Was the US founded on christian beliefs?

[Antilon]

I know who you mean. Can't remember his name, either.

Interesting point: All those "non-Christians" were also born with deep tans. Just a coincidence, I'm sure.

Well, I'm not saying that race and skin color wasn't a factor, so it's definitely not a coincidence. But I will say that Americans used religion as much as (if not more than) skin color as a basis for discrimination.

You might want to read historian Kevin Phillips' book The Cousins War. He presents and interesting argument, backed by data, that social/religious issues of the English Civil War were primarily promoted by a select group of families/individuals and that those individuals and their families and descendants apparently never gave up their philosophical conflict, and in fact carried it to North America, where those same families presented the exact same notions in the Revolution (which they lost), the US Civil War, the Manifest Destiny period, and yes, even to this present day. It's a fascinating argument, plus the book makes for a good upper body work out (it's very large).

By the way, those people...they were the Puritans. Remember them? The pro-monarchists whose descendants were the anti-US loyalists?

I'll look that book up.

Btw, just because Puritians were mainly loyalists doesn't mean that they didn't have influence after the Revolution.

[Maurepas]

We i don't really think THEY founded the U.S. The Colonist did the first to move from England where Quakers (Christians) and they technically made the thirteen original colonies and without them there would be NO America.

Um... Huh?

1) Quakers were not the leading church in North America at any time.
2) Quakers were not the first colonists to move to North America from Europe or Britain.
3) The majority of the American revolutionaries, framers of the Constitution, and early politicians who established the nation's government were not Quakers.
4) I do not believe Quakers ever formed a majority of Christians or even an especially influential set of Christians in the US or colonies at any time.

So, I'm not sure how the poor Quakers got dragged into all of this. All they did was sit in New England and make shitloads of money in whaling and international trade.

Someone refresh my memory, please -- was Thomas Paine a Quaker? I think he was one of the few active in the revolutionary cause.

I dont think so, Im not seeing anything here that says he was, although there is this tidbit that would seem to point at no
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

He became notorious because of The Age of Reason (1793–94), the book advocating deism and arguing against institutionalized religion, Christian doctrines, and promoted reason and freethinking, for which he would become derided in America.

[Muravyets]

Well, I'm not saying that race and skin color wasn't a factor, so it's definitely not a coincidence. But I will say that Americans used religion as much as (if not more than) skin color as a basis for discrimination.

You can say it if you like. You are not proving it, however.

I'll look that book up.

Btw, just because Puritians were mainly loyalists doesn't mean that they didn't have influence after the Revolution.

Yeah, no kidding. That's what Phillips' book is about. My point is that their influence was NOT to establish the principles on which the US was founded. Quite the contrary, they opposed those principles and fought against them. And according to Phillips, they've been fighting against them ever since.

The OP question is "Was the US founded on Christian beliefs?" The answer is, "No," because the people who founded this nation did not look to Christian belief for their philosophical source. And with regard to the Christian colonists, we cannot point to those particular Christians and claim them as a founding influence because if it was up to them, we'd be paying taxes to the UK right now.

So whatever influence they may have had, it was a negative one.

[Muravyets]

[
I dont think so, Im not seeing anything here that says he was, although there is this tidbit that would seem to point at no
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

He became notorious because of The Age of Reason (1793–94), the book advocating deism and arguing against institutionalized religion, Christian doctrines, and promoted reason and freethinking, for which he would become derided in America.

Okey-doke, thanks. I'm thinking of someone else then.

[Luchsandria]

Edit: Dammit, fuck you Khadgar, fuck you right in the ear.

Considering this is a thread involving Christianity, I just wanted to state for a brief moment that this is how the early Church thought Mary was impregnated.

[Maurepas]

[
I dont think so, Im not seeing anything here that says he was, although there is this tidbit that would seem to point at no
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Paine

He became notorious because of The Age of Reason (1793–94), the book advocating deism and arguing against institutionalized religion, Christian doctrines, and promoted reason and freethinking, for which he would become derided in America.

Okey-doke, thanks. I'm thinking of someone else then.

His father was a Quaker, but his mother was Anglican:

He was son of Joseph Pain, or Paine, a Quaker, and Frances Pain(e) (née Cocke), an Anglican, in Thetford, an important market town and coach stage-post, in rural Norfolk, England

It would seem, however, that he didnt take up either parent's faith...

[Antilon]

I still dont see anything saying it was okay to discriminate against non-christians in the concept of Manifest Destiny...

Even if they believed that it was "ordained by god" it has no bearing on whether discrimination was inherent in the concept...

Im still going to need a source for your claims...

Well, I'm going to point out that that belief in a God who supported American expansionism was an important factor in Manifest Destiny, if not the most (there was nothing saying that the list of Themes and Influences was in order of importance).

I got that. Unfortunately, you are failing to prove it. With both Manifest Destiny and the oppression of Native Americans and anti-Chinese legislation, you fail to show that religion per se was the driving force behind those things, instead of racism and xenophobia being the driving forces with religion being a subset of Things To Hate About Swarthy People.

You can't say that religious bigotry is equal to or greater than racial/xenophobic bigotry if, in fact, it is subordinate to those things.

You can say it if you like. You are not proving it, however.

I'll prove exactly that case to you with sources, I'm just having trouble finding those sources. But rest assured, I won't claim to be right without those sources. Unfortunately, I'm a friend's house right now so it's going to take a bit longer than I would normally would to find those sources if I were at my home.

Yeah, no kidding. That's what Phillips' book is about. My point is that their influence was NOT to establish the principles on which the US was founded. Quite the contrary, they opposed those principles and fought against them. And according to Phillips, they've been fighting against them ever since.

I never claimed that. I simply said that they had influence, despite being loyalists, after the Revolution.

The OP question is "Was the US founded on Christian beliefs?" The answer is, "No," because the people who founded this nation did not look to Christian belief for their philosophical source. And with regard to the Christian colonists, we cannot point to those particular Christians and claim them as a founding influence because if it was up to them, we'd be paying taxes to the UK right now.

So whatever influence they may have had, it was a negative one.

Again, I never claimed any of that. However, I will say that Christian sentients towards non-Christians did play a major role in national policy.

[Muravyets]

I'll prove exactly that case to you with sources, I'm just having trouble finding those sources.

I'm sorry, I know this isn't fair to you, but that ^^ made me

If it wouldn't be too bitchy, I would sig that.

Anyway, happy source hunting, but as things stand, you have failed to carry your argument.

[Surote]

Hell yeah why do you think this country hates rights and freedom that goes againist the bible.

[Dyakovo]

If one considers the Pilgrims, then one would have to conclude that the US did start, in the beginning, as a country founded upon Christian Beliefs.

The Pilgrims weren't the nations founders, they were English settlers...

[Antilon]

I'll prove exactly that case to you with sources, I'm just having trouble finding those sources.

I'm sorry, I know this isn't fair to you, but that ^^ made me

If it wouldn't be too bitchy, I would sig that.

Anyway, happy source hunting, but as things stand, you have failed to carry your argument.

I have no problem with being sigged; actually, I would consider it quite an honor (I've never been sigged before).

Regarding the sources, I'm trying to find enough to prove without reasonable doubt.

[Antilon]

U.S. discrimination against non-Christians, based on religion (Part I)
1) http://www.religioustolerance.org/tomek22.htm

In more modern times, the Bible was used to provide the European settlers with an ideology that justified exterminating Native Americans. Particularly remembered is the famous speech by Cotton Maher in 1689 given to the armed forces, when he accused Natives of murdering Christians. (6) Native Americans were almost wiped out by the Europeans who understood Indians as Amalekites and Canaanites, Indian land as equivalent to Canaan, and themselves as God’s chosen people.

(6)Susan Niditch, "War in the Hebrew Bible," Oxford University Press, (1993).

2) JOHNSON v. McINTOSH (8 Wheat., 543)

ample field to the ambition and enterprise of all; and the character and religion of its inhabitants afforded an apology for considering them as a people over whom the superior genius of Europe might claim an ascendency. The potentates of the old world found no difficulty in convincing themselves that they made ample compensation to the inhabitants of the new, by bestowing on them civilization and Christianity, in exchange for unlimited independence. But, as they were all in pursuit of nearly the same object, it was necessary, in order to avoid conflicting settlements, and consequent war with each other, to establish a principle, which all should acknowledge as the law by which the right of acquisition, which they all asserted, should be regulated as between themselves. This principle was, that discovery gave title to the government by whose subjects, or by whose authority, it was made, against all other European governments, which title might be consummated by possession.

The exclusion of all other Europeans, necessarily gave to the nation making the discovery the sole right of acquiring the soil from the natives, and establishing settlements upon it. It was a right with which no Europeans could interfere. It was a right which all asserted for themselves, and to the assertion of which, by others, all assented.

Those relations which were to exist between the discoverer and the natives, were to be regulated by themselves. The rights thus acquired being exclusive, no other power could interpose between them.

In the establishment of these relations, the rights of the original inhabitants were, in no instance, entirely disregarded; but were necessarily, to a considerable extent, impaired. They were admitted to be the rightful occupants of the soil, with a legal as well as just claim to retain possession of it, and to use it according to their own discretion; but their rights to complete sovereignty, as independent nations, were necessarily diminished, and their power to dispose of the soil at their own will, to whomsoever they pleased, was denied by the original fundamental principle, that discovery gave exclusive title to those who made it.

While the different nations of Europe respected the right of the natives, as occupants, they asserted the ultimate dominion to be in themselves; and claimed and exercised, as a consequence of this ultimate dominion, a power to grant the soil, while yet in possession of the natives. These grants have been understood by all, to convey a title to the grantees, subject only to the Indian right of occupancy.

The history of America, from its discovery to the present day, proves, we think, the universal recognition of these principles.

Incidentally, the JOHNSON v. McINTOSH case resulted in the Christian Discovery Doctrine, which supported decisions invalidating or ignoring aboriginal possession of land in favor of colonial or post-colonial governments.

This is just the beginning.

[Pope Joan]

The founders were mostly Deists, believers in a clockwork maker God they usually called "Providence", which basically meant "the design of the way things are."

Most were anti-Catholic (except in Maryland, and there only for a while).

They did not however in my opinion want freedom from religion, but freedom for religion. In other words, go ahead and be a believer, but don't use the power of the state to mess with your sectarian enemies.

I doubt many of them imagined the arguments now being raised by atheists; it was not a common part of the debates of their day.

The Treaty of Tripoli, 1797, publically affirmed the secular nature of our national (but not state) government:
The "Treaty of peace and friendship between the United States of America and the Bey and Subjects of Tripoli, of Barbary," most refer to it as simply the Treaty of Tripoli. In Article 11, it states:
Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers Joel Barlow, U.S. Consul General of Algiers
Copyright National Portait Gallery Smithsonian Institution/Art Resource NY

"As the Government of the United States of America is not in any sense founded on the Christian religion; as it has in itself no character of enmity against the laws, religion, or tranquillity, of Musselmen [Muslims] ; and as the said States never have entered into any war or act of hostility against any Mehomitan nation, it is declared by the parties that no pretext arising from religious opinions shall ever produce an interruption of the harmony existing between the two countries."

http://www.earlyamerica.com/review/summ ... cular.html

John Adams in particular offered some pithy quotes:
http://www.positiveatheism.org/hist/quotes/adams.htm

[Cameroi]

i love the jefferson quote near the beginning of the thread. cuts rather to the heart of the problem.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Some of us complain about "In God we Trust" being on our currency. As I've been collecting coins and paper money, I've seen more of that similar motto usually in Latin American countries. But then I came across an Azerbaijani banknote. This, is what it looks like: http://www.banknotes.com/nk1.htm

[You-Gi-Owe]

Yes, the U.S.A. was founded on Christian beliefs, however the the governance of the nation was not designed to be beholden to one particular religious view.

The founding document, the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE:
Paragraph 1, "...and of Nature's God....'
Paragraph 2, "...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator...."
Last Paragraph, "...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world....", "with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,...."

[Dyakovo]

Yes, the U.S.A. was founded on Christian beliefs, however the the governance of the nation was not designed to be beholden to one particular religious view.

The founding document, the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE:
Paragraph 1, "...and of Nature's God....'
Paragraph 2, "...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator...."
Last Paragraph, "...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world....", "with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,...."

Nature's God - Not a christian thing
Creator - every religion has a Creation myth
Supreme Judge of the world - sounds more Muslim to me
Divine Providence - again not solely a christian consept

[Maurepas]

Some of us complain about "In God we Trust" being on our currency. As I've been collecting coins and paper money, I've seen more of that similar motto usually in Latin American countries. But then I came across an Azerbaijani banknote. This, is what it looks like: http://www.banknotes.com/nk1.htm

I would definitely complain about it...

I do complain about "In God we Trust" as it is UnConstitutional, even though it isnt challenged, I prefer "E Pluribus Unum" its much more at the heart of America anyway...

[Big Jim P]

Edit: Dammit, fuck you Khadgar, fuck you right in the ear.

Considering this is a thread involving Christianity, I just wanted to state for a brief moment that this is how the early Church thought Mary was impregnated.

Very well done.

[JuNii]

Yes, the U.S.A. was founded on Christian beliefs, however the the governance of the nation was not designed to be beholden to one particular religious view.

The founding document, the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE:
Paragraph 1, "...and of Nature's God....'
Paragraph 2, "...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator...."
Last Paragraph, "...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world....", "with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,...."

Nature's God - Not a christian thing
Creator - every religion has a Creation myth
Supreme Judge of the world - sounds more Muslim to me
Divine Providence - again not solely a christian consept

... you know... by this reasoning. "In God We Trust" and "One Nation Under God" then doesn't refer to the Christian God, but can refer to any supreme being.

[Milks Empire]

If one considers the Pilgrims, then one would have to conclude that the US did start, in the beginning, as a country founded upon Christian Beliefs.

yeah, they were totally around in 1776, and had tons of influence in the writing of our Constitution,

1620, ftw,

The only thing the pilgrims founded was a small Colony located where present day Massachusetts lies.

The pilgrims were also argueably the most intolerent group of religious fanatics this country has ever seen, forcing anybody who didn't toe the line out of the colony. Thats how Rhode Island Colony was founded, for example, by people kicked out of Plymouth Colony. Lets not forget the Salem witch trials in the late 1600's either. I don't really consider the Plymouth bay Colonists to be shining examples of what the US should emulate.

I thought that was the Puritans doing that in Massachusetts Bay.
*looks up Roger Williams*
... ... ...
The Leiden Separatists that went to Plymouth invited him in and later asked him to leave on the grounds that he was injecting too much opinion on diplomatic relations with Indians into his sermons. The Puritans later ran him out of town on the grounds of heresy. So we're both right, in a way.

[Milks Empire]

People are dickheads, common problem sadly.

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Protestants.

Fixed in light of how Catholics have been treated nationwide until very very recently and the still pervasive (if unofficial) discrimination against Jews, Mormons, Muslims, and any of the non-Abrahamic faiths.

[Milks Empire]

your quote did not show up until after I had started slowly typing. I am going one-handed today. cat on my lap pretending to be velcro.

... did you just say you're playing with your pussy with one hand while typing with the other?

C - A - T

as in, feline.

I think they knew that and were just fucking with you.

[Maurepas]

People are dickheads, common problem sadly.

True. Still, it doesn't appear to be coincidence that the U.S. has a history of being dickheads to just non-Protestants.

Fixed in light of how Catholics have been treated nationwide until very very recently and the still pervasive (if unofficial) discrimination against Jews, Mormons, Muslims, and any of the non-Abrahamic faiths.

True, but that has very little, if anything to do with the actual founding of the country, unless you want to claim that it was founded specifically to discriminate...

[Milks Empire]

Yes, the U.S.A. was founded on Christian beliefs, however the the governance of the nation was not designed to be beholden to one particular religious view.

The founding document, the DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE:
Paragraph 1, "...and of Nature's God....'
Paragraph 2, "...that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator...."
Last Paragraph, "...appealing to the Supreme Judge of the world....", "with a firm reliance on the protection of Divine Providence,...."

Declaration of Independence ≠ legal document. Sorry.