Yeah I agree, secular conservatism is absolutely possible, just more uncommon
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by Bilancorn » Wed Oct 23, 2024 3:18 am
by Bilancorn » Wed Oct 23, 2024 3:30 am
Kaumudeen wrote:Why are you two so desperate to be European? They will never accept us no matter how much we westernize.
by Neu California » Wed Oct 23, 2024 5:31 am
Liberal Malaysia wrote:Neu California wrote:
Donald Trump a pragmatist?
It sounds less like your problem is with Muslims and more with the far right in general.
(BTW, I live in a city that had a Muslim terrorist attack, San Bernardino, and you know what? There was no real move towards islamic extremism or against it. It was a tragedy, but things stayed the same for the most part)
Anmd your inability to actually define these terms in any meaningful way is your problem, not mine.
Considering you seem to treat all muslims as extremists, I'm putting little faith in your words.
Not even a link?
Israel is not going to be destroyed under a Harris Presidency, and I sincerely doubt that things are going to get as bad as you claim. Your hyperbole is annoying at best.
Rob Henderson on luxury beliefs
Luxury beliefs: "Ideas and opinions that confer status on the upper class at very little cost, while often inflicting costs on the lower classes"
One example cited by Henderson is "defund the police".
"From the River to the Sea" would be another imo. "Islam is a religion of peace" is yet another luxury belief typically held by rich, white liberal Westerners, North Americans and Australasians in particular, who have never experienced the short end of the Islamic stick in their entire lives. America is insulated from the Muslim world by two oceans. There is only one town in the entire country that has a Muslim majority: Hamtramck, MI. That is privilege.
The concept of "luxury beliefs" has gained increasing attention in recent months. It captures the idea that, as status goods become more affordable, ideology has emerged as a new way to signal status. I use a signaling game to derive a prediction related to the concept: given some beliefs are associated with high status, lower status individuals seek to pool with high status individuals by stating these beliefs if the social image gain is sufficiently high. I test this prediction using two online experiments and a series of statements commonly recognised as "luxury beliefs". I find that i) luxury beliefs are not strongly associated with status: they are only perceived to signal college attendance and negatively correlate with income and perceived income; and ii) there is no evidence of signaling using these beliefs in a (close to anonymous) online setting
[/quote]The opposition Perikatan Nasional electoral gains were made from increased Malay support. The popular vote for PN reached 49 percent of the total vote in the six state polls, almost on par with the vote of the unity government. PN increased their seats, gaining 61 seats out of 245, especially in Malay majority areas.
The preliminary analysis confirms that the opposition coalition won over the overwhelming majority of Malays voting, an estimated gain of 19 percent, to reach an average in all six elections of an estimated 73 percent of the Malay vote.
[...]
For Pakatan Harapan and Umno, the share of the Malay vote decreased to an overall figure of an estimated 26 percent in the six elections, a figure in line with the Malay vote received for Harapan in 2018.
Not all Muslims are extremists, but if voting habits are any indication, nearly 3/4 of all Malaysian Muslims are far-right extremists or otherwise fash-adjacent, similar to the percentage of Palestinians who support Hamas. If it weren't for the 40% of non-Muslims voting for more "moderate" parties, we would've succumbed to full-blown sharia and Islamofascist theocracy by now. We'd be no different than Iran.
Non-Muslims are the ones who are preventing this country from going bottom-up altogether. We Chinese infidels literally built this economy from the ground up only for our racist government to steal from us by implementing "affirmative action". Our only crime is to be more successful than the average Malay or Muslim. My grandparents immigrated to Malaysia with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. Now look at us. We're like the Jews of Southeast Asia. Another reason I stand with Israel.
by Western European Khilafat » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:05 am
Liberal Malaysia wrote:The rise of Islam has contributed to the persecution, enslavement and genocide of non-Muslim infidels beginning in the 7th century. As a non-Muslim, I have a huge problem with that. There is no room for true equality or coexistence in Islam. You either submit or you die.
I WILL NOT SUBMIT. I will NEVER accept dhimmitude or annihilation.
There is no superiority for an Arab over a non-Arab, nor a non-Arab over an Arab, nor a white over black, nor a black over white, except in Taqwa (fear of Allah). People are from Adam, and Adam is from dirt.
by Green Lodge » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:22 am
by Cerespasia » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:26 am
CERES IS BACK!
And I want some more..!
NSStats executed via full auto magdump from M55B Battle Rifle.
by Western European Khilafat » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:31 am
Green Lodge wrote:I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.
by Kaumudeen » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:52 am
Green Lodge wrote:I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.
Cerespasia wrote:Since my school's religion subject (the Islam-centered half) has now moved on to a new chapter, which is Sharia-friendly economics, as well as in some small parts, maybe, the whole boycott on western products, I believe that the same thing happening in Turkey is also happening here in Indonesia, a bit more toned down, though I can't be certain.
by Green Lodge » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:52 am
Western European Khilafat wrote:Green Lodge wrote:I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.
Turn it above 10%?
Ethiopia? Ghana? India? Russia? Uganda? Madagascar?
by Green Lodge » Wed Oct 23, 2024 6:56 am
Kaumudeen wrote:Green Lodge wrote:I have nothing against moderate Muslims. Or rather, I'm not of the same religion as them, but I could easily have Muslim friends (assuming they accepted me). The only problem is that it seems that as soon as Muslims exceed 10% of the population of a community, they tend to turn the place into a Muslim republic with incredible ease. This is generally incompatible with a liberal democracy. I think we'll see a lot of this in Europe in 50 to 60 years' time.
Europe's fault for embracing the French Revolution.
by Hammer Britannia » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:14 am
by Technoscience Leftwing » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:50 am
by Futurist State of Flassau » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:51 am
Technoscience Leftwing wrote:* Any religion that achieved triumph in the Middle Ages is a cultural matrix of the medieval order - despotism, exploitation and scientific and technical backwardness. Adherents of such orders, ultra-right feudal reactionaries, are grouped around religions. Religion is not a "cultural feature", it is a reactionary ideology around which reactionary political groups arise. Such groups harm progress. The advanced philosophy is dialectical materialism, secularism, anti-clericalism. "Materialism must be militant", as V.I. Lenin rightly noted.
by The Galactic Empire of Zimbabwae2 » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:55 am
Liberal Malaysia wrote:Neu California wrote:
Do you have a problem with the rise of Christianity, which has also contributed to the persecution, enslavement and genocide of non-Christians beginning in the first or second century?
Considering how well Muslims have integrated in the US, and the fact that the far-right (almost always Christians, never Muslims) are far more dangerous than them here in the states, I think you're wrong.
Fortunately those are not the two options in ragards to Islam in general, just the extremist variants.
I do have a problem with the rise of Christianity historically for exactly the same reasons. But most Christians have moved on since then. Christians have never attempted to force their religion onto me through legislation and threats of mob violence. Only Muslims have done that.
I don't live in the States. I'm talking about the whole world. I'm talking about the Muslim world in particular where I live. Your "lived experience" as a privileged American liberal who can afford to disregard Islamic extremism as something totally distant (an example of a woke luxury belief typically held by members of a neoliberal ruling elite and their scions) does not concord with the lived experiences of non-Muslims in the Muslim world who have to deal with this shit constantly on a daily basis. In my country, the far-right are overwhelmingly Muslims, and Muslim extremists pose the greatest existential threat to minorities like us. White supremacy and Christian nationalism are virtually nonexistent here. Non-Muslims in my country are either unable or unwilling to fight for their rights and fail to appreciate the sheer necessity of resistance like the Israelis do.
You are free to openly challenge Christianity or demonstrate every single weekend in support of Hamas and Hezbollah in your country in such a way that I'm not free to openly challenge Islam or express any support Israel whatsoever in my country under pain of arrest or mob intimidation. That is your privilege as a citizen of the freest country in the world. You have the First Amendment, a sympathetic legacy media establishment and an entire apparatus of elite institutions to back you up. We have nothing. Hell, even the Europeans are much worse off than you are in this respect.
Convert, leave or die will be the only options left if Islamic law is ever implemented where you live. If the extremists have their way in my country, these will be our only options.
In any case, we're still waiting for the OP to finish OPing so the discussion is a little open-ended until then.
by Technoscience Leftwing » Wed Oct 23, 2024 7:59 am
Futurist State of Flassau wrote:Technoscience Leftwing wrote:* Any religion that achieved triumph in the Middle Ages is a cultural matrix of the medieval order - despotism, exploitation and scientific and technical backwardness. Adherents of such orders, ultra-right feudal reactionaries, are grouped around religions. Religion is not a "cultural feature", it is a reactionary ideology around which reactionary political groups arise. Such groups harm progress. The advanced philosophy is dialectical materialism, secularism, anti-clericalism. "Materialism must be militant", as V.I. Lenin rightly noted.
To Quote an Antireligionist on Religion...
by Futurist State of Flassau » Wed Oct 23, 2024 8:03 am
Technoscience Leftwing wrote:Futurist State of Flassau wrote:To Quote an Antireligionist on Religion...
That's exactly it. For our generation, born in the USSR before perestroika, at first it was an unverified school slogan - but after the USSR began to disintegrate under the mantras of "religious renaissance" and "revival of national self-awareness", all the harm of religion and nationalism was felt on our own skin. And the theses that religion slows down progress and serves the owners and rulers, laying claim to totalitarian domination - these theses received experimental confirmation.
by Niolia » Wed Oct 23, 2024 8:21 am
by Futurist State of Flassau » Wed Oct 23, 2024 8:22 am
Niolia wrote:Could it be possible for a movement within the Middle East similar to Christian Democracy in Europe, but with Islam?
by Liberal Malaysia » Wed Oct 23, 2024 8:57 am
Neu California wrote:Liberal Malaysia wrote:
Rob Henderson on luxury beliefs
Luxury beliefs: "Ideas and opinions that confer status on the upper class at very little cost, while often inflicting costs on the lower classes"
Sounds like most right wing beliefs to me.One example cited by Henderson is "defund the police".
Which shows a damn shallow understanding of the phrase. It's about redistributing large chunks of the funds that the police get into things like mental health, which is a good thing. Trigger happy cops should not be responding to mental health crises."From the River to the Sea" would be another imo. "Islam is a religion of peace" is yet another luxury belief typically held by rich, white liberal Westerners, North Americans and Australasians in particular, who have never experienced the short end of the Islamic stick in their entire lives. America is insulated from the Muslim world by two oceans. There is only one town in the entire country that has a Muslim majority: Hamtramck, MI. That is privilege.
When you define them by their worst and only their worst, maybe. As I see it, you're just islamophobic as fuck, and can't see the idea that moderate islam is perfectly viable, never mind secular statees with muslim majorities, like:
Albania[79]
Azerbaijan[80]
Bosnia-Herzegovina[81]
Burkina Faso[82]
Chad[83]
Gambia[84][85]
Guinea[86]
Indonesia[87][note 2]
Kazakhstan[89]
Kosovo[90]
Kyrgyzstan[91]
Mali[92]
Niger[93]
Nigeria[94][note 3]
Senegal[95]
Sierra Leone[96]
Sudan[97]
Tajikistan[98]
Turkey[99]
Turkmenistan[100]
Uzbekistan[101]
(Stolen from Wikipedia). Show me that these states have descended into what you claim Muslim majority states always will.
“Luxury beliefs": Signaling through ideology?The concept of "luxury beliefs" has gained increasing attention in recent months. It captures the idea that, as status goods become more affordable, ideology has emerged as a new way to signal status. I use a signaling game to derive a prediction related to the concept: given some beliefs are associated with high status, lower status individuals seek to pool with high status individuals by stating these beliefs if the social image gain is sufficiently high. I test this prediction using two online experiments and a series of statements commonly recognised as "luxury beliefs". I find that i) luxury beliefs are not strongly associated with status: they are only perceived to signal college attendance and negatively correlate with income and perceived income; and ii) there is no evidence of signaling using these beliefs in a (close to anonymous) online setting
Good Marriages Are Good. Bad Marriages Are, Well, Bad.
Don't get your talking points from crackpots.
[...]
For Pakatan Harapan and Umno, the share of the Malay vote decreased to an overall figure of an estimated 26 percent in the six elections, a figure in line with the Malay vote received for Harapan in 2018.
According to Wikipedia, they are nowhere near control of the nation, holding 68 of 222 seats in the lower house (20%) and 7 out m70 in the upper (10%) and left out of power in both. And that's after increasing their vote share by 6 points. They're hardly a threat at the moment by my reckoning.Not all Muslims are extremists, but if voting habits are any indication, nearly 3/4 of all Malaysian Muslims are far-right extremists or otherwise fash-adjacent, similar to the percentage of Palestinians who support Hamas. If it weren't for the 40% of non-Muslims voting for more "moderate" parties, we would've succumbed to full-blown sharia and Islamofascist theocracy by now. We'd be no different than Iran.
Of the three parties in that party coalition, that actually hold seats, one is right wing, one is far-right, and one is centrist, which I would overall call a right-wing coalition, not a far right one. They're not as far-right as you're claiming, regardless.Non-Muslims are the ones who are preventing this country from going bottom-up altogether. We Chinese infidels literally built this economy from the ground up only for our racist government to steal from us by implementing "affirmative action". Our only crime is to be more successful than the average Malay or Muslim. My grandparents immigrated to Malaysia with nothing more than the clothes on their backs. Now look at us. We're like the Jews of Southeast Asia. Another reason I stand with Israel.
Quite the persecution complex you have there.
by Western European Khilafat » Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:10 am
Liberal Malaysia wrote:The link in my sig How non-Muslim infidels are ACTUALLY treated under Islam [/spoiler]
by Western European Khilafat » Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:13 am
Despite the Koran's prohibition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in Yemen (1165 and 1678), Morocco (1275, 1465 and 1790-92) and Baghdad (1333 and 1344).
by Southglory » Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:18 am
Liberal Malaysia wrote:The rise of Islam has contributed to the persecution, enslavement and genocide of non-Muslim infidels beginning in the 7th century. As a non-Muslim, I have a huge problem with that. There is no room for true equality or coexistence in Islam. You either submit or you die.
I WILL NOT SUBMIT. I will NEVER accept dhimmitude or annihilation.
by Liberal Malaysia » Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:21 am
The Galactic Empire of Zimbabwae2 wrote:Liberal Malaysia wrote:
I do have a problem with the rise of Christianity historically for exactly the same reasons. But most Christians have moved on since then. Christians have never attempted to force their religion onto me through legislation and threats of mob violence. Only Muslims have done that.
I don't live in the States. I'm talking about the whole world. I'm talking about the Muslim world in particular where I live. Your "lived experience" as a privileged American liberal who can afford to disregard Islamic extremism as something totally distant (an example of a woke luxury belief typically held by members of a neoliberal ruling elite and their scions) does not concord with the lived experiences of non-Muslims in the Muslim world who have to deal with this shit constantly on a daily basis. In my country, the far-right are overwhelmingly Muslims, and Muslim extremists pose the greatest existential threat to minorities like us. White supremacy and Christian nationalism are virtually nonexistent here. Non-Muslims in my country are either unable or unwilling to fight for their rights and fail to appreciate the sheer necessity of resistance like the Israelis do.
You are free to openly challenge Christianity or demonstrate every single weekend in support of Hamas and Hezbollah in your country in such a way that I'm not free to openly challenge Islam or express any support Israel whatsoever in my country under pain of arrest or mob intimidation. That is your privilege as a citizen of the freest country in the world. You have the First Amendment, a sympathetic legacy media establishment and an entire apparatus of elite institutions to back you up. We have nothing. Hell, even the Europeans are much worse off than you are in this respect.
Convert, leave or die will be the only options left if Islamic law is ever implemented where you live. If the extremists have their way in my country, these will be our only options.
In any case, we're still waiting for the OP to finish OPing so the discussion is a little open-ended until then.
I've read through your thoughts here on your posts. I'm just trying to understand:
Would you come to the United States given the opportunity (free to come, free citizenship)?
Do you want to come to the US?
If not, could you please explain why?
Your issues seem to be pretty deep rooted in the culture of your area. There are other pretty "Western" socieities which you could also potentially move to. I'm just trying to understand the logic of living somewhere, where you objectively feel your rights are suppressed, if you do indeed have the option of moving abroad
by Kaumudeen » Wed Oct 23, 2024 9:27 am
Bilancorn wrote:Kaumudeen wrote:Why are you two so desperate to be European? They will never accept us no matter how much we westernize.
I mean, personally I have not a problem with ppl keeping their culture, including ofc religious beliefs, as long as:
1. Such beliefs are respectful of other beliefs.
2. Such beliefs respect the law and constitutional principle of the country.
3. Such beliefs are not anti-democratic and/or widely discriminatory against minorities, women etc. (example: I am perfectly fine with a Christian/Muslim saying that Gay couples are not families according to their personal belief, but i dont respect the opinion of someone who wants to put them to death). Same goes for someone, fo example, that advocates for removing the women rights to vote, as it would be anticonstitutional.
Personally, I'd say that most immigrants (many of which are muslims) in my country are respectful of those 3 factors and i'm ok with them. While the minority that disregard the country laws should be deported back to their country of origin, full stop.
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