I stand corrected. It looks like they were actually targeting something.
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by Ifreann » Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:19 pm
Fahran wrote:Ifreann wrote:So to recap, by "We have let Iran engage in rampant slaughter with impunity", you meant "We haven't let Iran engage in rampant slaughter with impunity, but nevertheless!"
We haven't halted them or imposed measures that would halt them. It's not inaccurate to say that they have engaged in rampant slaughter with impunity.
by Fahran » Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:30 pm
Ifreann wrote:It is inaccurate. It's completely inaccurate. It is literally contrary to the meaning of the word. Having been subjected to sanctions they are, definitionally, not acting with impunity.
by Fahran » Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:31 pm
El Lazaro wrote:If I wanted children killed, I would be a Zionist
by Infected Mushroom » Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:34 pm
Fahran wrote:Infected Mushroom wrote:Are you telling me Israel shot down all 100 ballistic missiles? Not one of them struck a military target?
Jesus.
About 180 missiles.
It's quite possible it was intended as a symbolic strike, not unlike the one back in April. That said, given civilian targets were placed at risk and the one confirmed fatality at this point was a Palestinian man in the West Bank, I'm not certain they were even targeting military installations or assets.
by Fahran » Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:38 pm
Infected Mushroom wrote:Then isn’t it a big waste of military resources?
by Fahran » Tue Oct 01, 2024 8:39 pm
El Lazaro wrote:Yes. In fact, I was one of the architects of 9/11.
Come up with less ridiculous lies next time, please.
by Imperializt Russia » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:07 pm
Ostroeuropa wrote:Major-Tom wrote:
Colonization = GDP go brr?? Okay?
GDP had completely flatlined for almost the entirety of human history until the colonial era. It was demonstrably good for mankind. In part, because it imposed particular norms and institutions onto societies that previously lacked them. Moreover, its aftermath has led to the most peaceful and prosperous period in human history, demonstrating that unlike previous forms of imperialism, the European Empires were constructed in such a way that the Pax Occidentis lasted long after their decline rather than resulting in a period of constant warfare until a new dominant power emerged.
Regions which remained uncolonized have either actively and consciously westernized willingly, or have stagnated and remain interminable sources of conflict. The conclusion is simple; finish the job. The alternative is to allow the middle east to remain an outlier in the human family, a danger to those that neighbour them, a danger to themselves, and a drag on the species in terms of innovation, economics, and moral progress.
We know a process which has worked to solve these problems before. We just refuse to do it because we convinced ourselves it was evil. It wasn't.
La Xinga wrote:Europa Undivided wrote:They were either shot down or in the case of those landing in unpopulated areas, simply ignored.
Just another token Iranian response for the sake of saying "We're actually doing something, look!", I guess.
They did manage to free a Palestinian though ... from life.
Also,Lamadia wrote:dangerous socialist attitude
Imperializt Russia wrote:I'm English, you tit.
by SusScorfa » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:10 pm
by Fame And Even More Fame » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:12 pm
Fahran wrote:Fame And Even More Fame wrote:Mohammad VI, lol
He's doing better at Jewish-Arab reconciliation than any other Arab leader at this point.Fame And Even More Fame wrote:So land transfers are good unless Palestinians get land transferred to them in which case it is bad?
The expectation that Israel should accept an unfavorable peace settlement when it has won and continues to win the frozen conflict is a bit silly. You made a point of bringing up international law and I told you what the most practical and effective implementation of said international law was.Fame And Even More Fame wrote:So are you actually arguing that the six day war was actually the same as the 1948 war just so you can keep pretending Israel didn’t start it?
Israel didn't start it. Israel responded to mass-mobilization and acts of war against it - in the context of persistent and unrelenting raids by Palestinian irregulars operating in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. You do not appear to have a problem with Palestinian militias continuously attacking Israel with revanchist aims.Fame And Even More Fame wrote:What? I genuinely don’t get the point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that Syria and the Palestinians deserved to have their land stolen?
I'm saying that repeatedly launching aggressive wars with the intention of claiming territory, in a context where you deliberately leave political boundaries uncertain, has the potential to result in you losing territory in turn. How much territory do you think Syria, Egypt, Jordan, or Palestine would have ceded to Israel if they had managed to capture anything?Fame And Even More Fame wrote:Faisal died of a heart attack? And if you are saying that the majority of Arabs didn’t negotiate in good faith, I could say the same for the majority of Jews.
King Faisal of Iraq and Syria is somehow less relevant than who I believed you were talking about - Abdullah I of Transjordan. I have no idea why you would bring him up in the context of the Mandate of Palestine given it was implemented following the rejection of the Sharifian solution. But the point is that Husseini's faction was never interested in negotiating and represented the bulk of Palestinian leadership after 1929.
by Fame And Even More Fame » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:19 pm
by El Lazaro » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:25 pm
Corrian wrote:I know we don't really want this, but Iran really needs to commit to the act if they want to be taken seriously.
by El Lazaro » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:29 pm
Corrian wrote:El Lazaro wrote:Ok, why don’t you explain how you’d bring Israel to its knees? Maybe you shouldn’t criticize people without first putting yourself in their shoes. For shame.
Every time Iran "escalates" its like one flurry of missiles and then nothing else happens, it makes Iran look weak. Not sure why you sound so mad over my post.
by Corrian » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:36 pm
El Lazaro wrote:Corrian wrote:Every time Iran "escalates" its like one flurry of missiles and then nothing else happens, it makes Iran look weak. Not sure why you sound so mad over my post.
Serious question. No nuclear stuff unless we, uh, I mean they, could create possible deniability. Just for the sake of the hypothetical.
by Europa Undivided » Tue Oct 01, 2024 10:46 pm
Corrian wrote:El Lazaro wrote:Serious question. No nuclear stuff unless we, uh, I mean they, could create possible deniability. Just for the sake of the hypothetical.
I'm not a military expert so I can't really answer that. But periodically shooting missiles then backing down for months doesn't seem like the way.
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by Camtropia » Wed Oct 02, 2024 3:48 am
Ostroeuropa wrote:SusScorfa wrote:
So, despite your data telling you that you are wrong, you assume you are right on this singular occasion because arabs be savages. I think I'll not be continuing this discussion, seems to be veering off-topic and kind of nasty.
The data doesn't tell me I am wrong. I explained to you the data. Prior to the colonial era, GDP had flatlined. Colonialism imposed a modern economy on much of the world, and for the first time, GDP began to grow. When the societies had been modernized and westernized, and then achieved indepenednce, this was even better.
The tier list is simple.
1. Independent and free westernized peoples.
2. Peoples living under a westernizing government of their own choice.
3. People living under a westernizing autocracy or colony.
4. Non-westernized societies.
If 4 refuse to become 2, the best option available is 3, which leads eventually to 1.
The GDP outcome is one example of the benefits. It applies to practically every facet of society.
A big reason for the problems with the middle east, including their interminable hostility to Israel and its manifestation in constant border raids and low level warfare, is due to this lack of modernization of economic, political, cultural, and social norms. Israeli reactions to that go beyond merely being self-defence, they are a microcosm of the colonial era dynamic for a reason, it is the natural progression of mankind. It's merely that the left has picked the wrong side because they've decided the colonizing powers were the bad guys.
If we examine Afghanistan for example, take a look at the destabilization of their society which a brief occupation by western powers imposing western norms caused, and how they have been confronted with educated women being there now and the impossibility of returning to a previous state of affairs. Imagine if we had done it consciously and deliberately as an uplift program instead, and refused to leave until they demonstrated they had westernized.
Why is that outcome not one we want for the middle east as a whole? It beggars belief that people can honestly tell me they think the Palestinians should be free to... what, be governed by Hamas?
As if that would improve matters? If Palestinians honestly think they're better off with Hamas on their street corner than an IDF soldier, that is merely demonstrating they lack the capacity to make such a decision and need further instruction.
I also think being open about it would improve the moral foundation for Israels occupation of the area, rather than it being this perpetual forever war. "We're here to stop you attacking us", by what, shooting them?
It doesn't work. It doesn't attack the roots, merely the leaves.
Restructure their society. Impose the western order. We know that works.
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by Ifreann » Wed Oct 02, 2024 4:46 am
Fahran wrote:Ifreann wrote:It is inaccurate. It's completely inaccurate. It is literally contrary to the meaning of the word. Having been subjected to sanctions they are, definitionally, not acting with impunity.
When the consequence is not consistently upheld and cannot amend behavior, it might as well not exist, no? Israel has experienced a number of repercussions, but I should think you have no problem describing Israel as murdering people with impunity.
by Oceasia » Wed Oct 02, 2024 5:56 am
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by Fartsniffage » Wed Oct 02, 2024 6:16 am
Infected Mushroom wrote:Fahran wrote:About 180 missiles.
It's quite possible it was intended as a symbolic strike, not unlike the one back in April. That said, given civilian targets were placed at risk and the one confirmed fatality at this point was a Palestinian man in the West Bank, I'm not certain they were even targeting military installations or assets.
Then isn’t it a big waste of military resources?
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