Mosque by Ground Zero?

[NeoGordonisia]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Not Islam, but a political interpretation of Islam.

i doubt the terrorists thought of it like that

No shit, Sherlock.


They're terrorists, radicals, psychopaths. They would be just as stupid if they were born Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. What your proposing is, because people are idiots, we should deport Muslims?

I propose we deport all Christians, then, because they bomb abortion clinics.

wtf? I never said we should we deport Muslims, I just said they should reconsider their construction site for a mosque! maybe you're the idiot here, dumbass
and i'd love to see you deport Christians and see 76% of the population fall, assuming you're American

[Callisdrun]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Are you saying that Christians have never committed atrocities in the name of their religion?

[Gauthier]

No. Radicalism and poor choices by several large countries (England, America, and Russia) is the reason the towers went down. Not Islam.

What utter rubbish.

Islam has been violent since day 1 and has advocated the murder of unbelievers since day 1. Islam's founder was very explicitly clear on what he thought should be done (ie to 'slay the unbelievers wherever they can be found'). And most significantly, those words and actions of Muhammad predate anything the USA did, as a matter of fact they predate the USA itself.

It is therefore not: USA actions ---> islamic reaction

But the other way round.

Why does this ridiculous 'radicals misinterpret islam' BS apologism keep persisting? It is just as annoying and false as 'Lenin meant well and Stalin perverted it'...

*expecting imminent rant by Gauthier denying the facts*

Awww isn't that cuuuute? It's nice to have yet another Brown Scare Atheist conveniently deny the fact (oh look, the irony and hypocrisy!) that Al'Qaeda staged the attacks specifically to terrorize Americans into pulling out of the Middle East. You probably share the exact same notion as Sunny that they did it because they "want to genocide all Americans," ha ha.

And I got mentioned by name, feels sooo special.

[F1-Insanity]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Are you saying that Christians have never committed atrocities in the name of their religion?

Both these odious cults advocate violence to unbelievers, even if they do do that in different ways.

9/11 was done based on justification that can be readily found in religion, no fringe interpretation necessary. At the end of the day, Abrahamic monotheist religions are all supremacist and all gloat in the prospects of them going to 'heaven' and all others to 'hell' to be tortured forever and ever.

Imagine no religion...

[F1-Insanity]

Awww isn't that cuuuute? It's nice to have yet another Brown Scare Atheist conveniently deny the fact (oh look, the irony and hypocrisy!) that Al'Qaeda staged the attacks specifically to terrorize Americans into pulling out of the Middle East. You probably share the exact same notion as Sunny that they did it because they "want to genocide all Americans," ha ha.

And I got mentioned by name, feels sooo special.

I'd rather be a 'brown scare' (whatever the heck that is) atheist than an apologist for a genocidal cult like islam.

Isn't it cute that someone tries to implicitly portray criticism of genocidal cults as racism?

[Callisdrun]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Not Islam, but a political interpretation of Islam.

i doubt the terrorists thought of it like that

No shit, Sherlock.


They're terrorists, radicals, psychopaths. They would be just as stupid if they were born Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. What your proposing is, because people are idiots, we should deport Muslims?

I propose we deport all Christians, then, because they bomb abortion clinics.

wtf? I never said we should we deport Muslims, I just said they should reconsider their construction site for a mosque! maybe you're the idiot here, dumbass
and i'd love to see you deport Christians and see 76% of the population fall, assuming you're American

Well, now that you mention it...

[Unchecked Expansion]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Are you saying that Christians have never committed atrocities in the name of their religion?

Both these odious cults advocate violence to unbelievers, even if they do do that in different ways.

9/11 was done based on justification that can be readily found in religion, no fringe interpretation necessary. At the end of the day, Abrahamic monotheist religions are all supremacist and all gloat in the prospects of them going to 'heaven' and all others to 'hell' to be tortured forever and ever.

Imagine no religion...

There's a poster up near me. It reads 'Muslims for Love, Peace and Loyalty', and is from a pro-peace, pro-Britain Islamic group
Now seeing as we are judging an entire religious group by the action of small sects, this means Muslims are all pacifist pro-westerners

[Vervaria]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Are you saying that Christians have never committed atrocities in the name of their religion?

Both these odious cults advocate violence to unbelievers, even if they do do that in different ways.

9/11 was done based on justification that can be readily found in religion, no fringe interpretation necessary. At the end of the day, Abrahamic monotheist religions are all supremacist and all gloat in the prospects of them going to 'heaven' and all others to 'hell' to be tortured forever and ever.

Imagine no religion...

There's a poster up near me. It reads 'Muslims for Love, Peace and Loyalty', and is from a pro-peace, pro-Britain Islamic group
Now seeing as we are judging an entire religious group by the action of small sects, this means Muslims are all pacifist pro-westerners

Maybe if we wait long enough he'll repeat Sun Aut Ex's claim that at least half of all Muslims are active terrorists.

[Callisdrun]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Are you saying that Christians have never committed atrocities in the name of their religion?

Both these odious cults advocate violence to unbelievers, even if they do do that in different ways.

9/11 was done based on justification that can be readily found in religion, no fringe interpretation necessary. At the end of the day, Abrahamic monotheist religions are all supremacist and all gloat in the prospects of them going to 'heaven' and all others to 'hell' to be tortured forever and ever.

Imagine no religion...

No thanks, I rather like mine.

Which isn't Christianity or Islam. Seriously, though, most Christians and Muslims I've met are ordinary people. I see fundamentalism in any ideology as a problem.

[Katganistan]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Not Islam, but a political interpretation of Islam.

i doubt the terrorists thought of it like that

No shit, Sherlock.

They're terrorists, radicals, psychopaths. They would be just as stupid if they were born Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. What your proposing is, because people are idiots, we should deport Muslims?

I propose we deport all Christians, then, because they bomb abortion clinics.

wtf? I never said we should we deport Muslims, I just said they should reconsider their construction site for a mosque! maybe you're the idiot here, dumbass
and i'd love to see you deport Christians and see 76% of the population fall, assuming you're American

And that's flaming. KNOCK IT OFF.

Insults are not a substitute for an argument.

[F1-Insanity]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Are you saying that Christians have never committed atrocities in the name of their religion?

Both these odious cults advocate violence to unbelievers, even if they do do that in different ways.

9/11 was done based on justification that can be readily found in religion, no fringe interpretation necessary. At the end of the day, Abrahamic monotheist religions are all supremacist and all gloat in the prospects of them going to 'heaven' and all others to 'hell' to be tortured forever and ever.

Imagine no religion...

There's a poster up near me. It reads 'Muslims for Love, Peace and Loyalty', and is from a pro-peace, pro-Britain Islamic group
Now seeing as we are judging an entire religious group by the action of small sects, this means Muslims are all pacifist pro-westerners

Well good for them. I applaud them.

It also is further proof for a view I hold, namely that the majority of folks who claim to follow a religion are indeed 'peaceful and normal folks'. But these people may be 'peaceful and normal folks', their 'religion' of choice most specifically is not. Or to make another godwin like historical allegory, it wasn't the germans, it was nazism. Just like it isn't muslims, but islam. And also, historically to the same degree it wasn't christians, but christianity. And finally, it wasn't the Russians, it was Leninist/Stalinist communism. In each case, the 'radicals' were a tiny minority but were not wrong on their interpretation of their ideology of choice.

Oh excuse me I gotta go and spread nasty rumours about my 'brown' friends

[Vesser]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Not Islam, but a political interpretation of Islam.

i doubt the terrorists thought of it like that

No shit, Sherlock.


They're terrorists, radicals, psychopaths. They would be just as stupid if they were born Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. What your proposing is, because people are idiots, we should deport Muslims?

I propose we deport all Christians, then, because they bomb abortion clinics.

wtf? I never said we should we deport Muslims, I just said they should reconsider their construction site for a mosque! maybe you're the idiot here, dumbass
and i'd love to see you deport Christians and see 76% of the population fall, assuming you're American

My mistake. I was making a general statement, as Noitamiiced made that statement, and you seemed to attempt to back up his argument.

[F1-Insanity]

Which isn't Christianity or Islam. Seriously, though, most Christians and Muslims I've met are ordinary people. I see fundamentalism in any ideology as a problem.

I think the problem is ideologies which allow for 'fundamentalist' views. Seems in some ideologies those doors are wide open.

[Qwcasd]

A New York Muslim group wants to build a $100 million mosque near Ground Zero. However, several 9/11 victims' groups oppose this. Is it racism or not?

I think it somewhat is prejudicial behaviour. It wasn't the mainstream religion that motivated them but a fringe section. Despite how I feel about all religions, I feel their objections to be completely void of merit.

This

[Unchecked Expansion]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Are you saying that Christians have never committed atrocities in the name of their religion?

Both these odious cults advocate violence to unbelievers, even if they do do that in different ways.

9/11 was done based on justification that can be readily found in religion, no fringe interpretation necessary. At the end of the day, Abrahamic monotheist religions are all supremacist and all gloat in the prospects of them going to 'heaven' and all others to 'hell' to be tortured forever and ever.

Imagine no religion...

There's a poster up near me. It reads 'Muslims for Love, Peace and Loyalty', and is from a pro-peace, pro-Britain Islamic group
Now seeing as we are judging an entire religious group by the action of small sects, this means Muslims are all pacifist pro-westerners

Well good for them. I applaud them.

It also is further proof for a view I hold, namely that the majority of folks who claim to follow a religion are indeed 'peaceful and normal folks'. But these people may be 'peaceful and normal folks', their 'religion' of choice most specifically is not. Or to make another godwin like historical allegory, it wasn't the germans, it was nazism. Just like it isn't muslims, but islam. And also, historically to the same degree it wasn't christians, but christianity. And finally, it wasn't the Russians, it was Leninist/Stalinist communism. In each case, the 'radicals' were a tiny minority but were not wrong on their interpretation of their ideology of choice.

Oh excuse me I gotta go and spread nasty rumours about my 'brown' friends

If the majority of followers of any religion are peaceful and normal, then it seems more logical to assume that their religion as currently practised is peaceful and normal. Every religion has sordid and bloody pasts, but modern interpretations are different.

[Gauthier]

Awww isn't that cuuuute? It's nice to have yet another Brown Scare Atheist conveniently deny the fact (oh look, the irony and hypocrisy!) that Al'Qaeda staged the attacks specifically to terrorize Americans into pulling out of the Middle East. You probably share the exact same notion as Sunny that they did it because they "want to genocide all Americans," ha ha.

And I got mentioned by name, feels sooo special.

I'd rather be a 'brown scare' (whatever the heck that is) atheist than an apologist for a genocidal cult like islam.

Isn't it cute that someone tries to implicitly portray criticism of genocidal cults as racism?

Brown Scare Atheist? Means that you'd hold hands with members of every other religion in the world when it comes to declaring Islam the greatest evil in the world. Don't give me that "All religion is bad" copout you like to lip service to in trying to justify your so-called atheism. You're just like Sunny and Mitty, only of a supposedly non-religious flavor.

Isn't it cute that someone tries to implicitly portray members of a terrorist group with specific political objectives as being the majority of a global religion? And where did I say it was racism? Want to highlight the post?

And here's a little something since you're under the belief that atheists are inherently better than the religious:

I just got a new purpose in life.
I want to fly a plane [a bomber] over the Mecca, take it down, then build a Temple of Positive Atheism (essentially a bunch of anti-religious statues) a dozen yards from the ground zero, and accuse anyone opposed of being a bigot.
Well, maybe not as much a purpose as an addition to a long list of pipe dreams I won't be able to fulfill. Still.

And then the irony comes as you get a personal video or letter of congratulations from Bin Ladin for giving exactly what he wanted, a war between the Muslim world and the West as well as a life long orgasm. Which would make you an even bigger al'Qaeda sympathizer than every Muslim in the United States.

I have a fallout shelter in my basement.

Because we all know how this war is going to go. Just wait till the rain washes down most of the particles - there won't be a whole lot, since almost all will have to come a long way from overseas.

Yeah, a lot different from fundamentalists, really.

[F1-Insanity]

Well good for them. I applaud them.

It also is further proof for a view I hold, namely that the majority of folks who claim to follow a religion are indeed 'peaceful and normal folks'. But these people may be 'peaceful and normal folks', their 'religion' of choice most specifically is not. Or to make another godwin like historical allegory, it wasn't the germans, it was nazism. Just like it isn't muslims, but islam. And also, historically to the same degree it wasn't christians, but christianity. And finally, it wasn't the Russians, it was Leninist/Stalinist communism. In each case, the 'radicals' were a tiny minority but were not wrong on their interpretation of their ideology of choice.

Oh excuse me I gotta go and spread nasty rumours about my 'brown' friends

If the majority of followers of any religion are peaceful and normal, then it seems more logical to assume that their religion as currently practised is peaceful and normal. Every religion has sordid and bloody pasts, but modern interpretations are different.

That does not however take away anything from the fact that the 'religions' in question specifically advocate the murder of unbelievers, in one way or another (differs per Abrahamic monotheist religion).

I do not see mass movements in either of the large two Abrahamic monotheist religions to tear up the 'violent bits' in their 'holy' books of choice.

[NeoGordonisia]

Islam is the reason the towers went down

The same way Christianity is the reason children get molested.

no because the radicals were motivated by Islam to commit their attrocity
and Christians aren't motivated by Christianity to molest

Not Islam, but a political interpretation of Islam.

i doubt the terrorists thought of it like that

No shit, Sherlock.


They're terrorists, radicals, psychopaths. They would be just as stupid if they were born Christian, Muslim, or Jewish. What your proposing is, because people are idiots, we should deport Muslims?

I propose we deport all Christians, then, because they bomb abortion clinics.

wtf? I never said we should we deport Muslims, I just said they should reconsider their construction site for a mosque! maybe you're the idiot here, dumbass
and i'd love to see you deport Christians and see 76% of the population fall, assuming you're American

My mistake. I was making a general statement, as Noitamiiced made that statement, and you seemed to attempt to back up his argument.

understood, but to make it clear: i am NOT advocating the deportation of all American Muslims, I was just suggesting that that particular congregation pick a less significant place to build their mosque. then the argument kind of spiraled into a completely wrong direction, and i made some statements that i'm starting to wish i hadn't.
and now we're here

[Tekania]

understood, but to make it clear: i am NOT advocating the deportation of all American Muslims, I was just suggesting that that particular congregation pick a less significant place to build their mosque. then the argument kind of spiraled into a completely wrong direction, and i made some statements that i'm starting to wish i hadn't.
and now we're here

A decaying old former Burlington Coat Factory store is a place of "significance"? What's next, not being able to tear down old 7-11's?

[Gauthier]

understood, but to make it clear: i am NOT advocating the deportation of all American Muslims, I was just suggesting that that particular congregation pick a less significant place to build their mosque. then the argument kind of spiraled into a completely wrong direction, and i made some statements that i'm starting to wish i hadn't.
and now we're here

And like so many people, you missed the part where the property had been owned with the plan of building a mosque YEARS before 9/11. Why not forbid the construction of new churches in Wichita because George Tiller was murdered by a pro-lifer?

[F1-Insanity]

Brown Scare Atheist? Means that you'd hold hands with members of every other religion in the world when it comes to declaring Islam the greatest evil in the world. Don't give me that "All religion is bad" copout you like to lip service to in trying to justify your so-called atheism. You're just like Sunny and Mitty, only of a supposedly non-religious flavor.

I do not hold hands with any religion anymore than vegetarians hold hands with Hitler just because Hitler was a vegetarian too (hey look, another godwinesque reference). And anyway, all of the Abrahamic variants of monotheism have this 'we are the correct religion, the others are evil/inferior' and I do not exactly share that supremacist attitude. However, I do not deny claiming moral supremacy over those who glorify a non-existent thing ('god') and gloat over my apparent impending 'eternal torture' for refusing to believe. Its a bit like communists saying nazism was bad (unbelievable, another godwin reference) yet denying that communism was the #1 murderous ideology of the 20th century. I won't side with either because they are both evil, even though I agree with both that the other one is evil.

Isn't it cute that someone tries to implicitly portray members of a terrorist group with specific political objectives as being the majority of a global religion? And where did I say it was racism? Want to highlight the post?

What part of the word 'implicit' is too hard for you to grasp?

I just got a new purpose in life.
I want to fly a plane [a bomber] over the Mecca, take it down, then build a Temple of Positive Atheism (essentially a bunch of anti-religious statues) a dozen yards from the ground zero, and accuse anyone opposed of being a bigot.
Well, maybe not as much a purpose as an addition to a long list of pipe dreams I won't be able to fulfill. Still.

And then the irony comes as you get a personal video or letter of congratulations from Bin Ladin for giving exactly what he wanted, a war between the Muslim world and the West as well as a life long orgasm. Which would make you an even bigger al'Qaeda sympathizer than every Muslim in the United States.

I have a fallout shelter in my basement.

Because we all know how this war is going to go. Just wait till the rain washes down most of the particles - there won't be a whole lot, since almost all will have to come a long way from overseas.

Yeah, a lot different from fundamentalists, really.

Except that the fundies are actually killing people, using the texts from their 'holy' books as an excuse.

One fantasy/pipe dream of one NS forum poster does not umpteen acts of terror/killings by 'fundamentalists' equate.

[NeoGordonisia]

understood, but to make it clear: i am NOT advocating the deportation of all American Muslims, I was just suggesting that that particular congregation pick a less significant place to build their mosque. then the argument kind of spiraled into a completely wrong direction, and i made some statements that i'm starting to wish i hadn't.
and now we're here

And like so many people, you missed the part where the property had been owned with the plan of building a mosque YEARS before 9/11. Why not forbid the construction of new churches in Wichita because George Tiller was murdered by a pro-lifer?

seems like you didn't read my earlier statements. I realize that it is their legal right to build the mosque. bbut i also think it would be insensitive, given the circumstances, to build said mosque. so get your own facts straight

[F1-Insanity]

understood, but to make it clear: i am NOT advocating the deportation of all American Muslims, I was just suggesting that that particular congregation pick a less significant place to build their mosque. then the argument kind of spiraled into a completely wrong direction, and i made some statements that i'm starting to wish i hadn't.
and now we're here

And like so many people, you missed the part where the property had been owned with the plan of building a mosque YEARS before 9/11. Why not forbid the construction of new churches in Wichita because George Tiller was murdered by a pro-lifer?

seems like you didn't read my earlier statements. I realize that it is their legal right to build the mosque. bbut i also think it would be insensitive, given the circumstances, to build said mosque. so get your own facts straight

Shame on you, we should always take the sensitivities of others into account, yet they will never have to take ours into account. Doncha know about white man's burden?

[Vesser]

understood, but to make it clear: i am NOT advocating the deportation of all American Muslims, I was just suggesting that that particular congregation pick a less significant place to build their mosque. then the argument kind of spiraled into a completely wrong direction, and i made some statements that i'm starting to wish i hadn't.
and now we're here

And like so many people, you missed the part where the property had been owned with the plan of building a mosque YEARS before 9/11. Why not forbid the construction of new churches in Wichita because George Tiller was murdered by a pro-lifer?

seems like you didn't read my earlier statements. I realize that it is their legal right to build the mosque. bbut i also think it would be insensitive, given the circumstances, to build said mosque. so get your own facts straight

Shame on you, we should always take the sensitivities of others into account, yet they will never have to take ours into account. Doncha know about white man's burden?

Okay, as a White, Law Abiding, American, who was present and affected by the collapse of the Twin Towers, I don't see how this is so offensive.

Let them build their Mosque. Let the Muslims attend that Mosque. They aren't hurting anybody. They aren't preaching hate, and death, and genocide. Let them worship wherever they please, it shows that the terrorists have not won.

[Unchecked Expansion]

understood, but to make it clear: i am NOT advocating the deportation of all American Muslims, I was just suggesting that that particular congregation pick a less significant place to build their mosque. then the argument kind of spiraled into a completely wrong direction, and i made some statements that i'm starting to wish i hadn't.
and now we're here

And like so many people, you missed the part where the property had been owned with the plan of building a mosque YEARS before 9/11. Why not forbid the construction of new churches in Wichita because George Tiller was murdered by a pro-lifer?

seems like you didn't read my earlier statements. I realize that it is their legal right to build the mosque. bbut i also think it would be insensitive, given the circumstances, to build said mosque. so get your own facts straight

Shame on you, we should always take the sensitivities of others into account, yet they will never have to take ours into account. Doncha know about white man's burden?

It's only offending people's 'sensibilities' because people are being moronic. Manchester would allow Catholics to build churches where-ever they liked for example. But some people are upset that a group of people who lived and worked around the World Trade Centre, who may have had friends and family die there, want a place of worship because they happen to belong to the same broad religious group as a bunch of fanatic terrorists. Meanwhile Christianity is not associated with the IRA or the Lords Resistance Army