use the term "nigger" to describe black people without knowing it is prejorative doesn't change the facts that (1) it is prejorative and (2) it is reasonable to assume one using the word knows it is prejorative.

Has racist meaning to many people. It is not a fact that the word is a pejorative. Many people understand it in a pejorative sense, certainly, but merely because a lot of people find a word racist, does make that fact. Again, citing that many black people themselves use the term, and I doubt that your argument suggests that any black person who has ever called another black person a "nigger" is a black-person-hating-racist, but by following your logic, one would encessarily arrive at that very conclusion.

Eh I find it stupid because it assumes two things. 1. That they were from Africa, and 2. That they are American.

Blacks is so much simpler.

Wilgrove wrote:Eh I find it stupid because it assumes two things. 1. That they were from Africa, and 2. That they are American.

Blacks is so much simpler.

Agreed.

Edit: On the other hand, assuming is always the best thing to do. *nod*

I never really understood where the term "black" came from. If you look closely (or far away) at my skin, you will observe that it is not black. Indeed, it is dark brown.

*throws you for a loop*

And yes, I am implying that I am of African descent. But I am actually Jamaican American. And yes, I do know a couple of people in Jamaica. Like my entire family.

I expected more support for my plan of putting into use the term 'Chocolate American'. I thought everybody liked chocolate.

Almajoya wrote:I never really understood where the term "black" came from. If you look closely (or far away) at my skin, you will observe that it is not black. Indeed, it is dark brown.

*throws you for a loop*

And yes, I am implying that I am of African descent. But I am actually Jamaican American. And yes, I do know a couple of people in Jamaica. Like my entire family.

That's fine, but do you get more often referred to as "African American" or "Jamaican American"? Indeed your skin is not "black" such a person would absorb all incoming light rays, and be a big visible hole walking around. However, for common usage, I think that "black" is close enough considering similarly enough, I am not White, nor are Indians red, as Asians are not yellow. These colors are used to describe relative skin-tone differences.

Lunatic Goofballs wrote:I thought everybody liked chocolate.

You'd think, right? But I've met some people that don't. Weird, right? Maybe they all banded together and joined NS, and now your idea won't og through because they don't like chocolate.

On the other hand, all of your plans, regardless, have my full support!

African American...

I know they used it, but I would never do. It just sounds 'wrong'.

How do you call American people with Tunisian origins? And not all black people originate from Africa either. There's a small tribe near Sri Lanka with people who look and feel like black people, but genetically spoken are not. How do you call an American that had his origins from that tribe?

And what's wrong about calling black people, black people? They are black people, so? I hate political correctness.

Der Teutoniker wrote:

Almajoya wrote:I never really understood where the term "black" came from. If you look closely (or far away) at my skin, you will observe that it is not black. Indeed, it is dark brown.

*throws you for a loop*

And yes, I am implying that I am of African descent. But I am actually Jamaican American. And yes, I do know a couple of people in Jamaica. Like my entire family.

That's fine, but do you get more often referred to as "African American" or "Jamaican American"? Indeed your skin is not "black" such a person would absorb all incoming light rays, and be a big visible hole walking around. However, for common usage, I think that "black" is close enough considering similarly enough, I am not White, nor are Indians red, as Asians are not yellow. These colors are used to describe relative skin-tone differences.

I'm usually referred to as AA, because most people aren't aware of the physical differences between a Jamaican and an African. But, having read what Lunatic Goofballs wrote above, I will now use the term "Chocolate American," as I am brown, sugary, and delicious.

Hairless Kitten II wrote:African American...

I know they used it, but I would never do. It just sounds 'wrong'.

How do you call American people with Tunisian origins? And not all black people originate from Africa either. There's a small tribe near Sri Lanka with people who look and feel like black people, but genetically spoken are not. How do you call an American that had his origins from that tribe?

And what's wrong about calling black people, black people? They are black people, so? I hate political correctness.

First of all, it's not accurate. Second of all, there are some negative historical connotations to 'black'. Now 'chocolate' on the other hand is an accurate color description and has no negative connotations whatsoever.

Almajoya wrote:

Der Teutoniker wrote:

Almajoya wrote:I never really understood where the term "black" came from. If you look closely (or far away) at my skin, you will observe that it is not black. Indeed, it is dark brown.

*throws you for a loop*

And yes, I am implying that I am of African descent. But I am actually Jamaican American. And yes, I do know a couple of people in Jamaica. Like my entire family.

That's fine, but do you get more often referred to as "African American" or "Jamaican American"? Indeed your skin is not "black" such a person would absorb all incoming light rays, and be a big visible hole walking around. However, for common usage, I think that "black" is close enough considering similarly enough, I am not White, nor are Indians red, as Asians are not yellow. These colors are used to describe relative skin-tone differences.

I'm usually referred to as AA, because most people aren't aware of the physical differences between a Jamaican and an African. But, having read what Lunatic Goofballs wrote above, I will now use the term "Chocolate American," as I am brown, sugary, and delicious.

Yay!

EvilDarkMagicians wrote:Whenever I hear this phrase..I laugh. A black person here would never be called African British...it just sounds silly. By pointing out this Africanism in someone...does that make it racist or not what is your views?

There are caucasian African Americans.... I don't think it's racist. It's a politically correct term, but I don't see the need to use it excessively.