What If Germany Won World War 2?

[New Bern99]

Thread is ten months old folks...let it rest in peace.

[Rolamec]

I recently watched a movie that had an alternate history of Germany winning World War 2.

The Allied invasion of Normandy was rebuffed. The United States never got a foothold in Fortress Europe and was unable to aide in the liberation of the countries occupied by Germany and instead concentrated their efforts against the Japanese Empire with a similar outcome as happened in real life. The movie takes place some twenty years later where the SS has evolved into a peace time police force and the death camps and Hitler's "Final Solution" were not known to the world. Hitler has mellowed with age and is attempting to put a friendlier face on the Nazi Empire.

The Nazi Empire is still fighting the Soviets in the East and now seeks an alliance with the United States against them.

My question is: Is this turn of events possible? What would Germany had to have done to actually win the War in Europe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvR15G8yEhg First five minutes or so of the movie which is undoubtedly the most interesting part and the only reason I watched the movie.

Isn't there a book about this?

I don't know. Germans would be deep in Russia. England has a puppet, crony king edward whatever of the Nazis. No Israel. I dunno.

[New Manvir]

I recently watched a movie that had an alternate history of Germany winning World War 2.

The Allied invasion of Normandy was rebuffed. The United States never got a foothold in Fortress Europe and was unable to aide in the liberation of the countries occupied by Germany and instead concentrated their efforts against the Japanese Empire with a similar outcome as happened in real life. The movie takes place some twenty years later where the SS has evolved into a peace time police force and the death camps and Hitler's "Final Solution" were not known to the world. Hitler has mellowed with age and is attempting to put a friendlier face on the Nazi Empire.

The Nazi Empire is still fighting the Soviets in the East and now seeks an alliance with the United States against them.

My question is: Is this turn of events possible? What would Germany had to have done to actually win the War in Europe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvR15G8yEhg First five minutes or so of the movie which is undoubtedly the most interesting part and the only reason I watched the movie.

Isn't there a book about this?

I don't know. Germans would be deep in Russia. England has a puppet, crony king edward whatever of the Nazis. No Israel. I dunno.

Yes.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fatherland_%28novel%29

[Ziway]

They would have had to have the nuclear bomb first... and if they did win Palestine would be a flourishing nation in the middle of a very peaceful Middle East.

[Carls-land]

hitler would be assasinated, and we would get a united european republic, or a non rascist military dictatorship.

[Rolamec]

hitler would be assasinated, and we would get a united european republic, or a non rascist military dictatorship.

Wow, where the hell did you get that from?

[Carls-land]

hitler would be assasinated, and we would get a united european republic, or a non rascist military dictatorship.

Wow, where the hell did you get that from?

there were so many assasination atempts on hitler, it would only be some time before he got assasinated

[Tekania]

I recently watched a movie that had an alternate history of Germany winning World War 2.

The Allied invasion of Normandy was rebuffed. The United States never got a foothold in Fortress Europe and was unable to aide in the liberation of the countries occupied by Germany and instead concentrated their efforts against the Japanese Empire with a similar outcome as happened in real life. The movie takes place some twenty years later where the SS has evolved into a peace time police force and the death camps and Hitler's "Final Solution" were not known to the world. Hitler has mellowed with age and is attempting to put a friendlier face on the Nazi Empire.

The Nazi Empire is still fighting the Soviets in the East and now seeks an alliance with the United States against them.

My question is: Is this turn of events possible? What would Germany had to have done to actually win the War in Europe?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvR15G8yEhg First five minutes or so of the movie which is undoubtedly the most interesting part and the only reason I watched the movie.

Isn't there a book about this?

I don't know. Germans would be deep in Russia. England has a puppet, crony king edward whatever of the Nazis. No Israel. I dunno.

sounds like something Harry Turtledove would do

[Western cuba]

Well the Jews wouldn't be alive right now and the USA would not be a superpower so would the USSR. By the way in this movie did Fascist Italy survive or no?

[Ermarian]

I know alternate history is, well, alternate, but it's still supposed to follow realism. I can't see anything Germany could have done to realistically withstand the Soviet army for more than another few years, regardless of Normandy. Even with nuclear weapons. If Germany could have beaten the odds and actually designed and tested one in spite of their research and resource shortage, they still wouldn't have been able to drop it in Russia.

[New Manvir]

I doubt it would have turned out that way. The USSR still would have won, albeit probably in 1946 or 47. Even if Operation Overlord didn't succeed, Operation Bagration probably did and that crushed the German armies in the East.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eastern_Fr ... ummer_1944

The Germans had transferred some units to France to counter the invasion of Normandy two weeks before. The Belorussian Offensive (codenamed Operation Bagration), which began on 22 June 1944, was a massive Soviet attack, consisting of four Soviet army groups totaling over 120 divisions that smashed into a thinly held German line. They focused their massive attacks on Army Group Centre, not Army Group North Ukraine as the Germans had originally expected. More than 2.3 million Soviet troops went into action against the German Army Group Centre, which boasted a strength of fewer than 800,000 men. At the points of attack, the numerical and quality advantages of the Soviets were overwhelming: the Red Army achieved a ratio of ten to one in tanks and seven to one in aircraft over the enemy. The Germans crumbled. The capital of Belarus, Minsk, was taken on 3 July, trapping 50,000 Germans. Ten days later the Red Army reached the prewar Polish border. Bagration was by any measure one of the largest single operations of the war. By the end of August 1944, it had cost the Germans ~670,000 dead, missing, wounded and sick, from whom 160,000 were captured, as well as 2,000 tanks and 57,000 other vehicles. In the operation, the Red Army lost ~170,000 dead and missing (765,815 total casualties, including dead, missing, wounded, sick, among them 5,073 Poles),[43] as well as 2,957 tanks and assault guns. The offensive at Estonia claimed another 480,000 Soviet troopers, 100,000 of them as dead.

Also this:

The neighbouring Lvov-Sandomierz operation was launched on 17 July 1944, rapidly routing the German forces in Western Ukraine. The Soviet advance in the south continued into Romania and, following a coup against the Axis-allied government of Romania on 23 August, the Red Army occupied Bucharest on 31 August. In Moscow on 12 September, Romania and the Soviet Union signed an armistice on terms Moscow virtually dictated. The Romanian surrender tore a hole in the southern German Eastern Front causing the inevitable loss of the whole of the Balkans.

Basically, Communist Europe all the way to the Atlantic..

[The Zombay]

We would all be speaking German

[Illithar]

Even with a failed D-Day, the Nazis still probably wouldn't have won the war. The Soviet Union so vastly outnumbered the Germans that it would only have been a matter of time until Germany ran out of manpower while the Russians continue to drown Germany in a sea of blood.

Also, to whoever said that Hitler would have been assissinated, you do realize that:

A) Several of those plots were false

B) Himmler probably would have become Furher

[New Manvir]

I know alternate history is, well, alternate, but it's still supposed to follow realism. I can't see anything Germany could have done to realistically withstand the Soviet army for more than another few years, regardless of Normandy. Even with nuclear weapons. If Germany could have beaten the odds and actually designed and tested one in spite of their research and resource shortage, they still wouldn't have been able to drop it in Russia.

This.

[Illithar]

I know alternate history is, well, alternate, but it's still supposed to follow realism. I can't see anything Germany could have done to realistically withstand the Soviet army for more than another few years, regardless of Normandy. Even with nuclear weapons. If Germany could have beaten the odds and actually designed and tested one in spite of their research and resource shortage, they still wouldn't have been able to drop it in Russia.

They would probably have to blow away a Russian army in Germany and even that wouldn't have stopped Stalin.

[Carls-land]

Well the Jews wouldn't be alive right now and the USA would not be a superpower so would the USSR. By the way in this movie did Fascist Italy survive or no?

just because nazi germany wins the war, does not mean they would have world domination. there would still be plenty of jews in the americas

[Northwest Slobovia]

hitler would be assasinated, and we would get a united european republic, or a non rascist military dictatorship.

Wow, where the hell did you get that from?

there were so many assasination atempts on hitler, it would only be some time before he got assasinated

If, as the OP says, the landings at Normandy failed, and the Red Army was at least held to a standstill, why would anybody try to whack Hitler again? The Nazis would be winning.

My answer to the OP is: what do you mean be "win"?

1) Survival of the Reich (with some conquered terrority?)

2) Festung Europa

3) Ve are alles speaken Cherman! (Conquest or destruction of the US)

Which you mean makes a big difference.

I think either of the first are possible if the landings at Normandy failed, but if the US developed the Bomb as historical and used it as intended (on Berlin, and then a few major industrial cities), #1 is most likely: we have the Bomb, they have jets, and the war is stalemated.

[Mighty Brittania]

Considering that Russia (for all intents and purposes) defeated Germany singlehandedly (It engaged 80% of the German forces for stalins sake!), no, history wouldn't be terribly different.

For all of you future Hitlers: Don't ever engage Russians, ever.

[Carls-land]

Even with a failed D-Day, the Nazis still probably wouldn't have won the war. The Soviet Union so vastly outnumbered the Germans that it would only have been a matter of time until Germany ran out of manpower while the Russians continue to drown Germany in a sea of blood.

Also, to whoever said that Hitler would have been assissinated, you do realize that:

A) Several of those plots were false

B) Himmler probably would have become Furher

A) no they were not

B) it was only really hitler who liked him. the rest of the high command hated him.

[Carls-land]

hitler would be assasinated, and we would get a united european republic, or a non rascist military dictatorship.

Wow, where the hell did you get that from?

there were so many assasination atempts on hitler, it would only be some time before he got assasinated

If, as the OP says, the landings at Normandy failed, and the Red Army was at least held to a standstill, why would anybody try to whack Hitler again? The Nazis would be winning.

many germans hated him and his policies.

[Carls-land]

Considering that Russia (for all intents and purposes) defeated Germany singlehandedly (It engaged 80% of the German forces for stalins sake!), no, history wouldn't be terribly different.

For all of you future Hitlers: Don't ever engage Russians, ever.

exept that all of europe would be state capitalist.

[Mighty Brittania]

exept that all of europe would be state capitalist.

I am in favour of the soviet union.

[Carls-land]

exept that all of europe would be state capitalist.

I am in favour of State Capitalism.

FIXED

why are you in favour of State Capitalism?

[The Black Forrest]

The USSR didn't defeat the Nazis by themselves.

The US didn't save Europe from the Nazis by themselves.


That is all I am going to say for this tired recycled topic of chest beating.

[Murgoth]

here are my thoughts:
if, by some miracle, hitler was able to repel the allies at normandy, that wouldn't stop the allies. america would possibly take troops from teh european theater and put them into the destructin of japan, but would still have troops in europe. assuming that germany did, god knows how, win the war, they would be completely unapposed. the japanese and american armies would both be depleted, russia would by that point almost collapsed from sheer mass of casualties, and any remaining allied armies would be depleted from trying to liberate europe. of course, the german military would be depleted as well, but if they won we can assume that all invasions of fortress europe failed. and so they would still have a semi-decent force. they would sweep through russia and force britain into submission. so we can say that if germany won the war, it would end at a similair time, with the entirety of the european continent under german control (they would probably betray italy, which would have weathered countless invasions).
the germans would retake nothern africa and the middle east. all the jews in europe would die.
so the world would end up in a stand off between america and nazi germany. unfortunately for america, the sheer amount of reasources and manpower germany would have would make germany more likely to win. america might well have a soviet union stye collapse from trying to fight off facist influence. by today, most of the world would probably be under german or facist rule. germany would slowly mellow out and become more liberal, but not horribly much.
comments?