2023-24 Israel-Hamas-Hezbollah-Iran-Houthi Conflict

[Fahran]

The UN is completely and utterly useless

Lebanon: So will you help us disarm Hezbollah to uphold the multiple resolutions y'all passed mandating the disarmament of sectarian militias?

UN: No. lol

Lebanon: Will you stop Israel from bombing us? It's kind of y'all's fault Iran, Hezbollah, and Israel pulled us into a regional conflict in the first place.

UN: Also, no. Evacuate. lol

[The Lone Alliance]

Lebanese army withdraws from several positions on southern border

They were apparently asked by UNIFIL to do so.

UN mission explicitly created for the sole purpose of maintaining peace in Lebanon asks the Lebanese army to withdraw from their own territory so Israel can carpet bomb it, what?

Israel's going to carpet bomb Southern Lebanon anyway, UN decided it's better to just let Hezbollah die and not get the Lebanese army killed too.

[Areebistan]

UN mission explicitly created for the sole purpose of maintaining peace in Lebanon asks the Lebanese army to withdraw from their own territory so Israel can carpet bomb it, what?

Israel's going to carpet bomb Southern Lebanon anyway, UN decided it's better to just let Hezbollah die and not get the Lebanese army killed too.

Which again highlights that the UN is useless. If it cannot stop Israel carpet-bombing the south of Lebanon then what good is it.

[Senkaku]

The UN is completely and utterly useless

Lebanon: So will you help us disarm Hezbollah to uphold the multiple resolutions y'all passed mandating the disarmament of sectarian militias?

UN: No. lol

Lebanon: Will you stop Israel from bombing us? It's kind of y'all's fault Iran, Hezbollah, and Israel pulled us into a regional conflict in the first place.

UN: Also, no. Evacuate. lol

tbf once the resolutions are passed or the bombs are already falling, it's not like the UN has a standing reaction force that can disarm Hezbollah or shoot down Israeli strike aircraft; this is all on the great and regional powers involved for wiping their asses with the notion of international law when it suits them

Israel's going to carpet bomb Southern Lebanon anyway, UN decided it's better to just let Hezbollah die and not get the Lebanese army killed too.

Which again highlights that the UN is useless. If it cannot stop Israel carpet-bombing the south of Lebanon then what good is it.

Negotiation forum for preventing general nuclear war between the permanent SC members and the younger nuclear powers. Stopping genocides or conventional wars is sort of an aspirational goal that none of the big powers have ever been willing to give the UN the necessary power to achieve, because it doesn't suit their interests to have such a powerful international body that could potentially check them when they use force in their spheres of influence or internally.

[Fame And Even More Fame]

Not immediately, no, but eventually, perhaps.

We had to topple the government of Iraq to get the Arabs to acknowledge the Kurds, Assyrians, and Turcomans as equal under the constitution and true ethnic equality has still not been realized in Iraq.

The overwhelming likelihood is that, with the exception of Morocco, the Arab world is not going to be hospitable to Jewish minorities for a couple centuries. And, even then, why should we jump through hoops to implement that policy when we can stick to the two-state solution?

Ok, so? It’s still not their land.
No, it’s not. I don’t even know why you are dying on this hill. The right of return isn’t a secret antisemitic plot.

I don't believe it's a plot, Antisemitic or otherwise. I do not think popular support exists for the right of return in the sense that most people mean though. Hence why I support financial compensation since it more adequately addresses the situation.

Popular support the right of return is basically always conditional on Palestinian administration of the associated communities and villages - which violates arguably would violate the resolution enshrining the Palestinian right of return under international law. Since it mandates that Palestinians exercising the right of return must live at peace with their neighbors.

Literally anything would be stabler than the current situation. With a bit of support, hopefully Palestine will be able to be decently stable.

Yes, to your first statement. Doubtful, to your second statement. I do think being more stable than Syria or Lebanon is attainable, but the bar has been sitting on the ground since the 1970s. Heck, even Israel isn't entirely stable.

Yeah, so Israel started the war. If Egypt launched a preemptive strike, they would have started the war.

I called it a quintessential example of a preemptive strike at the beginning of this conversation.

“Almost all of it”. Well guess what, they don’t have a right to decide which part to keep because it isn’t fucking theirs. I don’t understand why I have to keep repeating this to you.

They're almost certainly going to keep parts of it - even under the least favorable treaty agreements.

You said the Arabs didn’t try to negotiate. They did. And don’t try to pretend the Zionist side weren’t genocidaires either, you don’t get to blame everything on the Arabs this time.

The Arab Higher Committee was dominated by hardline nationalists who were not interested in any serious negotiation with the Zionists or any acknowledgement of the interests or rights of Palestine's Jewish minority. Bringing up a foreign Arab leader or the minority of nationalists who were less extreme doesn't change that.

There were genocidaires on the Jewish side too. Plan Dalet and the various genocidal massacres that occurred during the 1947 Civil War and 1948 War demonstrate that abundantly enough, but that's a separate issue if we're having a conversation about support for negotiations before the 1947 Civil War.

I am a bit more optimistic than you.


Where is the contradiction between Palestinians returning and Palestinians living at peace with their neighbours?


I think Iraq-level stability is achievable.


Yes, so Israel started the war.


Yeah, and that’s the point: they shouldn’t. Because. It. Is. Not. Theirs.


You said that Arabs were not negotiating, and I brought up examples of Arabs negotiating.

[Glorious Freedonia]

Are any other Middle Eastern countries looking to help Israel fight Hezbollah and Hamas? This would be a good time to stand up for Israel and stand against terrorism.

[Spirit of Hope]

[

Blinken is a political appointee sticking to the party line; his bullshit assessment (I believe he vaguely referred to "synthesizing" in some NPR softball interview) is rooted in the administration's political commitment to Israel rather than the verifiable facts on the ground or the text of US law relating to such facts. The administration is flagrantly violating US law to allow for arms transfers to continue, there's no other interpretation possible here. You can say you agree with Blinken that US law should be broken to allow for continued arms transfers, but given your statements of agreement on what kind of conduct the Israelis have been engaging in, there is no way to square the current policy with the current law.

The administration's position, as expressed in the article Iffy cited earlier, is that selling weapons to Israel does not currently violate US law and a number of sources on the ground have, more or less, stated that Israel may or may not be currently abiding by the provisions necessary to make such sales legal - depending on the metrics you employ.

It's not a matter of whether or not I agree. This is something that is subject to debate within the State Department. My own stance, as I have expressed to you before, is that a more limited weapons ban is a sensible approach at this time if we're going to prioritize the minimization of civilian casualties across the board - as a matter of policy.

You do realize you have shifted the goal to the point where it proves Senkaku's point, right?

Specifically the argument that the current US policy is a violation of US law but that the administration, as represented by its political appointies, is overruling that facts as reported by agents on the ground.

Your first response was essentially that only extremists believed that, i.e. Senkaku and Senator Sanders. Then two articles were presented showing State Department experts and personnel on the ground were reporting that Israel was in fact doing activities that required sanctions of various forms be put in place. Your response was to say that Blinken, a political appointie, disagreed so it wasn't a violation of US law. Which is Senkaku's point.

I find it curious that you have agreed Israel is violating international law and that the experts from the State Department agree Israel is violating international law but you still don't want to implement US law that would punish Israel for violating international law. In the report I shared it even went over how easy it would be for Israel to circumnavigate the sanctions, it's not like this would caused your feared "Israel becomes more brutal" argument against sanctions. Which is an argument without a lot of evidence.

[El Lazaro]

Are any other Middle Eastern countries looking to help Israel fight Hezbollah and Hamas? This would be a good time to stand up for Israel and stand against terrorism.

You mean killing Arabs? Saudi Arabia wouldn’t be opposed on principle, but the optics would be bad.

[Jibjibistan]

Are any other Middle Eastern countries looking to help Israel fight Hezbollah and Hamas? This would be a good time to stand up for Israel and stand against terrorism.

Maybe at the start of the conflict,

but after everything Israel has done, no one in the region wants to be seen as helping Israel.

[Stellar Colonies]

Are any other Middle Eastern countries looking to help Israel fight Hezbollah and Hamas? This would be a good time to stand up for Israel and stand against terrorism.

No, but if Iran tries to fire a bunch of missiles and drones at Israel again, Jordan may help shoot some down, plus Saudi Arabia and the UAE providing intelligence, like last time.

[Suriyanakhon]

Are any other Middle Eastern countries looking to help Israel fight Hezbollah and Hamas? This would be a good time to stand up for Israel and stand against terrorism.

Like who? Which Muslim majority country's government is going to want to utterly destroy its credibility with the entire Arab and Islamic world to help a genocidal Zionist state?

[Glorious Freedonia]

Are any other Middle Eastern countries looking to help Israel fight Hezbollah and Hamas? This would be a good time to stand up for Israel and stand against terrorism.

Like who?

I think Lebanon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia would be a good start.

[Jibjibistan]

Like who?

I think Lebanon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia would be a good start.

Lebanon is in the process of being carpet bombed by Israel,

something tells me they aren't trying to help each other.

[Suriyanakhon]

Like who?

I think Lebanon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia would be a good start.

Lebanese people are currently being bombed by Israel, Jordan and Saudi Arabia are both overwhelmingly pro-Palestine (shocking no one). Shooting down some missiles that violate your airspace isn't a show of support.

[Glorious Freedonia]

I think Lebanon, Jordan, and Saudi Arabia would be a good start.

Lebanon is in the process of being carpet bombed by Israel,

something tells me they aren't trying to help each other.

Just Hezbollah is being attacked. The Lebanese are neutral right? They should join the IDF in the fight against Hezbollah in a show of unity.

[Jibjibistan]

Lebanon is in the process of being carpet bombed by Israel,

something tells me they aren't trying to help each other.

Just Hezbollah is being attacked. The Lebanese are neutral right? They should join the IDF in a show of unity.

The Lebanese have bitter memories of previous Israeli invasions, not to mention even if you are neutral, the bombs falling don't care who you support.

Even sects that have historically been friendlier to Israel like Lebanese Christians are pretty pissed with what Israel has done recently.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

Just Hezbollah is being attacked.

Same as every other time Israel attacked Lebanon Hezbollah, right?

[Glorious Freedonia]

Just Hezbollah is being attacked.

Same as every other time Israel attacked Lebanon Hezbollah, right?

Yes. The sad thing is that it seems that innocent civilians are being killed. If Lebanon cooperated with Israel better I am convinced that there would be less civilian deaths.

[Suriyanakhon]

Lebanon is in the process of being carpet bombed by Israel,

something tells me they aren't trying to help each other.

Just Hezbollah is being attacked. The Lebanese are neutral right? They should join the IDF in the fight against Hezbollah in a show of unity.

There is so much utterly wrong with this post it breaks my mind but I'm just gonna point out how utterly ridiculous it is to say that "just" a major political party that represents a large portion of the plurality of the population (Shi'a) is being attacked.

[Europa Undivided]

Same as every other time Israel attacked Lebanon Hezbollah, right?

Yes. The sad thing is that it seems that innocent civilians are being killed. If Lebanon cooperated with Israel better I am convinced that there would be less civilian deaths.

Lebanon's government barely exists to begin with.

[Glorious Freedonia]

Just Hezbollah is being attacked. The Lebanese are neutral right? They should join the IDF in the fight against Hezbollah in a show of unity.

There is so much utterly wrong with this post it breaks my mind but I'm just gonna point out how utterly ridiculous it is to say that "just" a major political party that represents a large portion of the plurality of the population (Shi'a) is being attacked.

Oh come on now. Israel killed a bunch of terrorists there today. So Lebanon did not know that those terrorists were there? Why does Israel have to put in all the work? Lebanon should do its share. Plus, I would rather have my own country get criminals in my country than have to rely on foreigners to do our own stuff.

[Soviet Haaregrad]

Same as every other time Israel attacked Lebanon Hezbollah, right?

Yes. The sad thing is that it seems that innocent civilians are being killed. If Lebanon cooperated with Israel better I am convinced that there would be less civilian deaths.

I'm not sure it's reasonable to expect a state to cooperate with the entity that's attacking their citizens.

If some nation started bombing America because they viewed some segment of the American population as their dedicated enemies, it's unlikely America would kowtow to the attackers, they'd bomb the living shit out of them.

[Finium]

UN mission explicitly created for the sole purpose of maintaining peace in Lebanon asks the Lebanese army to withdraw from their own territory so Israel can carpet bomb it, what?

The UN is completely and utterly useless

The UN is very effective at it's intended purpose: being a forum for international diplomacy. It is not good at being a world government, peacekeeper, or anything else that involves more cooperation than showing up to the same building periodically.

[Glorious Freedonia]

If we had terrorists in the USA and Canada helped us get rid of them, we would say thank you. We may be embarrassed that we did not do it all on our own though.

[USHALLNOTPASS]

The UN is completely and utterly useless

The UN is very effective at it's intended purpose: being a forum for international diplomacy. It is not good at being a world government, peacekeeper, or anything else that involves more cooperation than showing up to the same building periodically.

If the UN had an actual standing military that could accomplish things, any supposed impartiality it has would immediately go into the dumpster (unless the UN also develops its own military industrial complex, which would be very funny)