Was the US founded on christian beliefs?

[Hayteria]

So can someone explain to me why anyone who wasn't Christian was discriminated against by the U.S.?

It's indirectly, but it still happens, when religious influence is strong enough to cause government laws to revolve around religion, such as with Sunday shopping in the past, or with religion-based discrimination against gay couples even now. Not to mention public funding for some research (like ESCR) being held back for mostly religious reasons.

[JarVik]

So can someone explain to me why anyone who wasn't Christian was discriminated against by the U.S.?

People are dickheads, common problem sadly.

[Maurepas]

So can someone explain to me why anyone who wasn't Christian was discriminated against by the U.S.?

I have yet to be discriminated against based on the fact that I am not Christian...

So, Im not sure what youre talking about?

[Jordaxia]

Oh, why did they stop updating I Drew This when there's still so much left to fight for?

Tell me about it. IDT was pretty much right on about a lot of things, but well, I think her reasoning for ending the site was fair enough. It was a reaction to the bush era in general. Whilst it's not exactly a beautiful new world out there, it was as good a time as any for her to move on from it.

[JuNii]

More interesting question, why should it matter if it was founded on religious beliefs? Why would that create an obligation on the current generation to keep a religious foundation to policy? It should be a matter only of historic interest, not one of policy relevance.

it doesn't. because the INTENT of the US Founding was not to create a Christian Nation.

Way to miss the point of what I said. It was a hypothetical

I'll rephrase. IF (disregarding the fact that it clearly wasn't) the US was founded on Christian beliefs as some on the right have said, how could it be argued that this was grounds for religious influences to still be important in policymaking hundreds of years in the future?

I didn't miss the point (but I will admit, I didn't explain my answer enough.)

It comes down to intent. if the intent was to make the US a Christian nation. then the religious influences would be important because the Christian religion would be the National Religion and as long as the Christian Religion functions within the US borders, then it would have influence on policy making (to answer your Hypothetical.) but if the intent was not to create a christian nation then being baised off of the beliefs is nothing more than just the basic foundation and not really influential to today's policy making as a whole.

however, being that the US does not have a National Religion means that each policy maker can follow their own Religous beliefs, what ever they are.

[Dumb Ideologies]

I didn't miss the point (but I will admit, I didn't explain my answer enough.)

It comes down to intent. if the intent was to make the US a Christian nation. then the religious influences would be important because the Christian religion would be the National Religion and as long as the Christian Religion functions within the US borders, then it would have influence on policy making (to answer your Hypothetical.) but if the intent was not to create a christian nation then being baised off of the beliefs is nothing more than just the basic foundation and not really influential to today's policy making as a whole.

however, being that the US does not have a National Religion means that each policy maker can follow their own Religous beliefs, what ever they are.

Ah. Now I getcha. That makes sense.

[JuNii]

you said that Franklin and Jefferson disagreed that the US was founded on christian Beliefs.

I gave My opinion. never stated it as fact.

So you admit that your statement is not fact, got it...

yep. it's not.

Now, If you refer to my first post of this thread:

No, it wasnt, As Thomas Jefferson put it there is a "Wall of Seperation" between the Church and the US Government...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Separation_of_church_and_state_in_the_United_States#Jefferson.2C_Madison.2C_and_the_.22wall_of_separation.22

Believing with you that religion is a matter which lies solely between man and his god, that he owes account to none other for his faith or his worship, that the legitimate powers of government reach actions only, and not opinions, I contemplate with sovereign reverence that act of the whole American people which declared that their "legislature" should "make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof," thus building a wall of separation between church and State. Adhering to this expression of the supreme will of the nation in behalf of the rights of conscience, I shall see with sincere satisfaction the progress of those sentiments which tend to restore to man all his natural rights, convinced he has no natural right in opposition to his social duties.

Any educated person should know this, claiming that the US is a "Christian Nation" or any other religion thereof is ignorant, and wrong...

Thomas Jefferson clearly states that No Religion, including Christianity, is present within the US Government...

now. do you know the reason for that letter Thomas Jefferson wrote?

[Ostronopolis]

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

[Maurepas]

now. do you know the reason for that letter Thomas Jefferson wrote?

Yeah, it says so in the link:

It was later used by Thomas Jefferson as a description of the First Amendment and its restriction on the legislative branch of the federal government, in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists (a religious minority concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist church in Connecticut), assuring that their rights as a religious minority would be protected from federal interference.

To explain the First Amendment, to a religious minority, afraid that the Federal Government would attempt to interfere in their affairs...

[Muravyets]

If one considers the Pilgrims, then one would have to conclude that the US did start, in the beginning, as a country founded upon Christian Beliefs.

Except of course for the fact that the Pilgrims did not found the US. The Pilgrims weren't even a sect. "Pilgrim" refers to some early waves of colonial immigrants, actually comprising several sects, none of which were opposed to British royal power. In fact, the leading early colonial religious group, the Puritans, were fiercely pro-monarchy, since they believed that the social order was ordained by God and obedience to it was conforming to God's will. The descendants of the Pilgrims were the Revolution's loyalists. In other words, they were NOT founders of this nation. Nor did they contribute much of anything to its development. They fought on the other side, and they did not buy into the principles expressed in the Declaration and the Constitution.

The people who set up the principles on which the US were founded were variously Deists or different kinds of Christians, but they were even more commonly Freemasons, educated and influenced via that club by European humanist/enlightenment philosophy.

[JuNii]

now. do you know the reason for that letter Thomas Jefferson wrote?

Yeah, it says so in the link:

It was later used by Thomas Jefferson as a description of the First Amendment and its restriction on the legislative branch of the federal government, in an 1802 letter to the Danbury Baptists (a religious minority concerned about the dominant position of the Congregationalist church in Connecticut), assuring that their rights as a religious minority would be protected from federal interference.

To explain the First Amendment, to a religious minority, afraid that the Federal Government would attempt to interfere in their affairs...

that's right. *nods*

Seperation of Church and State works both ways. some people tend to forget that. (Not necessarily here on NSG tho.)

[Antilon]

I have yet to be discriminated against based on the fact that I am not Christian...

So, Im not sure what youre talking about?

I am talking about the U.S.'s well known history of racial discrimination against anyone not a Christian Caucasian. Btw, how do you know that such discriminations have not been entirely eliminated, and that you aren't be discriminated against right now

It's indirectly, but it still happens, when religious influence is strong enough to cause government laws to revolve around religion, such as with Sunday shopping in the past, or with religion-based discrimination against gay couples even now. Not to mention public funding for some research (like ESCR) being held back for mostly religious reasons.

Weird, cause this thread had me thinking that the U.S. wasn't very Christian...

People are dickheads, common problem sadly.

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Christians.

[Muravyets]

The NSG Horse ...

That's a nice sculpture. Where'd you find that image?

[Maurepas]

I have yet to be discriminated against based on the fact that I am not Christian...

So, Im not sure what youre talking about?

I am talking about the U.S.'s well known history of racial discrimination against anyone not a Christian Caucasian. Btw, how do you know that such discriminations have not been entirely eliminated, and that you aren't be discriminated against right now

Im pretty sure something has to be done to you in order to be discriminated against...Nothing has been done to me on that basis...

However, you are correct they have historically been discriminated against, but that doesnt mean we were founded based on that, just that we have a large populace of ignorant people, bad luck I suppose, but, its there...

[JuNii]

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Christians.

not just the US. I remember hearing tales of Christians being thrown to the lions... and other countries where not worshiping a certain religion gets one stoned (and not the fun stoned).

so the US isn't exceptional in that fact except that it's set up in a fashion to allow shifting and corrections of past mistakes.

[Muravyets]

Way to miss the point of what I said. It was a hypothetical

I'll rephrase. IF (disregarding the fact that it clearly wasn't) the US was founded on Christian beliefs as some on the right have said, how could it be argued that this was grounds for religious influences to still be important in policymaking hundreds of years in the future?

It can't, in a reasonable argument. But in an argument based on the fallacies of "appeal to authority" and "appeal to tradition", it would have a use. Of course,the authorities and tradition are also fictitious, but if people are going to make up stories out of whole cloth, they may as well start with a fresh bolt.

[Muravyets]

So can someone explain to me why anyone who wasn't Christian was discriminated against by the U.S.?

Will you first please give examples of such discrimination?

[Antilon]

So can someone explain to me why anyone who wasn't Christian was discriminated against by the U.S.?

Will you first please give examples of such discrimination?

Slavery
Sandcreek Massacre
Trail of Tears
Chinese Exclusion Act
EDIT 2:The Black Hills Cherokee Nation v. Georgia and the Indian Removal Act (more appropriate)
and so on.

EDIT: FFS, come on people. Do I really have to spell it out?

[Muravyets]

I have yet to be discriminated against based on the fact that I am not Christian...

So, Im not sure what youre talking about?

I am talking about the U.S.'s well known history of racial discrimination against anyone not a Christian Caucasian. Btw, how do you know that such discriminations have not been entirely eliminated, and that you aren't be discriminated against right now

It's indirectly, but it still happens, when religious influence is strong enough to cause government laws to revolve around religion, such as with Sunday shopping in the past, or with religion-based discrimination against gay couples even now. Not to mention public funding for some research (like ESCR) being held back for mostly religious reasons.

Weird, cause this thread had me thinking that the U.S. wasn't very Christian...

People are dickheads, common problem sadly.

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Christians.

That's not religious bigotry. That's racist/xenophobic bigotry. If you look more closely at US and colonial history, you will find a pattern of discrimination/non-discrimination that precisely follows waves of immigration accompanied by social power shifts and other social stress factors, like war or economic problems caused by industrial advancements. It just so happens that, until very recently, in US history a minority religion was likely also to be an immigrant religion.

[The Cat-Tribe]

People are dickheads, common problem sadly.

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Christians.

(emphasis added)

The U.S., like many nations, has a history of being dickheads. Period.

Some of people the U.S. has been dickheads to were not Christian. Some of them were.

Does the U.S. tend to have a Christian bias that it shouldn't have? Yes.

[The Romulan Republic]

In part, perhaps. Some of its founders were certainly Christians, and most of America at the time certainly was.

That doesn't mean however that those beliefs are exclusively Christian, nor that the nation was ever designed or intended to be a "Christian Nation." The government was created to be pretty explicitly secular, without a single state religion.

So with that in mind, I'll vote "no."

[JuNii]

So can someone explain to me why anyone who wasn't Christian was discriminated against by the U.S.?

Will you first please give examples of such discrimination?

Slavery
Sandcreek Massacre
Trail of Tears
Chinese Exclusion Act
The Black Hills
and so on.

EDIT: FFS, come on people. Do I really have to spell it out?

you do realize that your examples are ones of Race and not Religion.

[Muravyets]

So can someone explain to me why anyone who wasn't Christian was discriminated against by the U.S.?

Will you first please give examples of such discrimination?

Slavery
Sandcreek Massacre
Trail of Tears
Chinese Exclusion Act
The Black Hills
and so on.

EDIT: FFS, come on people. Do I really have to spell it out?

Those are all racism.

To claim that those were prompted by religious bigotry particularly, you would have to show us evidence that religion was actually the driving force behind them -- that the perpetrators were acting in the name of or on behalf of a religion, and/or that that no members of the target groups were Christians, or that Christian members of those groups were not oppressed. I do not think you will find any of that to be the case. I think instead you will find that, regardless of any question of religion on either side of the conflicts, you will find that the prevail attitudes were "No Chinese Allowed" and "the only good Indian is a dead Indian." And I think you will find that the overwhelming bulk, if not 100%, of all the negative propaganda about those groups focused on racial stereotypes, not religious ones, and that the talk in regard to them focused on words like "white" versus "red" or "yellow" above all else.

[Antilon]

(emphasis added)

The U.S., like many nations, has a history of being dickheads. Period.

Some of people the U.S. has been dickheads to were not Christian. Some of them were.

Does the U.S. tend to have a Christian bias that it shouldn't have? Yes.

Okay, I'll admit I went overboard with the emphasis on just non-Christian nations, so you're right. Undoubtedly, the No-Nothings and KKK did discriminate against non-Protestant Christians.

[Grays Harbor]

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Christians.

Only non-christians? Not so much. Catholics in the US were discriminated against for years. The first Catholic president wasn't until JFK in 1960, and even then much of the opposition to him was based on a supposed "The Pope will tell the President what to do!"