The Problem about [Radical] Islam (especially to Turks)

[Bilancorn]

They're a 'right-wing atheist'...aka a major oxymoron (they're as conservative as a Marxist-Leninist). They're pretty much mentally insane.

Right-wing atheist is not an oxymoron at all

Yeah I agree, secular conservatism is absolutely possible, just more uncommon

[Bilancorn]

Why are you two so desperate to be European? They will never accept us no matter how much we westernize.

I mean, personally I have not a problem with ppl keeping their culture, including ofc religious beliefs, as long as:
1. Such beliefs are respectful of other beliefs.
2. Such beliefs respect the law and constitutional principle of the country.
3. Such beliefs are not anti-democratic and/or widely discriminatory against minorities, women etc. (example: I am perfectly fine with a Christian/Muslim saying that Gay couples are not families according to their personal belief, but i dont respect the opinion of someone who wants to put them to death). Same goes for someone, fo example, that advocates for removing the women rights to vote, as it would be anticonstitutional.

Personally, I'd say that most immigrants (many of which are muslims) in my country are respectful of those 3 factors and i'm ok with them. While the minority that disregard the country laws should be deported back to their country of origin, full stop.

[Neu California]

Donald Trump a pragmatist?



It sounds less like your problem is with Muslims and more with the far right in general.



(BTW, I live in a city that had a Muslim terrorist attack, San Bernardino, and you know what? There was no real move towards islamic extremism or against it. It was a tragedy, but things stayed the same for the most part)



Anmd your inability to actually define these terms in any meaningful way is your problem, not mine.



Considering you seem to treat all muslims as extremists, I'm putting little faith in your words.



Not even a link?



Israel is not going to be destroyed under a Harris Presidency, and I sincerely doubt that things are going to get as bad as you claim. Your hyperbole is annoying at best.

Rob Henderson on luxury beliefs

Luxury beliefs: "Ideas and opinions that confer status on the upper class at very little cost, while often inflicting costs on the lower classes"

Sounds like most right wing beliefs to me.

One example cited by Henderson is "defund the police".

Which shows a damn shallow understanding of the phrase. It's about redistributing large chunks of the funds that the police get into things like mental health, which is a good thing. Trigger happy cops should not be responding to mental health crises.

"From the River to the Sea" would be another imo. "Islam is a religion of peace" is yet another luxury belief typically held by rich, white liberal Westerners, North Americans and Australasians in particular, who have never experienced the short end of the Islamic stick in their entire lives. America is insulated from the Muslim world by two oceans. There is only one town in the entire country that has a Muslim majority: Hamtramck, MI. That is privilege.

When you define them by their worst and only their worst, maybe. As I see it, you're just islamophobic as fuck, and can't see the idea that moderate islam is perfectly viable, never mind secular statees with muslim majorities, like:

Albania[79]
Azerbaijan[80]
Bosnia-Herzegovina[81]
Burkina Faso[82]
Chad[83]
Gambia[84][85]
Guinea[86]
Indonesia[87][note 2]
Kazakhstan[89]
Kosovo[90]
Kyrgyzstan[91]
Mali[92]
Niger[93]
Nigeria[94][note 3]
Senegal[95]
Sierra Leone[96]
Sudan[97]
Tajikistan[98]
Turkey[99]
Turkmenistan[100]
Uzbekistan[101]

(Stolen from Wikipedia). Show me that these states have descended into what you claim Muslim majority states always will.

COMMENT | A (still) divided electorate - Reflections on polls outcome: Part 2

“Luxury beliefs": Signaling through ideology?

The concept of "luxury beliefs" has gained increasing attention in recent months. It captures the idea that, as status goods become more affordable, ideology has emerged as a new way to signal status. I use a signaling game to derive a prediction related to the concept: given some beliefs are associated with high status, lower status individuals seek to pool with high status individuals by stating these beliefs if the social image gain is sufficiently high. I test this prediction using two online experiments and a series of statements commonly recognised as "luxury beliefs". I find that i) luxury beliefs are not strongly associated with status: they are only perceived to signal college attendance and negatively correlate with income and perceived income; and ii) there is no evidence of signaling using these beliefs in a (close to anonymous) online setting

Good Marriages Are Good. Bad Marriages Are, Well, Bad.

Don't get your talking points from crackpots.

The opposition Perikatan Nasional electoral gains were made from increased Malay support. The popular vote for PN reached 49 percent of the total vote in the six state polls, almost on par with the vote of the unity government. PN increased their seats, gaining 61 seats out of 245, especially in Malay majority areas.

The preliminary analysis confirms that the opposition coalition won over the overwhelming majority of Malays voting, an estimated gain of 19 percent, to reach an average in all six elections of an estimated 73 percent of the Malay vote.

[...]

For Pakatan Harapan and Umno, the share of the Malay vote decreased to an overall figure of an estimated 26 percent in the six elections, a figure in line with the Malay vote received for Harapan in 2018.

[/quote]


According to Wikipedia, they are nowhere near control of the nation, holding 68 of 222 seats in the lower house (20%) and 7 out m70 in the upper (10%) and left out of power in both. And that's after increasing their vote share by 6 points. They're hardly a threat at the moment by my reckoning.

Not all Muslims are extremists, but if voting habits are any indication, nearly 3/4 of all Malaysian Muslims are far-right extremists or otherwise fash-adjacent, similar to the percentage of Palestinians who support Hamas. If it weren't for the 40% of non-Muslims voting for more "moderate" parties, we would've succumbed to full-blown sharia and Islamofascist theocracy by now. We'd be no different than Iran.

Of the three parties in that party coalition, that actually hold seats, one is right wing, one is far-right, and one is centrist, which I would overall call a right-wing coalition, not a far right one. They're not as far-right as you're claiming, regardless.

Non-Muslims are the ones who are preventing this country from going bottom-up altogether. We Chinese infidels literally built this economy from the ground up only for our racist government to steal from us by implementing "affirmative action". Our only crime is to be more successful than the average Malay or Muslim. My grandparents immigrated to Malaysia with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. Now look at us. We're like the Jews of Southeast Asia. Another reason I stand with Israel.

Quite the persecution complex you have there.

[Western European Khilafat]

The rise of Islam has contributed to the persecution, enslavement and genocide of non-Muslim infidels beginning in the 7th century. As a non-Muslim, I have a huge problem with that. There is no room for true equality or coexistence in Islam. You either submit or you die.

I WILL NOT SUBMIT. I will NEVER accept dhimmitude or annihilation.

I don't like Stalin, ergo should I hate every kind of even vaguely socialist idea?
I loathe the Crusades, should I hate every single act of war waged by a Christian?
"No room for true equality"

There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab, nor a white over black, nor a black over white, except in Taqwa (fear of Allah). People are from Adam, and Adam is from dirt.

[Green Lodge]

I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.

[Cerespasia]

Since my school's religion subject (the Islam-centered half) has now moved on to a new chapter, which is Sharia-friendly economics, as well as in some small parts, maybe, the whole boycott on western products, I believe that the same thing happening in Turkey is also happening here in Indonesia, a bit more toned down, though I can't be certain.

[Western European Khilafat]

I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.

Turn it above 10%?
Ethiopia? Ghana? India? Russia? Uganda? Madagascar?

[Kaumudeen]

I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.

Europe's fault for embracing the French Revolution.

Since my school's religion subject (the Islam-centered half) has now moved on to a new chapter, which is Sharia-friendly economics, as well as in some small parts, maybe, the whole boycott on western products, I believe that the same thing happening in Turkey is also happening here in Indonesia, a bit more toned down, though I can't be certain.

Why is this a bad thing?

[Green Lodge]

I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.

Turn it above 10%?
Ethiopia? Ghana? India? Russia? Uganda? Madagascar?

Exactly, like in Chechnya or in certain parts of India. Or in certain parts of London or Paris, or in Hamtramck. Islamisation does not necessarily affect states as a whole, sometimes it just affects local communities. Regarding Uganda, I don't think it's an example of democracy.

[Green Lodge]

I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.

Europe's fault for embracing the French Revolution.

I agree. Man, I wish Christians on this forum were as traditionalist as you are. I'm not saying the French Revolution didn't have some positive effects, I'm just saying the UK chose the better political path.

[Hammer Britannia]

bro, u (OP) ranted about why Armenians are out to get Turks and thus Turkey should IDF them/their attacks on Armenian populations were justified.

u do not get to talk about "the problem about radicals" - you is the radical. in fact, i'm willing to bet radicals like Hamas or Hezbollah would treat my country of Greece with far more respect than u or people who subscribe to ur ideology ever would

[Technoscience Leftwing]

* Any religion that achieved triumph in the Middle Ages is a cultural matrix of the medieval order - despotism, exploitation and scientific and technical backwardness. Adherents of such orders, ultra-right feudal reactionaries, are grouped around religions. Religion is not a "cultural feature", it is a reactionary ideology around which reactionary political groups arise. Such groups harm progress. The advanced philosophy is dialectical materialism, secularism, anti-clericalism. "Materialism must be militant", as V.I. Lenin rightly noted.

[Futurist State of Flassau]

* Any religion that achieved triumph in the Middle Ages is a cultural matrix of the medieval order - despotism, exploitation and scientific and technical backwardness. Adherents of such orders, ultra-right feudal reactionaries, are grouped around religions. Religion is not a "cultural feature", it is a reactionary ideology around which reactionary political groups arise. Such groups harm progress. The advanced philosophy is dialectical materialism, secularism, anti-clericalism. "Materialism must be militant", as V.I. Lenin rightly noted.

To Quote an Antireligionist on Religion...

[The Galactic Empire of Zimbabwae2]

Do you have a problem with the rise of Christianity, which has also contributed to the persecution, enslavement and genocide of non-Christians beginning in the first or second century?



Considering how well Muslims have integrated in the US, and the fact that the far-right (almost always Christians, never Muslims) are far more dangerous than them here in the states, I think you're wrong.



Fortunately those are not the two options in ragards to Islam in general, just the extremist variants.

I do have a problem with the rise of Christianity historically for exactly the same reasons. But most Christians have moved on since then. Christians have never attempted to force their religion onto me through legislation and threats of mob violence. Only Muslims have done that.

I don't live in the States. I'm talking about the whole world. I'm talking about the Muslim world in particular where I live. Your "lived experience" as a privileged American liberal who can afford to disregard Islamic extremism as something totally distant (an example of a woke luxury belief typically held by members of a neoliberal ruling elite and their scions) does not concord with the lived experiences of non-Muslims in the Muslim world who have to deal with this shit constantly on a daily basis. In my country, the far-right are overwhelmingly Muslims, and Muslim extremists pose the greatest existential threat to minorities like us. White supremacy and Christian nationalism are virtually nonexistent here. Non-Muslims in my country are either unable or unwilling to fight for their rights and fail to appreciate the sheer necessity of resistance like the Israelis do.

You are free to openly challenge Christianity or demonstrate every single weekend in support of Hamas and Hezbollah in your country in such a way that I'm not free to openly challenge Islam or express any support Israel whatsoever in my country under pain of arrest or mob intimidation. That is your privilege as a citizen of the freest country in the world. You have the First Amendment, a sympathetic legacy media establishment and an entire apparatus of elite institutions to back you up. We have nothing. Hell, even the Europeans are much worse off than you are in this respect.

Convert, leave or die will be the only options left if Islamic law is ever implemented where you live. If the extremists have their way in my country, these will be our only options.

In any case, we're still waiting for the OP to finish OPing so the discussion is a little open-ended until then.

I've read through your thoughts here on your posts. I'm just trying to understand:

Would you come to the United States given the opportunity (free to come, free citizenship)?
Do you want to come to the US?

If not, could you please explain why?

Your issues seem to be pretty deep rooted in the culture of your area. There are other pretty "Western" socieities which you could also potentially move to. I'm just trying to understand the logic of living somewhere, where you objectively feel your rights are suppressed, if you do indeed have the option of moving abroad

[Technoscience Leftwing]

* Any religion that achieved triumph in the Middle Ages is a cultural matrix of the medieval order - despotism, exploitation and scientific and technical backwardness. Adherents of such orders, ultra-right feudal reactionaries, are grouped around religions. Religion is not a "cultural feature", it is a reactionary ideology around which reactionary political groups arise. Such groups harm progress. The advanced philosophy is dialectical materialism, secularism, anti-clericalism. "Materialism must be militant", as V.I. Lenin rightly noted.

To Quote an Antireligionist on Religion...

That's exactly it. For our generation, born in the USSR before perestroika, at first it was an unverified school slogan - but after the USSR began to disintegrate under the mantras of "religious renaissance" and "revival of national self-awareness", all the harm of religion and nationalism was felt on our own skin. And the theses that religion slows down progress and serves the owners and rulers, laying claim to totalitarian domination - these theses received experimental confirmation.

[Futurist State of Flassau]

To Quote an Antireligionist on Religion...

That's exactly it. For our generation, born in the USSR before perestroika, at first it was an unverified school slogan - but after the USSR began to disintegrate under the mantras of "religious renaissance" and "revival of national self-awareness", all the harm of religion and nationalism was felt on our own skin. And the theses that religion slows down progress and serves the owners and rulers, laying claim to totalitarian domination - these theses received experimental confirmation.

Modern Religion literally is too weakened, beside in Russia, to do most thing it can anymore.

Wars are now for Power, not Religion.

[Niolia]

Could it be possible for a movement within the Middle East (or other Muslim majority nations) similar to Christian Democracy in Europe, but with Islam to arise?

[Futurist State of Flassau]

Could it be possible for a movement within the Middle East similar to Christian Democracy in Europe, but with Islam?

Should be included in the next DLC of Arab Spring.

[Niolia]

Could it be possible for a movement within the Middle East similar to Christian Democracy in Europe, but with Islam?

Should be included in the next DLC of Arab Spring.

I wish the Arab Spring was more successful.

[Liberal Malaysia]

Rob Henderson on luxury beliefs

Luxury beliefs: "Ideas and opinions that confer status on the upper class at very little cost, while often inflicting costs on the lower classes"

Sounds like most right wing beliefs to me.

One example cited by Henderson is "defund the police".

Which shows a damn shallow understanding of the phrase. It's about redistributing large chunks of the funds that the police get into things like mental health, which is a good thing. Trigger happy cops should not be responding to mental health crises.

"From the River to the Sea" would be another imo. "Islam is a religion of peace" is yet another luxury belief typically held by rich, white liberal Westerners, North Americans and Australasians in particular, who have never experienced the short end of the Islamic stick in their entire lives. America is insulated from the Muslim world by two oceans. There is only one town in the entire country that has a Muslim majority: Hamtramck, MI. That is privilege.

When you define them by their worst and only their worst, maybe. As I see it, you're just islamophobic as fuck, and can't see the idea that moderate islam is perfectly viable, never mind secular statees with muslim majorities, like:

Albania[79]
Azerbaijan[80]
Bosnia-Herzegovina[81]
Burkina Faso[82]
Chad[83]
Gambia[84][85]
Guinea[86]
Indonesia[87][note 2]
Kazakhstan[89]
Kosovo[90]
Kyrgyzstan[91]
Mali[92]
Niger[93]
Nigeria[94][note 3]
Senegal[95]
Sierra Leone[96]
Sudan[97]
Tajikistan[98]
Turkey[99]
Turkmenistan[100]
Uzbekistan[101]

(Stolen from Wikipedia). Show me that these states have descended into what you claim Muslim majority states always will.

COMMENT | A (still) divided electorate - Reflections on polls outcome: Part 2

“Luxury beliefs": Signaling through ideology?

The concept of "luxury beliefs" has gained increasing attention in recent months. It captures the idea that, as status goods become more affordable, ideology has emerged as a new way to signal status. I use a signaling game to derive a prediction related to the concept: given some beliefs are associated with high status, lower status individuals seek to pool with high status individuals by stating these beliefs if the social image gain is sufficiently high. I test this prediction using two online experiments and a series of statements commonly recognised as "luxury beliefs". I find that i) luxury beliefs are not strongly associated with status: they are only perceived to signal college attendance and negatively correlate with income and perceived income; and ii) there is no evidence of signaling using these beliefs in a (close to anonymous) online setting

Good Marriages Are Good. Bad Marriages Are, Well, Bad.

Don't get your talking points from crackpots.

[...]

For Pakatan Harapan and Umno, the share of the Malay vote decreased to an overall figure of an estimated 26 percent in the six elections, a figure in line with the Malay vote received for Harapan in 2018.

According to Wikipedia, they are nowhere near control of the nation, holding 68 of 222 seats in the lower house (20%) and 7 out m70 in the upper (10%) and left out of power in both. And that's after increasing their vote share by 6 points. They're hardly a threat at the moment by my reckoning.

Not all Muslims are extremists, but if voting habits are any indication, nearly 3/4 of all Malaysian Muslims are far-right extremists or otherwise fash-adjacent, similar to the percentage of Palestinians who support Hamas. If it weren't for the 40% of non-Muslims voting for more "moderate" parties, we would've succumbed to full-blown sharia and Islamofascist theocracy by now. We'd be no different than Iran.

Of the three parties in that party coalition, that actually hold seats, one is right wing, one is far-right, and one is centrist, which I would overall call a right-wing coalition, not a far right one. They're not as far-right as you're claiming, regardless.

Non-Muslims are the ones who are preventing this country from going bottom-up altogether. We Chinese infidels literally built this economy from the ground up only for our racist government to steal from us by implementing "affirmative action". Our only crime is to be more successful than the average Malay or Muslim. My grandparents immigrated to Malaysia with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. Now look at us. We're like the Jews of Southeast Asia. Another reason I stand with Israel.

Quite the persecution complex you have there.

I never said the governing coalition is far-right. What they actually are is fash-adjacent and fash-sympathetic. Our "moderate" government is always willing to indulge the far-right Islamists from time to time, whether that's banning rainbow-themed watches, shutting down concerts or some other nefarious craziness. And the opposition continues to gain ground and influence anyway. A new generation of recent graduates of radical Islamic tahfiz schools that tell their charges that they will burn in hell if they vote for the wrong party has come of age and they are beginning to flex their terrifying political muscle for the first time. This has been decades in the making. Shopkeepers and mall owners have been intimidated by Muslim mobs for selling Allah-branded socks, liquor and pork in "Muslim areas". They have been accused of such things as "tempting the faith of Muslims". The link in my sig elaborates in detail what this would look like if taken to its logical conclusion.

According to woke BLM logic, racism = power + prejudice. In Malaysia, Malays and Muslims are the majority of the population and they hold the levers of social and political power in every respect. Therefore, it is impossible for me to be "Islamophobic". Not that that's even a real thing anyway. For my part, I have never resorted to labeling you a "Christophobic bigot" in spite of your antipathy toward Christianity because all religions are worthy of the most ruthless mockery and criticism, especially Islam. But it's only Islam and Muslims who ought to be shielded from criticism in your eyes.

Few if any of the countries you listed are "moderate" in any meaningful sense. I doubt Mali is any more "moderate" than my own country is. In fact, large swaths of the Sahel have been overrun by far-right Islamist terrorists altogether. Turkey has become more and more Islamized and de-secularized under Recep Tayyip Erdogan of the far-right AKP. I know for a fact that Indonesia is no better or any more "moderate" than Malaysia is. The purportedly "secular" constitutions of these countries are more often than not nothing more than paper tigers. All of these countries are Third World countries with corrupt or authoritarian governments with limited to no rule of law. The written law won't prevent human rights violations from being committed. Non-Muslim minorities are discriminated against in many of the countries you've listed. Lebanon is "secular" too. Hezbollah, a genocidal, Iran-backed terror group, effectively runs the country in all but name.

Many of these countries were exposed to moderating, secularizing, non-Muslim foreign influences such as classical liberalism and communism and ended up becoming less Islamic as a result. Albania would be a good example of a country that has been almost completely de-Islamized and secularized due to communism despite the purported Islamic faith of the vast majority of its citizens. Which is my point exactly. The more Islamized a country is, the more intolerant it becomes. The less Islamized, the more the reverse is true. This applies within Muslim populations as well as in traditionally non-Muslim countries that experience Muslim immigration on a massive scale.

Many, if not most, Muslim countries have regressed significantly since the '70s. Iran is the most well-known example. Many Muslim-majority countries have only grown more extreme and intolerant, not less, as the decades have gone by. Malaysia and Indonesia aren't becoming any less Islamic or any more secular and tolerant. Our "progressive" prime minister has declared that "Malaysia will never be a secular country". So much for all the empty promises of reform.

I am loathe to admit this, but the communist regimes of 20th century yore, for all its horrors, have been exceptionally effective at curtailing the worst excesses of Islam in historically Islamic regions through overwhelming state violence and brute force. The most secular and religiously tolerant and egalitarian Muslim-majority countries have all been ex-communist countries. History is now repeating itself in Xinjiang province whether we like it or not. Brute force, however unethical or objectionable we may find it, "works". Just something to ponder.

Islam and secularism are, for the time being, mutually exclusive. For as long as the Iranian regime remains in power and for as long as Israel remains under sustained and endless assault from an "army of God" that will never stop waging war until the "Zionist entity" is annihilated and will continue to do so until the whole world is brought to heel by any means necessary, "moderate" Islam will never be viable in my lifetime. It's not something I would rule out altogether and I can't wait to be proven wrong and I will celebrate from the rooftops if I'm proven wrong, but I just don't see it happening anytime soon. Maybe if the liberal Iranian students and their allies are able to topple the Ayatollahs, then maybe they could get the ball rolling in the right direction once again. Maybe. That's why I'm so deeply invested in the Israel-Iran proxy conflict. If anything, "moderate" Islam, far from being a moderating force, could actually serve as a gateway to the more extreme, fascistic, genocidal variants that have dominated for most of Islam's history. The brief period of secularization and moderation in the Muslim world from the early-to-mid-20th century was just that, a temporary respite.

I don't know about American Muslims, but European Muslims are by and large NOT integrated into their host societies in the slightest due to far-left, open-door, multicultural government policies that are tantamount to treason against those who were already living in Europe previously, including both native Europeans AND immigrants alike. Ukrainians and Hong Kongers will have a far easier time integrating into Britain than British Muslims due to their non-Muslim faith or lack of faith altogether. Even British Hindus have assimilated and thrived in the UK in a way that many British Muslims haven't. British Jews have assimilated completely.

"Persecution complex" lol. You just admitted that you either condone or deny the literal persecution of non-Muslims around the world. You are also willfully ignorant of my country's long and checkered history of racial and religious discrimination and could care less about the plight of minorities if it doesn't fit your exceedingly narrow, U.S.-centric progressive narrative. Unlike America, we never had our civil rights moment in the '60s. We have never achieved true racial or religious equality. No Muslim-majority country, again with few exceptions such as ex-communist Albania, have managed to do so. Instead, we were massacred in a series of primarily one-sided, anti-Chinese, anti-infidel, racial and religious pogroms instigated by Malay and Muslim "ultras" affiliated with the far-right ethnonationalist party UMNO that are officially dubbed by our racist government as "racial riots" and portrayed as if all sides were equally willing to slaughter one another.

If you care deeply about the plight of Arabs, Muslims or African-Americans, but not the plight of Jews, Lebanese Christians, Pakistani Christians, Bangladeshi atheists or non-Muslim Malaysians, than I'm sorry, but that makes you a racist and a hypocrite. You're engaging in what appears to be a precursor to genocide denial, but only selectively for certain groups of people that you arbitrarily deem "oppressed" on a whiteboard. This is why I don't trust liberals and progressives to stand with Israel and other non-Muslim infidels in their time of greatest need. This is nothing less than betrayal. It has been obvious since Oct. 7, 2023 that "moderate" liberals have lost the moral high ground in relation to Islam, Israel, antisemitism and true religious equality and coexistence. This is their moral blind spot.

Whatever discrimination Muslims may face in the West is peanuts compared to what non-Muslims have to deal with in the Muslim world. Muslims in the West are regarded favorably by liberals, legacy media, elite institutions and unelected government bodies that have recently taken to fetishizing "victimhood" and "being oppressed", elevating whoever can lay claim to such traits to a position of high social standing. Muslim is currently the new black.

Whereas non-Muslims in the Muslim world are regarded as, at best, an inconvenience (e.g. Malaysia, Indonesia), and at worst, vermin to be eradicated (e.g. Afghanistan, Iran). Not all Muslim countries are equally oppressive and there is some variation in the degree of anti-infidel bigotry and discrimination practiced from country to country, but by and large, with few exceptions, non-Muslims will never be equal to Muslims.

The link in my sig How non-Muslim infidels are ACTUALLY treated under Islam describes in detail what a "pure" Muslim society would look like for non-Muslims. Iran, Afghanistan, Gaza and Pakistan come very close to that ideal of Islam at its "purest". Malaysia is further from that ideal for the time being, but you never know, and I'm not willing to recklessly gamble my life and liberty away like you are. I have everything to lose. You don't.

[Western European Khilafat]

The link in my sig How non-Muslim infidels are ACTUALLY treated under Islam [/spoiler]

Blud what?
If you wanna learn about Judaism do you ask an anti-Semite?
If you ask about Hinduism do you do it from a hater of Hinduism?
So why link to a biased source against islam?
And as well as this, who said they were all perfect examples of completely Islamic law?
Find me a source in the Quran or a hadith that aligns properly with the Quran that promotes harmful stuff
(Me waiting for it to obviously be taken out of context entirely)

[Western European Khilafat]

By the way it also says,

Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).

So if it were a perfectly Islamist state it would NOT allow this.
you're hating on people who happen to be muslim, not Islam itself

[Southglory]

The rise of Islam has contributed to the persecution, enslavement and genocide of non-Muslim infidels beginning in the 7th century. As a non-Muslim, I have a huge problem with that. There is no room for true equality or coexistence in Islam. You either submit or you die.

I WILL NOT SUBMIT. I will NEVER accept dhimmitude or annihilation.

Not very halal brother, mashallah kindess to others.

[Liberal Malaysia]

I do have a problem with the rise of Christianity historically for exactly the same reasons. But most Christians have moved on since then. Christians have never attempted to force their religion onto me through legislation and threats of mob violence. Only Muslims have done that.

I don't live in the States. I'm talking about the whole world. I'm talking about the Muslim world in particular where I live. Your "lived experience" as a privileged American liberal who can afford to disregard Islamic extremism as something totally distant (an example of a woke luxury belief typically held by members of a neoliberal ruling elite and their scions) does not concord with the lived experiences of non-Muslims in the Muslim world who have to deal with this shit constantly on a daily basis. In my country, the far-right are overwhelmingly Muslims, and Muslim extremists pose the greatest existential threat to minorities like us. White supremacy and Christian nationalism are virtually nonexistent here. Non-Muslims in my country are either unable or unwilling to fight for their rights and fail to appreciate the sheer necessity of resistance like the Israelis do.

You are free to openly challenge Christianity or demonstrate every single weekend in support of Hamas and Hezbollah in your country in such a way that I'm not free to openly challenge Islam or express any support Israel whatsoever in my country under pain of arrest or mob intimidation. That is your privilege as a citizen of the freest country in the world. You have the First Amendment, a sympathetic legacy media establishment and an entire apparatus of elite institutions to back you up. We have nothing. Hell, even the Europeans are much worse off than you are in this respect.

Convert, leave or die will be the only options left if Islamic law is ever implemented where you live. If the extremists have their way in my country, these will be our only options.

In any case, we're still waiting for the OP to finish OPing so the discussion is a little open-ended until then.

I've read through your thoughts here on your posts. I'm just trying to understand:

Would you come to the United States given the opportunity (free to come, free citizenship)?
Do you want to come to the US?

If not, could you please explain why?

Your issues seem to be pretty deep rooted in the culture of your area. There are other pretty "Western" socieities which you could also potentially move to. I'm just trying to understand the logic of living somewhere, where you objectively feel your rights are suppressed, if you do indeed have the option of moving abroad

Without running the risk of doxxing myself, I continue to remain where I am due to familial obligations. I also live in the only non-Muslim-majority state in the entire country. Things aren't as bad here as they are on the other side of the country across the South China Sea. But every now and then, something outrageous happens, like a Christian in my home state being sentenced to 10+ years in jail for "mocking Islam". There is also a small but hopefully growing pro-independence movement in my home state. That's something to keep an eye on. My country is also one of the more "moderate" Muslim-majority countries in existence, at least when compared to Iran or Pakistan.

Economic reasons are another factor. Everything everywhere is getting really expensive these days. Living in NYC is several times more expensive than living in, say, KL. I can relate to those, especially in the West, who feel cheated and let down by the system. That's a small part of the reason someone like Donald Trump appeals to me. But support for Israel in its struggle to defeat radical Islam and the Iranian Ayatollahs is the main reason for my support for Donald Trump.

I will also say that I have no desire to move to Europe due to the deteriorating social and economic situation there. Britain is becoming more and more authoritarian and illiberal with each passing day, and many Muslims in Europe are arguably even more extreme and intolerant than the Malay Muslims in my own country. Britain is becoming more and more like my own country in other words. That kind of defeats the whole point of moving there in the first place.

Besides these reasons, I will say no more.

[Kaumudeen]

Why are you two so desperate to be European? They will never accept us no matter how much we westernize.

I mean, personally I have not a problem with ppl keeping their culture, including ofc religious beliefs, as long as:
1. Such beliefs are respectful of other beliefs.
2. Such beliefs respect the law and constitutional principle of the country.
3. Such beliefs are not anti-democratic and/or widely discriminatory against minorities, women etc. (example: I am perfectly fine with a Christian/Muslim saying that Gay couples are not families according to their personal belief, but i dont respect the opinion of someone who wants to put them to death). Same goes for someone, fo example, that advocates for removing the women rights to vote, as it would be anticonstitutional.

Personally, I'd say that most immigrants (many of which are muslims) in my country are respectful of those 3 factors and i'm ok with them. While the minority that disregard the country laws should be deported back to their country of origin, full stop.

I was mainly discussing Muslims in Muslim countries wanting to adopt Western values in a desperate attempt to be "European." But I agree with your points.