2023-24 Israel-Hamas-Hezbollah-Iran-Houthi Conflict

[Fahran]

apparently two Israeli airbases were impacted, Israel has not yet commented on the damage

I stand corrected. It looks like they were actually targeting something.

[El Lazaro]

So you support terrorist organizations? You support 9/11?

He supports Anakin Skywalker for sure.

If I wanted children killed, I would be a Zionist

[Ifreann]

So to recap, by "We have let Iran engage in rampant slaughter with impunity", you meant "We haven't let Iran engage in rampant slaughter with impunity, but nevertheless!"

We haven't halted them or imposed measures that would halt them. It's not inaccurate to say that they have engaged in rampant slaughter with impunity.

It is inaccurate. It's completely inaccurate. It is literally contrary to the meaning of the word. Having been subjected to sanctions they are, definitionally, not acting with impunity.

[Fahran]

It is inaccurate. It's completely inaccurate. It is literally contrary to the meaning of the word. Having been subjected to sanctions they are, definitionally, not acting with impunity.

When the consequence is not consistently upheld and cannot amend behavior, it might as well not exist, no? Israel has experienced a number of repercussions, but I should think you have no problem describing Israel as murdering people with impunity.

[Fahran]

If I wanted children killed, I would be a Zionist

Why limit yourself? There's plenty of fine ideologies that might permit you to support murdering children. /s

[Infected Mushroom]

Are you telling me Israel shot down all 100 ballistic missiles? Not one of them struck a military target?

Jesus.

About 180 missiles.

It's quite possible it was intended as a symbolic strike, not unlike the one back in April. That said, given civilian targets were placed at risk and the one confirmed fatality at this point was a Palestinian man in the West Bank, I'm not certain they were even targeting military installations or assets.

Then isn’t it a big waste of military resources?

[El Lazaro]

I just read that Israeli PM Benjamin Netanyahu has murdered like fifteen thousand children. Not that any of his supporters care because the kids were Arabs, but still.

So you support terrorist organizations? You support 9/11?

Yes. In fact, I was one of the architects of 9/11.

Come up with less ridiculous lies next time, please.

[Fahran]

Then isn’t it a big waste of military resources?

If it serves an important political and military objective, I wouldn't really call it a waste of resources. The point was likely to demonstrate that Iran will respond to strikes against its proxies and its military personnel operating in close proximity to said proxies.

It preserves the impression that Iran is a regional power that can impose consequences for trespasses against its sphere of influence. It reassures its allies and proxies that they're not fighting alone or without support - at a time when they're experiencing serious setbacks. It demonstrates to the Americans and Israelis that they remain a significant geopolitical and strategic threat and that they should be taken seriously. It appeases hawks within Iran itself, who want the regime to make an appearance of looking strong as a defender of Shias throughout the region. All while avoiding escalation that could jeopardize the regime's stability.

The thing is there's a strong likelihood Iran comes out worse in a straight-up spat. It has happened before. And that's dangerous for the regime at a time when reformists are marching in the streets over women's rights, mass executions, police brutality, and torture, with some outright calling for regime change. There's already been resentment expressed over the amount of money Iran has been sending abroad to fight foreign wars. The last thing the regime needs right now is a US fleet destroying a bunch of its ships again. Or Israel striking its prestigious nuclear facilities. Something that is possible with escalation.

[Fahran]

Yes. In fact, I was one of the architects of 9/11.

Come up with less ridiculous lies next time, please.

Ghassan al-Lazari, the most notorious pilot in all of Oman.

[Kaumudeen]

Who would have thought that the Arab leaders would be reduced to being pawns of either Jews or Iranians.

[Imperializt Russia]

Colonization = GDP go brr?? Okay?

GDP had completely flatlined for almost the entirety of human history until the colonial era. It was demonstrably good for mankind. In part, because it imposed particular norms and institutions onto societies that previously lacked them. Moreover, its aftermath has led to the most peaceful and prosperous period in human history, demonstrating that unlike previous forms of imperialism, the European Empires were constructed in such a way that the Pax Occidentis lasted long after their decline rather than resulting in a period of constant warfare until a new dominant power emerged.

Regions which remained uncolonized have either actively and consciously westernized willingly, or have stagnated and remain interminable sources of conflict. The conclusion is simple; finish the job. The alternative is to allow the middle east to remain an outlier in the human family, a danger to those that neighbour them, a danger to themselves, and a drag on the species in terms of innovation, economics, and moral progress.

We know a process which has worked to solve these problems before. We just refuse to do it because we convinced ourselves it was evil. It wasn't.

GDP is a ludicrous metric to try and seriously track before the industrial revolution, when the world was not financialised. Ostro, you know this.

It is precisely as ahistorical as trying to apply the labels "communist" or "capitalist" to ancient empire.

They were either shot down or in the case of those landing in unpopulated areas, simply ignored.

Just another token Iranian response for the sake of saying "We're actually doing something, look!", I guess.

They did manage to free a Palestinian though ... from life.

Israel was conducting shootdowns over Jordan (where three were injured by interceptor fragments) and the West Bank. It's certainly possible that it is fragments from a shootdown - which is what Palestinian civil defence and the Jericho mayor describe it as.
https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/live/cg4qx62kkxxt?post=asset%3A34d756dd-56f3-46cf-a3a3-0966ee55c2b4#post

[SusScorfa]

Meanwhile, Israel keeps targeting schools in Gaza, ostensibly for the reasons that they are Hamas command centres or near rocket launch sites.

They have managed quite the long list of schools thus far, I guess they ran out of hospitals and mosques.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attacks_on_schools_during_the_Israeli_invasion_of_Gaza

[Fame And Even More Fame]

Mohammad VI, lol

He's doing better at Jewish-Arab reconciliation than any other Arab leader at this point.

So land transfers are good unless Palestinians get land transferred to them in which case it is bad?

The expectation that Israel should accept an unfavorable peace settlement when it has won and continues to win the frozen conflict is a bit silly. You made a point of bringing up international law and I told you what the most practical and effective implementation of said international law was.

So are you actually arguing that the six day war was actually the same as the 1948 war just so you can keep pretending Israel didn’t start it?

Israel didn't start it. Israel responded to mass-mobilization and acts of war against it - in the context of persistent and unrelenting raids by Palestinian irregulars operating in Jordan, Lebanon, and Syria. You do not appear to have a problem with Palestinian militias continuously attacking Israel with revanchist aims.

What? I genuinely don’t get the point you are trying to make here. Are you saying that Syria and the Palestinians deserved to have their land stolen?

I'm saying that repeatedly launching aggressive wars with the intention of claiming territory, in a context where you deliberately leave political boundaries uncertain, has the potential to result in you losing territory in turn. How much territory do you think Syria, Egypt, Jordan, or Palestine would have ceded to Israel if they had managed to capture anything?

Faisal died of a heart attack? And if you are saying that the majority of Arabs didn’t negotiate in good faith, I could say the same for the majority of Jews.

King Faisal of Iraq and Syria is somehow less relevant than who I believed you were talking about - Abdullah I of Transjordan. I have no idea why you would bring him up in the context of the Mandate of Palestine given it was implemented following the rejection of the Sharifian solution. But the point is that Husseini's faction was never interested in negotiating and represented the bulk of Palestinian leadership after 1929.

Arresting people for criticising him doesn’t exactly spark hope in me.


Funny how success on the battlefield somehow translates into deserving to steal land?


Which was it, Egypt or Palestinian militias?


“But if they won they would done bad things” isn’t really a good argument. Besides, you said that “Pursuing ethnic maximalism and irregular fighting for forty years has consequences.” in response to me criticising Israel stealing land. Are you saying that Israel had a right to steal that land, or that the Palestinians deserved to have their land stolen? Because that sure is what it sounds like you’re saying.


Ok, the bulk of the Zionist leadership weren’t interested in negotiating. Even at the time of the Peel Commission they wanted the whole of Palestine.

[Fame And Even More Fame]

Iran claimed to have destroyed over 20 F-35s with strikes at Nevatim Airbase. Considering this is the Iranian government, I’m not sure how true this is. I’m pretty sure Iran have struck Nevatim Airbase though.

[Corrian]

I know we don't really want this, but Iran really needs to commit to the act if they want to be taken seriously.

[El Lazaro]

I know we don't really want this, but Iran really needs to commit to the act if they want to be taken seriously.

Ok, why don’t you explain how you’d bring Israel to its knees? Maybe you shouldn’t criticize people without first putting yourself in their shoes. For shame.

[Corrian]

I know we don't really want this, but Iran really needs to commit to the act if they want to be taken seriously.

Ok, why don’t you explain how you’d bring Israel to its knees? Maybe you shouldn’t criticize people without first putting yourself in their shoes. For shame.

Every time Iran "escalates" its like one flurry of missiles and then nothing else happens, it makes Iran look weak. Not sure why you sound so mad over my post.

[El Lazaro]

Ok, why don’t you explain how you’d bring Israel to its knees? Maybe you shouldn’t criticize people without first putting yourself in their shoes. For shame.

Every time Iran "escalates" its like one flurry of missiles and then nothing else happens, it makes Iran look weak. Not sure why you sound so mad over my post.

Serious question. No nuclear stuff unless we, uh, I mean they, could create possible deniability. Just for the sake of the hypothetical.

[Corrian]

Every time Iran "escalates" its like one flurry of missiles and then nothing else happens, it makes Iran look weak. Not sure why you sound so mad over my post.

Serious question. No nuclear stuff unless we, uh, I mean they, could create possible deniability. Just for the sake of the hypothetical.

I'm not a military expert so I can't really answer that. But periodically shooting missiles then backing down for months doesn't seem like the way.

[Europa Undivided]

Serious question. No nuclear stuff unless we, uh, I mean they, could create possible deniability. Just for the sake of the hypothetical.

I'm not a military expert so I can't really answer that. But periodically shooting missiles then backing down for months doesn't seem like the way.

It's for the sake of saying that they're doing something to fight the ebul joos.

[Askio]

How are the Lebanese military and police responding to the Israeli incursion? Somehow they aren't mentioned in the news at all, do they even care about the situation or is the country basically an anarchy? Allowing militias after the Lebanese civil war was a huge mistake

[Camtropia]

So, despite your data telling you that you are wrong, you assume you are right on this singular occasion because arabs be savages. I think I'll not be continuing this discussion, seems to be veering off-topic and kind of nasty.

The data doesn't tell me I am wrong. I explained to you the data. Prior to the colonial era, GDP had flatlined. Colonialism imposed a modern economy on much of the world, and for the first time, GDP began to grow. When the societies had been modernized and westernized, and then achieved indepenednce, this was even better.

The tier list is simple.

1. Independent and free westernized peoples.

2. Peoples living under a westernizing government of their own choice.

3. People living under a westernizing autocracy or colony.

4. Non-westernized societies.

If 4 refuse to become 2, the best option available is 3, which leads eventually to 1.

The GDP outcome is one example of the benefits. It applies to practically every facet of society.

A big reason for the problems with the middle east, including their interminable hostility to Israel and its manifestation in constant border raids and low level warfare, is due to this lack of modernization of economic, political, cultural, and social norms. Israeli reactions to that go beyond merely being self-defence, they are a microcosm of the colonial era dynamic for a reason, it is the natural progression of mankind. It's merely that the left has picked the wrong side because they've decided the colonizing powers were the bad guys.

If we examine Afghanistan for example, take a look at the destabilization of their society which a brief occupation by western powers imposing western norms caused, and how they have been confronted with educated women being there now and the impossibility of returning to a previous state of affairs. Imagine if we had done it consciously and deliberately as an uplift program instead, and refused to leave until they demonstrated they had westernized.

Why is that outcome not one we want for the middle east as a whole? It beggars belief that people can honestly tell me they think the Palestinians should be free to... what, be governed by Hamas?

As if that would improve matters? If Palestinians honestly think they're better off with Hamas on their street corner than an IDF soldier, that is merely demonstrating they lack the capacity to make such a decision and need further instruction.

I also think being open about it would improve the moral foundation for Israels occupation of the area, rather than it being this perpetual forever war. "We're here to stop you attacking us", by what, shooting them?

It doesn't work. It doesn't attack the roots, merely the leaves.

Restructure their society. Impose the western order. We know that works.

If we'd stayed in Afghanistan "until they demonstrated they had westernized", we would probably be sending millions of pounds and thousands of young men (not all of whom come back) over in a futile effort every year until I don't even know when. Probably several decades in the future, when all the current members of the Taliban die of old age, and when every relevant political leader has been taught "western values" in the school they studied in as a child. And then yay, we have "westernized" some random shithole after the better part of a century of pain and war. Does this provide a net benefit for either Afghanistan (whose infrastructure would be destroyed even further from decades of drone strikes and car bombs) or the West? Probably not?

The colonial regimes of old collapsed because:
1: As (Western) ideas such as nationalism and self-determination began to spread to people living in colonies (due to more people able to read/write, printing presses, telegraphs, railway connections), people started to realise that they too should have their own leaders instead of being ruled by foreigners who don't care about them.

2: They were REALLY EXPENSIVE, especially after local resistance increased due to the first point. The British and French colonial empires collapsed because after WW2, their own people couldn't afford to (and didn't want to) pay ridiculously high taxes to fund what were essentially cruel vanity projects that only benefitted rich businessmen.

Going back in and trying to do colonisation today (which I think you are basically suggesting) would be even worse. With social media and mobile phones, discontent and ideas about nationalism and independence can spread even faster than in the mid 20th century - especially as if you are suggesting, the whole point is to try and "westernize" people. This would mean teaching them about Western ideals such as nationalism, democracy, and self-determination. They would very quickly look around and realise that "hey, why don't we follow through with these ideals by kicking out the foreigners occupying our land?"

TLDR: colonialism sucks for both the people colonised and the people who have to pay for the colonialism.

[Ifreann]

It is inaccurate. It's completely inaccurate. It is literally contrary to the meaning of the word. Having been subjected to sanctions they are, definitionally, not acting with impunity.

When the consequence is not consistently upheld and cannot amend behavior, it might as well not exist, no? Israel has experienced a number of repercussions, but I should think you have no problem describing Israel as murdering people with impunity.

Strongly worded letters, sanctions and military strikes. Clearly the same.

[Oceasia]

Israel declares UN SecGen persona non grata and banned him from entering the country

Israel is welcome to leave the UN and make their rogue state status official.

[Fartsniffage]

About 180 missiles.

It's quite possible it was intended as a symbolic strike, not unlike the one back in April. That said, given civilian targets were placed at risk and the one confirmed fatality at this point was a Palestinian man in the West Bank, I'm not certain they were even targeting military installations or assets.

Then isn’t it a big waste of military resources?

Munitions have a shelf life. If they fired off their old missiles it might even have been cheaper than disposing of them.