Was the US founded on christian beliefs?

[Muravyets]

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Christians.

Only it hasn't only been dickheaded to just non-Christians. There's plenty of Christian-on-Christian dickheadedness in US history, too. And fairly recent history, at that.

[Antilon]

Those are all racism.

To claim that those were prompted by religious bigotry particularly, you would have to show us evidence that religion was actually the driving force behind them -- that the perpetrators were acting in the name of or on behalf of a religion, and/or that that no members of the target groups were Christians, or that Christian members of those groups were not oppressed. I do not think you will find any of that to be the case. I think instead you will find that, regardless of any question of religion on either side of the conflicts, you will find that the prevail attitudes were "No Chinese Allowed" and "the only good Indian is a dead Indian." And I think you will find that the overwhelming bulk, if not 100%, of all the negative propaganda about those groups focused on racial stereotypes, not religious ones, and that the talk in regard to them focused on words like "white" versus "red" or "yellow" above all else.

Manifest Destiny? Remember that non-Christian = barbarian, and okay to discriminate against? I remember someone saying something like that... I'll see if I can find that person.

[Antilon]

Only it hasn't only been dickheaded to just non-Christians. There's plenty of Christian-on-Christian dickheadedness in US history, too. And fairly recent history, at that.

Only non-christians? Not so much. Catholics in the US were discriminated against for years. The first Catholic president wasn't until JFK in 1960, and even then much of the opposition to him was based on a supposed "The Pope will tell the President what to do!"

See my quote below:

(emphasis added)

The U.S., like many nations, has a history of being dickheads. Period.

Some of people the U.S. has been dickheads to were not Christian. Some of them were.

Does the U.S. tend to have a Christian bias that it shouldn't have? Yes.

Okay, I'll admit I went overboard with the emphasis on just non-Christian nations, so you're right. Undoubtedly, the No-Nothings and KKK did discriminate against non-Protestant Christians.

[Maurepas]

Those are all racism.

To claim that those were prompted by religious bigotry particularly, you would have to show us evidence that religion was actually the driving force behind them -- that the perpetrators were acting in the name of or on behalf of a religion, and/or that that no members of the target groups were Christians, or that Christian members of those groups were not oppressed. I do not think you will find any of that to be the case. I think instead you will find that, regardless of any question of religion on either side of the conflicts, you will find that the prevail attitudes were "No Chinese Allowed" and "the only good Indian is a dead Indian." And I think you will find that the overwhelming bulk, if not 100%, of all the negative propaganda about those groups focused on racial stereotypes, not religious ones, and that the talk in regard to them focused on words like "white" versus "red" or "yellow" above all else.

Manifest Destiny? Remember that non-Christian = barbarian, and okay to discriminate against? I remember someone saying something like that... I'll see if I can find that person.

Um: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

Manifest Destiny is a term that was used in the 19th century to designate the belief that the United States was destined. even divinely ordained, to expand across the North American continent, from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean. Sometimes Manifest Destiny was interpreted so broadly as to include the eventual absorption of all North America: Canada, Mexico, Cuba and Central America. Advocates of Manifest Destiny believed that expansion was not only ethical but that it was readily apparent ("manifest") and inexorable ("destiny"). Although initially used as an catch phrase to inspire the United States' expansion across the North American continent, the 19th century phrase eventually became a standard historical term.

I seem to be missing the part where Manifest Destiny = the non-Christians were barbarians, and were okay to discriminate against...

Im going to have to see a source for your claims...

[Grays Harbor]

See my quote below:

(emphasis added)

The U.S., like many nations, has a history of being dickheads. Period.

Some of people the U.S. has been dickheads to were not Christian. Some of them were.

Does the U.S. tend to have a Christian bias that it shouldn't have? Yes.

Okay, I'll admit I went overboard with the emphasis on just non-Christian nations, so you're right. Undoubtedly, the No-Nothings and KKK did discriminate against non-Protestant Christians.

your quote did not show up until after I had started slowly typing. I am going one-handed today. cat on my lap pretending to be velcro.

[Muravyets]

Manifest Destiny? Remember that non-Christian = barbarian, and okay to discriminate against? I remember someone saying something like that... I'll see if I can find that person.

I know who you mean. Can't remember his name, either.

Interesting point: All those "non-Christians" were also born with deep tans. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

You might want to read historian Kevin Phillips' book The Cousins War. He presents and interesting argument, backed by data, that social/religious issues of the English Civil War were primarily promoted by a select group of families/individuals and that those individuals and their families and descendants apparently never gave up their philosophical conflict, and in fact carried it to North America, where those same families presented the exact same notions in the Revolution (which they lost), the US Civil War, the Manifest Destiny period, and yes, even to this present day. It's a fascinating argument, plus the book makes for a good upper body work out (it's very large).

By the way, those people...they were the Puritans. Remember them? The pro-monarchists whose descendants were the anti-US loyalists?

[JuNii]

your quote did not show up until after I had started slowly typing. I am going one-handed today. cat on my lap pretending to be velcro.

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

[Maurepas]

your quote did not show up until after I had started slowly typing. I am going one-handed today. cat on my lap pretending to be velcro.

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

Are you implying that you are not?

[Muravyets]

your quote did not show up until after I had started slowly typing. I am going one-handed today. cat on my lap pretending to be velcro.

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

Sticky puss.



Did I just earn a ban? *runs away*

[Vetalia]

I believe it was, in a sense; the religious affiliation of the country's population was overwhelmingly Christian and the values that formed the core of our culture were heavily influenced by that religious tradition.

The truth is, however, that many of those beliefs are common among all of the world's religions and are not unique to Christianity alone. I think the founders were well aware of that fact and intended wholly for our country to be open to all beliefs so long as they shared a common sense of ethics and respect for the rights of man. Of course, in practice those noble goals were often subverted (from the brutal actions towards Native Americans to slavery and immigrant exploitation), but at the same time there was a strong underlying belief in constantly improving our country that was also sourced from that religious ethic.

The concepts of free will and the separation of the affairs of God and man that are common among almost all Christian denominations no doubt influenced the ideas of personal and political liberty as well.

[JuNii]

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

Are you implying that you are not?

I don't have one... of either type.

[Maurepas]

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

Are you implying that you are not?

I don't have one... of either type.

I have three and the other one,

[Grays Harbor]

your quote did not show up until after I had started slowly typing. I am going one-handed today. cat on my lap pretending to be velcro.

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

C - A - T

as in, feline.

[Muravyets]

I believe it was, in a sense; the religious affiliation of the country's population was overwhelmingly Christian and the values that formed the core of our culture were heavily influenced by that religious tradition.

The truth is, however, that many of those beliefs are common among all of the world's religions and are not unique to Christianity alone. I think the founders were well aware of that fact and intended wholly for our country to be open to all beliefs so long as they shared a common sense of ethics and respect for the rights of man. Of course, in practice those noble goals were often subverted (from the brutal actions towards Native Americans to slavery and immigrant exploitation), but at the same time there was a strong underlying belief in constantly improving our country that was also sourced from that religious ethic.

The concepts of free will and the separation of the affairs of God and man that are common among almost all Christian denominations no doubt influenced the ideas of personal and political liberty as well.

Are you saying that Christianity invented those ideas?

Because I'm fairly certain they existed before Christianity.

I also would like to see some kind of theological source (some overview site or something) to support your suggestion that separation of the affairs of God and man is common amongst almost all Christian denominations. I'm not stating that it isn't -- I'm asking you to point me to information that it is, because I had been under the impression that the majority of Christian denominations believed God to be involved in all aspects of life, which tends to give them problems with the "render unto Ceasar that which is Caesar's" thing.

[Intangelon]

No.

Next question.

[Antilon]

Just to clarify, I'm trying to prove that religion was just as big a factor in U.S. discrimination as race, if not more than.

Um: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Manifest_Destiny

Manifest Destiny is a term that was used in the 19th century to designate the belief that the United States was destined. even divinely ordained, to expand across the North American continent, from the Atlantic seaboard to the Pacific Ocean. Sometimes Manifest Destiny was interpreted so broadly as to include the eventual absorption of all North America: Canada, Mexico, Cuba and Central America. Advocates of Manifest Destiny believed that expansion was not only ethical but that it was readily apparent ("manifest") and inexorable ("destiny"). Although initially used as an catch phrase to inspire the United States' expansion across the North American continent, the 19th century phrase eventually became a standard historical term.

I seem to be missing the part where Manifest Destiny = the non-Christians were barbarians, and were okay to discriminate against...

Im going to have to see a source for your claims...[/quote]

Okay, my mistake in saying "barbarian", it was more like "non-civilized." They're pretty much the same thing, but I want to get that quote about how non-Christian = non-civilized so non-Christian = okay to discriminate against...

Btw look at bolded. Also, you forgot to add "Themes and Influences"

[quote= Themes and Influences]Historian William E. Weeks has noted that three key themes were usually touched upon by advocates of Manifest Destiny:

1. the virtue of the American people and their institutions;
2. the mission to spread these institutions, thereby redeeming and remaking the world in the image of the U.S.; and
3. the destiny under God to accomplish this work
[/quote]

[Maurepas]

No.

Next question.

Im going to have to see a source for that,

[Sorgan]

We i don't really think THEY founded the U.S. The Colonist did the first to move from England where Quakers (Christians) and they technically made the thirteen original colonies and without them there would be NO America.

[JuNii]

your quote did not show up until after I had started slowly typing. I am going one-handed today. cat on my lap pretending to be velcro.

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

C - A - T

as in, feline.

I like you.

[Maurepas]

Okay, my mistake in saying "barbarian", it was more like "non-civilized." They're pretty much the same thing, but I want to get that quote about how non-Christian = non-civilized so non-Christian = okay to discriminate against...

Btw look at bolded. Also, you forgot to add "Themes and Influences"

[quote= Themes and Influences]Historian William E. Weeks has noted that three key themes were usually touched upon by advocates of Manifest Destiny:

1. the virtue of the American people and their institutions;
2. the mission to spread these institutions, thereby redeeming and remaking the world in the image of the U.S.; and
3. the destiny under God to accomplish this work

I still dont see anything saying it was okay to discriminate against non-christians in the concept of Manifest Destiny...

Even if they believed that it was "ordained by god" it has no bearing on whether discrimination was inherent in the concept...

Im still going to need a source for your claims...

[Muravyets]

Just to clarify, I'm trying to prove that religion was just as big a factor in U.S. discrimination as race, if not more than.

I got that. Unfortunately, you are failing to prove it. With both Manifest Destiny and the oppression of Native Americans and anti-Chinese legislation, you fail to show that religion per se was the driving force behind those things, instead of racism and xenophobia being the driving forces with religion being a subset of Things To Hate About Swarthy People.

You can't say that religious bigotry is equal to or greater than racial/xenophobic bigotry if, in fact, it is subordinate to those things.

[Intangelon]

No.

Next question.

Im going to have to see a source for that,

I got'cher source right here, pal.

[Muravyets]

We i don't really think THEY founded the U.S. The Colonist did the first to move from England where Quakers (Christians) and they technically made the thirteen original colonies and without them there would be NO America.

Um... Huh?

1) Quakers were not the leading church in North America at any time.
2) Quakers were not the first colonists to move to North America from Europe or Britain.
3) The majority of the American revolutionaries, framers of the Constitution, and early politicians who established the nation's government were not Quakers.
4) I do not believe Quakers ever formed a majority of Christians or even an especially influential set of Christians in the US or colonies at any time.

So, I'm not sure how the poor Quakers got dragged into all of this. All they did was sit in New England and make shitloads of money in whaling and international trade.

Someone refresh my memory, please -- was Thomas Paine a Quaker? I think he was one of the few active in the revolutionary cause.

[Maurepas]

No.

Next question.

Im going to have to see a source for that,

I got'cher source right here, pal.

lol, I tend to look to my midichlorians for my source,

[Grave_n_idle]

We i don't really think THEY founded the U.S. The Colonist did the first to move from England where Quakers (Christians) and they technically made the thirteen original colonies and without them there would be NO America.

Colonists could be argued as the founders of colonies... (hence, the name), but the US wasn't founded, then....