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2023-24 Israel-Hamas-Hezbollah-Iran-Houthi Conflict

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Fahran
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Fahran » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:18 am

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:“An Israel Defense Forces spokesperson declined to comment to NPR on casualties or damage resulting from the strike.”
Looks like we’re not going to get much trustworthy information anytime soon. Though I agree it is unlikely Iran destroyed F-35s.

According to reports in the Israeli media, the military acknowledged that the strike had damaged “several” airbases. However it said that no aircraft had been destroyed. Israeli media reported that the attacks had mainly damaged maintenance areas and office buildings.


The Israelis were more accurate in their damage assessments the last time around than the IRGC or their propaganda channels - which claimed aircraft had been destroyed or bases had been destroyed. I suspect that the reports made by Israeli media are probably accurate.
Last edited by Fahran on Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:19 am, edited 1 time in total.
This nation is basically my excuse to write about melancholic girls composing pretentious poetry and riding horses through hills and deserts.

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Fame And Even More Fame
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Postby Fame And Even More Fame » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:29 am

Fahran wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:“After more than 50 years, the state of Israel has never established legal, binding borders.”
The current UN proposals are the best I’ve seen. The ones in 1948 were definitely not.

You cannot establish legal, binding borders if the people contesting said legal, binding borders refuse to accept them. The current UN proposal is worse for Palestinians than the 1948 proposal was. Why do you imagine that is?

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:How is mobilisation an act of war, especially when even the USA confirmed they had no intents of invasion? Even then I can get behind a preemptive strike, but how do you defend keeping land and building colonies even after it surfaced that Egypt had no intentions to invade? That sounds like a war of conquest to me, and not “self defence” or whatever you want to frame it as.

Permitting militias to persistently raid your neighbors is an act of war.

Closing down vital channels of maritime commerce is an act of war.

Expelling UNEF or other peacekeeping forces mandated by previous treaties is an act of war.

Mass mobilization along three borders of an adversarial nation-state certainly would strike most as giving the appearance of imminent invasion - which is how Israel took it.

Engaging in political brinkmanship, involving multiple acts of war against another country, while giving the appearance that you're about to invade said country can lead to escalation. Who knew?

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:I don’t think “they stole land too” is a very good argument either. Besides, the Israelis have and still systematically steal land from individual Palestinians. The fact that the Arab states invaded Israel in 1948 doesn’t magically excuse that.

Individual and state ownership of land are distinct points of discussion, but I'm not certain we can describe changes in the territory controlled by state or political actors that occurred as a result of continual rejections of earlier allocations of territory "stealing."

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:“Divided” is a nice way to put it. The Zionists rejected the Peel plan saying it didn’t give them enough (even though it gave them the majority of the Palestinian economy and the Galilee which was Arab).

The Jews had contributed a sizable amount to the Palestinian economy, especially in coastal regions, where they often constituted a majority.

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:“At the same Zionist Congress, David Ben-Gurion, then chairman of the executive committee of the Jewish Agency for Palestine, told those in attendance that, though "there could be no question...of giving up any part of the Land of Israel,... it was arguable that the ultimate goal would be achieved most quickly by accepting the Peel proposals."[39] University of Arizona professor Charles D. Smith suggests that, "Weizmann and Ben-Gurion did not feel they had to be bound by the borders proposed [by the Peel Commission]. These could be considered temporary boundaries to be expanded in the future." Ben-Gurion saw the plan as only a stage in the realisation of a larger Jewish state.”
Please stop pretending that the Zionists were nice and cool but the Arabs were evil and unreasonable.

It's not that the Zionists were nice and cool or that the Arab nationalists were evil and unreasonable. It's that one group was a lot more flexible when it came to diplomacy than the other group. This goes back to Husseini being a fail-son genocidaire who couldn't read a room or even attempt to appear reasonable half the time. If Nashashabi's faction had been in charge, things might have been different.

Because much of the land where Palestinians were the majority has now been ethnically cleansed.


Permitting militias to raid neighbours and closing down vital maritime routes sounds a lot like what Israel is doing.
Besides, as I said I can get behind a preemptive strike, but how does that justify colonisation and land theft?


The “earlier allocations of territory” were deeply unfair and honestly the most naive thing I have ever seen. And I still don’t get how the land theft during the Nakba and the current land theft in the West Bank can be excused away by saying “they rejected a deeply flawed partition deal 75 years ago”?


Ok so?


It’s a lot easier to be slightly more flexible than an iron rod when all the deals being proposed are wildly in your favour.
Look who has a flag and sig now, Frisemark

You think you’re so smart, yet you still post in F7 on NS so please deflate your head

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Fame And Even More Fame
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Postby Fame And Even More Fame » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:30 am

I don’t know if someone said this already but apparently eight Israelis were killed in an ambush in Lebanon, including their commander.
Look who has a flag and sig now, Frisemark

You think you’re so smart, yet you still post in F7 on NS so please deflate your head

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Daemonkin of Corn
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Corrupt Dictatorship

Postby Daemonkin of Corn » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:32 am

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:I don’t know if someone said this already but apparently eight Israelis were killed in an ambush in Lebanon, including their commander.



That's what happens when you invade another country sometimes.

That said... Hey ya'll...

Remember when Hamas would position military assets near civilian populated areas and then we were told Hamas was using Human shields?

I'm seeing on the news that Mossad's headquarters in a heavily populated area too. Does that mean that Israel is also using human shields to protect from Iranian strikes?
*Capabilities in our factbook are relative to present day standards. In relation to the nation that might be reading this, just scale according to your time period, scale, or setting.*
*The following was carved into the bloody back of a headless corpse at the center of a massive corn maze*
Blood flows, like sap from the stalks, and Corn watches from the fields of blood and battle. I stand in the golden sea, my hands stained with blood. Corn cares not from whence the blood flows, only that it mingles with the soil, that it feeds the roots of the endless harvest.
Skulls for the husks, blood for the kernels! The fields will grow tall, and Corn’s name will be sung forever.
WAR FOREVER!! THE HARVEST IS ENDLESS! BLOOD FOR THE HARVEST! SKULLS FOR THE SKULL THRONE!

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SusScorfa
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Postby SusScorfa » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:38 am

Daemonkin of Corn wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:I don’t know if someone said this already but apparently eight Israelis were killed in an ambush in Lebanon, including their commander.



That's what happens when you invade another country sometimes.

That said... Hey ya'll...

Remember when Hamas would position military assets near civilian populated areas and then we were told Hamas was using Human shields?

I'm seeing on the news that Mossad's headquarters in a heavily populated area too. Does that mean that Israel is also using human shields to protect from Iranian strikes?


I think we can all agree that, when it comes to any of the actors in this war, humans tend not to be very good shields.

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La Xinga
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Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:42 am

Daemonkin of Corn wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:I don’t know if someone said this already but apparently eight Israelis were killed in an ambush in Lebanon, including their commander.



That's what happens when you invade another country sometimes.

That said... Hey ya'll...

Remember when Hamas would position military assets near civilian populated areas and then we were told Hamas was using Human shields?

I'm seeing on the news that Mossad's headquarters in a heavily populated area too. Does that mean that Israel is also using human shields to protect from Iranian strikes?

"The White House is in middle of a city. Human Shields?!?!?!"
The difference is that Hamas is a terrorist organization which knows what is bound to happen when they put their assets in middle of a zillion people.

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Fame And Even More Fame
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Postby Fame And Even More Fame » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:51 am

La Xinga wrote:
Daemonkin of Corn wrote:

That's what happens when you invade another country sometimes.

That said... Hey ya'll...

Remember when Hamas would position military assets near civilian populated areas and then we were told Hamas was using Human shields?

I'm seeing on the news that Mossad's headquarters in a heavily populated area too. Does that mean that Israel is also using human shields to protect from Iranian strikes?

"The White House is in middle of a city. Human Shields?!?!?!"
The difference is that Hamas is a terrorist organization which knows what is bound to happen when they put their assets in middle of a zillion people.

Mossad headquarters, IDF headquarters and at least one military base in Tel Aviv. Not comparable to the White House.

I have a question. Not supporting Hamas or anything, but where do you expect Hamas to put their military assets?
Look who has a flag and sig now, Frisemark

You think you’re so smart, yet you still post in F7 on NS so please deflate your head

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Deblar
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Postby Deblar » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:53 am

La Xinga wrote:
Daemonkin of Corn wrote:

That's what happens when you invade another country sometimes.

That said... Hey ya'll...

Remember when Hamas would position military assets near civilian populated areas and then we were told Hamas was using Human shields?

I'm seeing on the news that Mossad's headquarters in a heavily populated area too. Does that mean that Israel is also using human shields to protect from Iranian strikes?

"The White House is in middle of a city. Human Shields?!?!?!"
The difference is that Hamas is a terrorist organization which knows what is bound to happen when they put their assets in middle of a zillion people.

and Israel wouldn't? i feel like they're smarter than that.

of course, Israel has the advantage of possessing one of the most effective missile defense systems in the world, so i suppose it's something they assume they don't have to worry about, but still

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La Xinga
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Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:53 am

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:
La Xinga wrote:"The White House is in middle of a city. Human Shields?!?!?!"
The difference is that Hamas is a terrorist organization which knows what is bound to happen when they put their assets in middle of a zillion people.

Mossad headquarters, IDF headquarters and at least one military base in Tel Aviv. Not comparable to the White House.

Alright, the Pentagon, better? In the middle of an urban area!
I have a question. Not supporting Hamas or anything, but where do you expect Hamas to put their military assets?

In the realm of nonexistence.
Deblar wrote:
La Xinga wrote:"The White House is in middle of a city. Human Shields?!?!?!"
The difference is that Hamas is a terrorist organization which knows what is bound to happen when they put their assets in middle of a zillion people.

and Israel wouldn't? i feel like they're smarter than that.

of course, Israel has the advantage of possessing one of the most effective missile defense systems in the world, so i suppose it's something they assume they don't have to worry about, but still

Well yes, Israel does not have an assumption that wherever they put their stuff will be attacked, the same way the US doesn't. Hamas definitely knows what is bound to happen based on the principle of FAFO.
and the guy below me should see this post too
Last edited by La Xinga on Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:57 am, edited 2 times in total.

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Oct 02, 2024 11:56 am

La Xinga wrote:
Daemonkin of Corn wrote:

That's what happens when you invade another country sometimes.

That said... Hey ya'll...

Remember when Hamas would position military assets near civilian populated areas and then we were told Hamas was using Human shields?

I'm seeing on the news that Mossad's headquarters in a heavily populated area too. Does that mean that Israel is also using human shields to protect from Iranian strikes?

"The White House is in middle of a city. Human Shields?!?!?!"
The difference is that Hamas is a terrorist organization which knows what is bound to happen when they put their assets in middle of a zillion people.

Israel also surely knows what's bound to happen if they put military assets in the middle of a zillion people.
He/Him
Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and oppress us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organise and fight?
For the union makes us strong.

Saoirse don Phalaistín

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Fame And Even More Fame
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Postby Fame And Even More Fame » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:02 pm

La Xinga wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:Mossad headquarters, IDF headquarters and at least one military base in Tel Aviv. Not comparable to the White House.

Alright, the Pentagon, better? In the middle of an urban area!
I have a question. Not supporting Hamas or anything, but where do you expect Hamas to put their military assets?

In the realm of nonexistence.
Deblar wrote:and Israel wouldn't? i feel like they're smarter than that.

of course, Israel has the advantage of possessing one of the most effective missile defense systems in the world, so i suppose it's something they assume they don't have to worry about, but still

Well yes, Israel does not have an assumption that wherever they put their stuff will be attacked, the same way the US doesn't. Hamas definitely knows what is bound to happen based on the principle of FAFO.
and the guy below me should see this post too

Wait a minute! Are you saying that the existence of military assets in an urban area doesn’t make the entire city a legitimate target for bombardment? Wouldn’t that make you pro-Hamas?


You haven’t answered my question. Hamas has military assets, and your side says they shouldn’t be in densely populated areas. Where should they be?
Look who has a flag and sig now, Frisemark

You think you’re so smart, yet you still post in F7 on NS so please deflate your head

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La Xinga
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Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:04 pm

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:
La Xinga wrote:Alright, the Pentagon, better? In the middle of an urban area!

In the realm of nonexistence.

Well yes, Israel does not have an assumption that wherever they put their stuff will be attacked, the same way the US doesn't. Hamas definitely knows what is bound to happen based on the principle of FAFO.
and the guy below me should see this post too

Wait a minute! Are you saying that the existence of military assets in an urban area doesn’t make the entire city a legitimate target for bombardment? Wouldn’t that make you pro-Hamas?

Do you read the post you're replying to at all? I'm surprised you haven't informed me that Denver isn't in Italy yet.
You haven’t answered my question. Hamas has military assets, and your side says they shouldn’t be in densely populated areas. Where should they be?

I certainly have answered your question.

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Big Eyed Animation
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Postby Big Eyed Animation » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:08 pm

The White House is a KNOWN target.

Mossad HQ is a KNOWN target.

I mean if Hamas and Hezbollah would just advertise or tell the world where their command and control centers were and keep them above ground, we would have something similar.

But of course that would be utterly stupid for Hamas and Hezbollah to do. The way these groups operate is out of necessity but it also puts a lot of innocent civilians in harms way

Also unlike Hamas and Hezbollah, dead Israelis isn't considered a win or an objective of the Israeli government. As some folks have already brought up here, every dead Palestinian or Lebanese is a "martyr" for the cause.

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Big Eyed Animation
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Postby Big Eyed Animation » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:10 pm

The White House is a KNOWN target.

Mossad HQ is a KNOWN target.

I mean if Hamas and Hezbollah would just advertise or tell the world where their command and control centers were and keep them above ground, we would have something similar.

But of course that would be utterly stupid for Hamas and Hezbollah to do. The way these groups operate is out of necessity but it also puts a lot of innocent civilians in harms way

Also unlike Hamas and Hezbollah, dead Israelis isn't considered a win or an objective of the Israeli government. Officials have already resigned and Bibi is on his last legs. I would not consider Oct 7 a win the for Israeli government. As some folks have already brought up here, every dead Palestinian or Lebanese is a "martyr" for the cause.

Making martyrs is part and parcel to Hamas and Hezbollah playbook.
Last edited by Big Eyed Animation on Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:13 pm, edited 3 times in total.

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Fame And Even More Fame
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Postby Fame And Even More Fame » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:12 pm

La Xinga wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:Wait a minute! Are you saying that the existence of military assets in an urban area doesn’t make the entire city a legitimate target for bombardment? Wouldn’t that make you pro-Hamas?

Do you read the post you're replying to at all? I'm surprised you haven't informed me that Denver isn't in Italy yet.
You haven’t answered my question. Hamas has military assets, and your side says they shouldn’t be in densely populated areas. Where should they be?

I certainly have answered your question.

What’s wrong in my post? Are you saying that you think military assets in a city make the entire city a target, or something else?


“Into nonexistence” isn’t an answer and you know it. Israel’s accusations of human shields are based from the fact that Hamas has military assets in densely populated areas. Where would you want Hamas to put them?
Look who has a flag and sig now, Frisemark

You think you’re so smart, yet you still post in F7 on NS so please deflate your head

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La Xinga
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Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:15 pm

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:
La Xinga wrote:Do you read the post you're replying to at all? I'm surprised you haven't informed me that Denver isn't in Italy yet.

I certainly have answered your question.

What’s wrong in my post? Are you saying that you think military assets in a city make the entire city a target, or something else?

Putting your office of a sort in an urban area does not equate to "I am putting this asset here with the full knowledge that Israel will blow it up and civilians will also be killed as a result".
“Into nonexistence” isn’t an answer and you know it.

Goodness, you can see my thoughts now? Quite freaky tbh

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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:15 pm

La Xinga wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:Mossad headquarters, IDF headquarters and at least one military base in Tel Aviv. Not comparable to the White House.

Alright, the Pentagon, better? In the middle of an urban area!
I have a question. Not supporting Hamas or anything, but where do you expect Hamas to put their military assets?

In the realm of nonexistence.
Deblar wrote:and Israel wouldn't? i feel like they're smarter than that.

of course, Israel has the advantage of possessing one of the most effective missile defense systems in the world, so i suppose it's something they assume they don't have to worry about, but still

Well yes, Israel does not have an assumption that wherever they put their stuff will be attacked, the same way the US doesn't. Hamas definitely knows what is bound to happen based on the principle of FAFO.
and the guy below me should see this post too

Israel definitely knows that they are going to get attacked. They don't have the Iron Dome for keeping bird shit off their cars.
He/Him
Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and oppress us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organise and fight?
For the union makes us strong.

Saoirse don Phalaistín

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La Xinga
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Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:17 pm

Ifreann wrote:
La Xinga wrote:Alright, the Pentagon, better? In the middle of an urban area!

In the realm of nonexistence.

Well yes, Israel does not have an assumption that wherever they put their stuff will be attacked, the same way the US doesn't. Hamas definitely knows what is bound to happen based on the principle of FAFO.
and the guy below me should see this post too

Israel definitely knows that they are going to get attacked. They don't have the Iron Dome for keeping bird shit off their cars.

I'm sure Israel knows an attack will occur to them at some point. This isn't something which is inevitable or nearly inevitable to occur to their headquarters or whatever stuff they have there.

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Fame And Even More Fame
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Postby Fame And Even More Fame » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:23 pm

La Xinga wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:What’s wrong in my post? Are you saying that you think military assets in a city make the entire city a target, or something else?

Putting your office of a sort in an urban area does not equate to "I am putting this asset here with the full knowledge that Israel will blow it up and civilians will also be killed as a result".
“Into nonexistence” isn’t an answer and you know it.

Goodness, you can see my thoughts now? Quite freaky tbh

A military base, man.
Where should Hamas put their assets then?

Avoiding the question again.
Look who has a flag and sig now, Frisemark

You think you’re so smart, yet you still post in F7 on NS so please deflate your head

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La Xinga
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Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:25 pm

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:
La Xinga wrote:Putting your office of a sort in an urban area does not equate to "I am putting this asset here with the full knowledge that Israel will blow it up and civilians will also be killed as a result".

Goodness, you can see my thoughts now? Quite freaky tbh

A military base, man.
Where should Hamas put their assets then?
Avoiding the question again.

I gave you my answer, you don't like it; what do you want me to tell you?

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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:26 pm

La Xinga wrote:
Ifreann wrote:Israel definitely knows that they are going to get attacked. They don't have the Iron Dome for keeping bird shit off their cars.

I'm sure Israel knows an attack will occur to them at some point. This isn't something which is inevitable or nearly inevitable to occur to their headquarters or whatever stuff they have there.

When they know an attack will occur, then it is inevitable.
He/Him
Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and oppress us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organise and fight?
For the union makes us strong.

Saoirse don Phalaistín

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La Xinga
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Posts: 6152
Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:27 pm

Ifreann wrote:
La Xinga wrote:I'm sure Israel knows an attack will occur to them at some point. This isn't something which is inevitable or nearly inevitable to occur to their headquarters or whatever stuff they have there.

When they know an attack will occur, then it is inevitable.

If the Era of the Prophets return, perhaps you will have a point.

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Fame And Even More Fame
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Postby Fame And Even More Fame » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:27 pm

La Xinga wrote:
Fame And Even More Fame wrote:A military base, man.
Where should Hamas put their assets then?
Avoiding the question again.

I gave you my answer, you don't like it; what do you want me to tell you?

You said that Hamas puts their assets specifically so that Israel kills civilians whilst bombing them. Where could Hamas put their assets where it would be impossible to kill civilians if struck?
Look who has a flag and sig now, Frisemark

You think you’re so smart, yet you still post in F7 on NS so please deflate your head

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La Xinga
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Founded: Jul 12, 2019
Father Knows Best State

Postby La Xinga » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:29 pm

Fame And Even More Fame wrote:
La Xinga wrote:I gave you my answer, you don't like it; what do you want me to tell you?

You said that Hamas puts their assets specifically so that Israel kills civilians whilst bombing them. Where could Hamas put their assets where it would be impossible to kill civilians if struck?

I told you where to put them, and that was not what I said, but I'm not going to go in circles with you like the last time you gave me this type of stuff.

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Ifreann
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Founded: Aug 07, 2005
Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Wed Oct 02, 2024 12:32 pm

La Xinga wrote:
Ifreann wrote:When they know an attack will occur, then it is inevitable.

If the Era of the Prophets return, perhaps you will have a point.

So then you don't really have any good reason to differentiate between Hamas having military assets among the civilian population and Israel doing likewise. The former counts as using human shields and the latter doesn't because...just because.
He/Him
Is there aught we hold in common with the greedy parasite,
Who would lash us into serfdom and oppress us with his might?
Is there anything left to us but to organise and fight?
For the union makes us strong.

Saoirse don Phalaistín

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