Late 2023 Israel-Hamas Conflict, Thread 2 of ?

[Sarduri]

Deadline Passes but Students at Columbia Encampment Have Not Dispersed (New York Times)
University officials gave the pro-Palestinian demonstrators a 2 p.m. deadline and threatened to suspend them if they did not leave.

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian demonstrators marched around the protest encampment at Columbia University on Monday as a deadline set by the university to clear its central lawn passed and students inside had not dispersed.

Columbia had given students until 2 p.m. to clear out from the encampment, warning them that they would face immediate suspension if they did not leave by then.

There was no visible presence of New York Police Department officers and no immediate sign that university public safety officers were moving in. But it remained unclear how the school would follow through on enforcing its deadline.

There were about 80 tents and there appeared to be roughly 60 protesters left in the encampment at around 2 p.m. The campus was also thronged with media.

Elga Castro, 47, an adjunct professor in the Spanish department at Barnard College, Columbia’s sister school, stood with other faculty and staff members, guarding access to the tents. She said she was there not because of her views, but because of her desire to protect her students’ abilities to protest. “I have my opinions on Gaza and Palestine, but I am mainly here to protect my students,” she said.

Ms Castro said she had not received any word from Columbia about whether faculty participating in the protest would face censure.

Frances Anderson, 19, an engineering student, said she found the protests inspiring but was sitting them out because she felt that the students’ message was being distorted by outside influences. She said the demonstrations had taken on a hostile tone in recent days that felt out of step with their goals of peace. “I’m very impressed by the people who are able to give up their school life for what they believe in,” she said. “The right to protest is fundamental to the American experience. But now the anger is on all sides.”

Amid the confusion, university administrators received a letter on Monday from 21 members of Congress, expressing frustration that the encampment had not already been dismantled. “As a result of this disruption on campus, supported by some faculty members, many students have been prevented from safely attending class, the main library, and from leaving their dorm rooms,” the letter said.

The university’s order to clear the encampment appeared be to an attempt to clear the area without calling in the Police Department, whose intervention on April 18 at the request of Columbia administrators led to more than 100 student arrests and incited an international movement to build similar encampments on dozens of university and college campuses.
Students in the encampment on Monday morning received a notice from administrators stating that negotiations with student protest leaders were at an impasse. It urged the students to clear out voluntarily to allow the school to prepare the lawn for graduation ceremonies on May 15.

“The current unauthorized encampment and disruption on Columbia University’s campus is creating an unwelcoming environment for members of our community,” the notice stated. “Please promptly gather your belongings and leave the encampment.”

Students will be not be punished for their participation in the encampment if they sign a form promising not to break any university rules through the end of the next academic year. Students in the encampment who already face discipline from previous violations, but who are there anyway, may not be eligible for the same deal, the document stated.

The notice also warned students that they might still be held accountable for discrimination and harassment charges stemming from their involvement in the encampment even if they did sign the form.
For those who do not leave, it was not immediately apparent how Columbia would enforce the clearing of the encampment. Last Friday, Nemat Shafik, Columbia’s president, in a statement to the community, all but ruled out calling in the Police Department again to clear the space.

“We called on N.Y.P.D. to clear an encampment once,” she wrote, in a notice co-signed by the co-chairs of Columbia’s board of trustees, “but we all share the view, based on discussions within our community and with outside experts, that to bring back the N.Y.P.D. at this time would be counterproductive, further inflaming what is happening on campus, and drawing thousands to our doorstep who would threaten our community.”

Mahmoud Khalil, a graduate student and the lead negotiator on behalf of Columbia University Apartheid Divest, the student coalition that has organized the encampment, called the deadline “just another intimidation tactic from the university.”

“The university is dealing with this matter as a disciplinary issue, not as a movement to divest from war,” he said.

At noon, about 150 students in the encampment gathered to vote on whether to continue despite the threat. Mr. Khalil, one of the speakers who addressed the students, compared the university’s notice to a similar one last week to clear the camp that was later postponed by Columbia to give more time for negotiations.

“We shouldn’t stop here because the people in Gaza are under bombs, and here we are under disciplinary charges,” he told the group.

these university protests and the knee-jerk reactions they've provoked from university admin are really a fascinating example of how to make a protest movement grow.

protests are like fire: they only keep going if they have enough oxygen (attention and willngness to participate), and only grow if you fan them. if the universities had simply let them go without incident, they would have petered out - its exam period coming up and graduation, and people would have drifted away from them naturally. sending in the cops to try (and fail) to break them up generates a great gust of new oxygen for the protests, and radicalizes people like the professor who got slammed to the ground and arrested for reacting with shock to a violet arrest of a student protestor.

it also exposes the university to far more of a political hazard and pressure than they would have normally. an encampment of students on a lawn has no real leverage over the university to force it to do things like divest from Israeli companies or those supporting the war effort. a protest movement that is subject to violent, on camera suppression brings an inordinate amount of attention from outside the university, and generates political pressure as the university's actions suddenly become a battlefront in an already contentious political landscape.

there is no move that the university can take here that will make it look good other than surrender, and this fact will get worse as more and more footage of the suppression gets out. the images regular people remember from social media or the news will not be alleged antisemitic chants or signs, it'll be kids that look like their own getting hauled away bloodied by police officers.

[Zurkerx]

Blinken urges Hamas to accept ‘extraordinarily generous’ Israeli ceasefire deal

It's certainly a generous offer, but it remains to be seen whether Hamas takes it or Israel upholds it. Given the circumstances, I can see Hamas at least entertaining it, if not accepting it.

[Theodorable]

[box]Deadline Passes but Students at Columbia Encampment Have Not Dispersed (New York Times)

Police should take action to disperse them.

Should students have been allowed to protest the Vietnam War?

[Big Eyed Animation]

Deadline Passes but Students at Columbia Encampment Have Not Dispersed (New York Times)
University officials gave the pro-Palestinian demonstrators a 2 p.m. deadline and threatened to suspend them if they did not leave.

Hundreds of pro-Palestinian demonstrators marched around the protest encampment at Columbia University on Monday as a deadline set by the university to clear its central lawn passed and students inside had not dispersed.

Columbia had given students until 2 p.m. to clear out from the encampment, warning them that they would face immediate suspension if they did not leave by then.

There was no visible presence of New York Police Department officers and no immediate sign that university public safety officers were moving in. But it remained unclear how the school would follow through on enforcing its deadline.

There were about 80 tents and there appeared to be roughly 60 protesters left in the encampment at around 2 p.m. The campus was also thronged with media.

Elga Castro, 47, an adjunct professor in the Spanish department at Barnard College, Columbia’s sister school, stood with other faculty and staff members, guarding access to the tents. She said she was there not because of her views, but because of her desire to protect her students’ abilities to protest. “I have my opinions on Gaza and Palestine, but I am mainly here to protect my students,” she said.

Ms Castro said she had not received any word from Columbia about whether faculty participating in the protest would face censure.

Frances Anderson, 19, an engineering student, said she found the protests inspiring but was sitting them out because she felt that the students’ message was being distorted by outside influences. She said the demonstrations had taken on a hostile tone in recent days that felt out of step with their goals of peace. “I’m very impressed by the people who are able to give up their school life for what they believe in,” she said. “The right to protest is fundamental to the American experience. But now the anger is on all sides.”

Amid the confusion, university administrators received a letter on Monday from 21 members of Congress, expressing frustration that the encampment had not already been dismantled. “As a result of this disruption on campus, supported by some faculty members, many students have been prevented from safely attending class, the main library, and from leaving their dorm rooms,” the letter said.

The university’s order to clear the encampment appeared be to an attempt to clear the area without calling in the Police Department, whose intervention on April 18 at the request of Columbia administrators led to more than 100 student arrests and incited an international movement to build similar encampments on dozens of university and college campuses.
Students in the encampment on Monday morning received a notice from administrators stating that negotiations with student protest leaders were at an impasse. It urged the students to clear out voluntarily to allow the school to prepare the lawn for graduation ceremonies on May 15.

“The current unauthorized encampment and disruption on Columbia University’s campus is creating an unwelcoming environment for members of our community,” the notice stated. “Please promptly gather your belongings and leave the encampment.”

Students will be not be punished for their participation in the encampment if they sign a form promising not to break any university rules through the end of the next academic year. Students in the encampment who already face discipline from previous violations, but who are there anyway, may not be eligible for the same deal, the document stated.

The notice also warned students that they might still be held accountable for discrimination and harassment charges stemming from their involvement in the encampment even if they did sign the form.
For those who do not leave, it was not immediately apparent how Columbia would enforce the clearing of the encampment. Last Friday, Nemat Shafik, Columbia’s president, in a statement to the community, all but ruled out calling in the Police Department again to clear the space.

“We called on N.Y.P.D. to clear an encampment once,” she wrote, in a notice co-signed by the co-chairs of Columbia’s board of trustees, “but we all share the view, based on discussions within our community and with outside experts, that to bring back the N.Y.P.D. at this time would be counterproductive, further inflaming what is happening on campus, and drawing thousands to our doorstep who would threaten our community.”

Mahmoud Khalil, a graduate student and the lead negotiator on behalf of Columbia University Apartheid Divest, the student coalition that has organized the encampment, called the deadline “just another intimidation tactic from the university.”

“The university is dealing with this matter as a disciplinary issue, not as a movement to divest from war,” he said.

At noon, about 150 students in the encampment gathered to vote on whether to continue despite the threat. Mr. Khalil, one of the speakers who addressed the students, compared the university’s notice to a similar one last week to clear the camp that was later postponed by Columbia to give more time for negotiations.

“We shouldn’t stop here because the people in Gaza are under bombs, and here we are under disciplinary charges,” he told the group.

these university protests and the knee-jerk reactions they've provoked from university admin are really a fascinating example of how to make a protest movement grow.

protests are like fire: they only keep going if they have enough oxygen (attention and willngness to participate), and only grow if you fan them. if the universities had simply let them go without incident, they would have petered out - its exam period coming up and graduation, and people would have drifted away from them naturally. sending in the cops to try (and fail) to break them up generates a great gust of new oxygen for the protests, and radicalizes people like the professor who got slammed to the ground and arrested for reacting with shock to a violet arrest of a student protestor.

it also exposes the university to far more of a political hazard and pressure than they would have normally. an encampment of students on a lawn has no real leverage over the university to force it to do things like divest from Israeli companies or those supporting the war effort. a protest movement that is subject to violent, on camera suppression brings an inordinate amount of attention from outside the university, and generates political pressure as the university's actions suddenly become a battlefront in an already contentious political landscape.

there is no move that the university can take here that will make it look good other than surrender, and this fact will get worse as more and more footage of the suppression gets out. the images regular people remember from social media or the news will not be alleged antisemitic chants or signs, it'll be kids that look like their own getting hauled away bloodied by police officers.

I would respectfully disagree as two big university presidents have been removed for having double standards. Allowing people to lay hands and assault Jewish students to keep them from going to class is assault and often, motivated by anti semitism. The reason these protestors have gotten ballsy enough to physically attempt to stop people from going to class is because the universities were weak in enforcing their own rules.

And just going by the protests of Vietnam on college campus across the country, doing nothing actually causes more protestors to show up. Protests aren't just ideological but often a spectacle.

Another primary example and arguably the greatest example was Tiannemen Square. Those protests grew and grew as students really thought they had the possibility of enacting real democratic change in China. This view only increased as the protests were allowed to continue, even when Gorbachev was visiting the premier. At no point was the protests going to Peter out by themselves.

That's why we need a balance where protesting is allowed but depending on various factors, adjustments need to be made. Protesting is great but it stops when assault happens or at the very least the offenders are removed. The same when speech veers into encouraging or supporting acts of violence. The peaceful protestors could easily deal with the troublemakers themselves as well which negates the need for police. Disrupting the learning experience for others should not be tolerated as those people's rights are essentially being trampled on

[Post War America]

[box]Deadline Passes but Students at Columbia Encampment Have Not Dispersed (New York Times)

Police should take action to disperse them.

Ah yes, the Western civilization defender again supporting the use of a heavily militarized police force to destroy a largely peaceful student movement for the crime of calling for divestment in an cryptofascist ethnostate.

[Ineva]

Police should take action to disperse them.

Ah yes, the Western civilization defender again supporting the use of a heavily militarized police force to destroy a largely peaceful student movement for the crime of calling for divestment in an cryptofascist ethnostate.

Cryptofascist, that is a new one.

[Sarduri]

I would respectfully disagree as two big university presidents have been removed for having double standards. Allowing people to lay hands and assault Jewish students to keep them from going to class is assault and often, motivated by anti semitism. The reason these protestors have gotten ballsy enough to physically attempt to stop people from going to class is because the universities were weak in enforcing their own rules.

And just going by the protests of Vietnam on college campus across the country, doing nothing actually causes more protestors to show up. Protests aren't just ideological but often a spectacle.

double standards at what?

Another primary example and arguably the greatest example was Tiannemen Square. Those protests grew and grew as students really thought they had the possibility of enacting real democratic change in China. This view only increased as the protests were allowed to continue, even when Gorbachev was visiting the premier. At no point was the protests going to Peter out by themselves.

wrong. notably, Tiananmen Square was the culmination of a series of student protests through the late 1980s as a response to the economic and social turmoil of marketization. they were enough of a background noise that conservatives in the CCP forced out the popular general secretary Hu Yaobang, who was seen as sympathetic to the protestors. the protests died out in the latter part of the 80s but roared back into life when Hu Yaobang died of a heart attack, which was seen as a consequence of his ouster, and snowballed from there.

That's why we need a balance where protesting is allowed but depending on various factors, adjustments need to be made. Protesting is great but it stops when assault happens or at the very least the offenders are removed. The same when speech veers into encouraging or supporting acts of violence. The peaceful protestors could easily deal with the troublemakers themselves as well which negates the need for police. Disrupting the learning experience for others should not be tolerated as those people's rights are essentially being trampled on

'Disrupting the learning experience for others' is a meaningless bit of nonsense. sitting in a circle singing 'kumbaya' is 'disrupting the learning experience for others' if you're trying to study.

[HISPIDA]

Ah yes, the Western civilization defender again supporting the use of a heavily militarized police force to destroy a largely peaceful student movement for the crime of calling for divestment in an cryptofascist ethnostate.

Cryptofascist, that is a new one.

it really isn't. it's been around since 1963, the term itself dating back to 1937 but not gaining its modern meaning until then.

[Ineva]

Cryptofascist, that is a new one.

it really isn't. it's been around since 1963, the term itself dating back to 1937 but not gaining its modern meaning until then.

I mean to describe Israel.

[Turenia]

Police should take action to disperse them.

Should students have been allowed to protest the Vietnam War?

Yes, but not on their campus if their school/university didn't allow it.

Ah yes, the Western civilization defender

It is defending western civilization. People who condone anti-semitism and support or associate with Islamists are dangerous.

again supporting the use of a heavily militarized police force to destroy

Riot shields, nightsticks, tear gas and stun grenades are regular crowd control equipment.

a largely peaceful student movement for the crime of calling for divestment in an cryptofascist ethnostate.

An anti-semitic movement which supports Islamist terrorist.

[Big Eyed Animation]

Sarduri

1. Double standards as in it's ok to chant "From the river to the sea", when someone from the KKK who screams racist chants of violence and using the N word would.get.immediately expelled, or at least on the most basic level, be cancelled, and rightfully so.

2. I speak of the protest itself not so much the movement. If you go by the movement then by that definition the idea of protesting never really went away. The Tiannemen Square protest itself did not dissolve because the government left them alone, which they did. In your own words it gained strength because there were people in the party sympathetic to the protestors. Long story short, this idea that protests will stop by themselves without any sort of submission to the protestors demands is a flawed argument. The CHOP protests turned into a defacto occupation movement since the government did nothing but cave in to the protestors demands. Pulling back the police only emboldened the protestors.

3. I don't give a shit about people singing kumbayah. I speak of those fuckwits shouting down teachers or guest speakers who say anything they disagree with. If all the pro Palestine protestors did was sing kumbayah, the protests wouldn't really be an issue. Also singing kumbayah isn't against school policy AFAIK but forcefully occupying faculty offices is against school regulations.

[Post War America]

Ah yes, the Western civilization defender

It is defending western civilization. People who condone anti-semitism and support or associate with Islamists are dangerous.

Undermining liberal democratic principles to defend thinly veiled allusions to the White Race are inherently more dangerous to any concept of the West worth saving than any Islamists anywhere currently. And you're openly supporting the former.

again supporting the use of a heavily militarized police force to destroy

Riot shields, nightsticks, tear gas and stun grenades are regular crowd control equipment.

Assault rifles are not however, and militarized training is a well documented aspect of American policing. Almost as well documented as white supremacy actually.

a largely peaceful student movement for the crime of calling for divestment in an cryptofascist ethnostate.

An anti-semitic movement which supports Islamist terrorist.

[/quote]

An "anti-Semetic" movement backed and indeed partially organized by large numbers of Jews, that, for the most part just wants to prevent an actual genocide that is actually happening from a state that claims to be pro-Jewish but run by a Holocaust revisionist with a publicly documented history of employing dubious claims of Anti-Semetism as a smokescreen to shield its atrocious actions.

[Sarduri]

Sarduri

1. Double standards as in it's ok to chant "From the river to the sea", when someone from the KKK who screams racist chants of violence and using the N word would.get.immediately expelled, or at least on the most basic level, be cancelled, and rightfully so.

so your only concern is that one phrase?

2. I speak of the protest itself not so much the movement. If you go by the movement then by that definition the idea of protesting never really went away. The Tiannemen Square protest itself did not dissolve because the government left them alone, which they did. In your own words it gained strength because there were people in the party sympathetic to the protestors. Long story short, this idea that protests will stop by themselves without any sort of submission to the protestors demands is a flawed argument. The CHOP protests turned into a defacto occupation movement since the government did nothing but cave in to the protestors demands. Pulling back the police only emboldened the protestors.

I don't know how to break this to you, but the government really did not 'leave them alone'.

3. I don't give a shit about people singing kumbayah. I speak of those fuckwits shouting down teachers or guest speakers who say anything they disagree with. If all the pro Palestine protestors did was sing kumbayah, the protests wouldn't really be an issue. Also singing kumbayah isn't against school policy AFAIK but forcefully occupying faculty offices is against school regulations.

so 'disrupting other peoples' learning' is not the definition you're actually using. so what definition should we use?

[Europa Undivided]

Ah yes, the Western civilization defender again supporting the use of a heavily militarized police force to destroy a largely peaceful student movement for the crime of calling for divestment in an cryptofascist ethnostate.

Cryptofascist, that is a new one.

Fascism using the power of bitcoin and doge coin?

[Big Eyed Animation]

Sarduri

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ivy-league-a ... 23480.html

1. Any phrase that incites violence is problematic for me. And like the protest in Michigan, it often isn't just from the river to the sea but death to Israel or even worse, death to America

2. The government didn't immediately disperse the crowd which is something an autocratic regime like the PRC usually does as a knee jerk reaction. They were allowed to protest even when Gorbachev arrived in the Capitol. The government made no move to expel foreign journalists covering the protests. By normal standards alone, this is the government taking a hands off approach initially but by the standards of the CPC, it's extraordinarily generous to the protestors.

3. Teachers and guest speakers generally are there to do their job, which is imparting information to anyone who wishes to learn. I speak of mostly in classroom learning but this also extends to lectures outside of the normal classroom time. Same with guest speakers.
Many students often pay money for tickets to see these guest speakers. Some universities have already cancelled graduation events in anticipation of these protests. You can't really learn when protestors form human chains or physically try to stop students from attending classes.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/29/business ... index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us ... rcna149205

[Sarduri]

Sarduri

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ivy-league-a ... 23480.html

1. Any phrase that incites violence is problematic for me. And like the protest in Michigan, it often isn't just from the river to the sea but death to Israel or even worse, death to America

and what litmus test are we using for incitement for violence. or are we just going off of your vibe check of how 'problematic' it is, like some sort of pink haired snowflake canceling a Scorsese movie

2. The government didn't immediately disperse the crowd which is something an autocratic regime like the PRC usually does as a knee jerk reaction. They were allowed to protest even when Gorbachev arrived in the Capitol. The government made no move to expel foreign journalists covering the protests. By normal standards alone, this is the government taking a hands off approach initially but by the standards of the CPC, it's extraordinarily generous to the protestors.

do they usually disperse protests? is that something you know for certain or are just assuming?

3. Teachers and guest speakers generally are there to do their job, which is imparting information to anyone who wishes to learn. I speak of mostly in classroom learning but this also extends to lectures outside of the normal classroom time. Same with guest speakers.
Many students often pay money for tickets to see these guest speakers. Some universities have already cancelled graduation events in anticipation of these protests. You can't really learn when protestors form human chains or physically try to stop students from attending classes.

https://www.cnn.com/2024/02/29/business ... index.html

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/us ... rcna149205

so from what I'm hearing, when student protestors hold teach-ins at the encampment that means they should not be dispersed at any cost. they are, after all, imparting information to anyone who wishes to learn. right?

[Big Eyed Animation]

Sarduri

1. I think I have already stated what I would consider, and what I would think most people would consider, incitement to violence. Death to America isn't exactly vague. Hamas should bomb Tel Aviv or holding a sign saying Hamas should target Jews here is clear incitement to violence. Keep in mind my response is also to my mention of double standards, which you asked me to clarify.

2. Without judgement and looking at the situation just from the parameters that we are discussing, which is government non interference is better at either slowing down or stopping protests. The Tibetan protests or uprising clearly would have spread had the government not responded. Apparently there were armed clashes before the protests around the dalai lhamas residence in other parts of Tibet. The same with the 2008 protests.

3. Again I don't mind anything really as long as it isn't violating school regulations or policies. Who cares what protestors do as long as they don't stop people from going to class or obstructing people from listening to guest speakers. Nothing is stopping the pro Palestine crowd from protesting off private property or otherwise in a location that isn't violating school regulations or policies. There is no reason that pro Palestinians can't protest without also stopping or harassing other students (usually Jewish) from attending classes.

[Phoeniae]

always better for perfectionment to be searched for and applied, in regards to political movements, but meanwhile be also minduful medias and commentators more of a ‘spectacle’ than people gathered.

I mean, if you upkeep strict critical attitude, that is good in itself (myself, I did that same sometimes) still bear in mind it is attended from you to be fair for where are faults of sociey at rule, similarly.

(..I saw great movie ‘oppenheimer’ and I ask myself, how far the sort out here of that movie has aided in nurture the ‘aknowledged protestor’ -has cinema got weight in people attitude, nowadays?)

[Big Eyed Animation]

always better for perfectionment to be searched for and applied, in regards to political movements, but meanwhile be also minduful medias and commentators more of a ‘spectacle’ than people gathered.

I mean, if you upkeep strict critical attitude, that is good in itself (myself, I did that same sometimes) still bear in mind it is attended from you to be fair for where are faults of sociey at rule, similarly.

(..I saw great movie ‘oppenheimer’ and I ask myself, how far the sort out here of that movie has aided in nurture the ‘aknowledged protestor’ -has cinema got weight in people attitude, nowadays?)

I dunno if I understand you completely but I understand the media has a tendency to only focus on the worst aspects of anything because it gets higher ratings.

However, regardless of whether media focuses on it or not, there are some things that shouldn't be done like inciting violence. I would feel the same way about pro Israel protestors who want to massacre all the Arab Palestinians.

[Sarduri]

Sarduri

1. I think I have already stated what I would consider, and what I would think most people would consider, incitement to violence. Death to America isn't exactly vague. Hamas should bomb Tel Aviv or holding a sign saying Hamas should target Jews here is clear incitement to violence. Keep in mind my response is also to my mention of double standards, which you asked me to clarify.

this was meant to be your opportunity to show us the same level of half-googled insight that brought us 'the Balkans plan' as a solution to the war, but since you missed I'll lay it out plainly: US free speech law has very, very broad protections about inflammatory speech that would almost certainly shake out in a court to mean that 'from the river to the sea, Palestine will be free' is not 'incitement to violence' that is imminent enough to be prosecutable. that means that for most public universities their ability to prosecute such speech is limited.

and as for private universities, we are of course looking at a situation where the conservative movement was hoisted by their own petard:

Purdue University has become the first public institution of higher education to adopt a free speech policy called the "Chicago principles," condemning the suppression of views no matter how "offensive, unwise, immoral, or wrong-headed" they may be.

The board of trustees passed a measure endorsing those principles on Friday. Purdue President Mitch Daniels plans to address some of the same points in his remarks at the Indiana university's commencement ceremony this weekend.

The Chicago principles were crafted and approved at the University of Chicago in January and has since been adopted by the faculty at Princeton University.

these principles were of course meant originally to safeguard against heterodox conservative voices getting canceled, but they apply equally well to 'from the river to the sea'. some 88 private universities have signed on to the Chicago principles, including Columbia, for example.

2. Without judgement and looking at the situation just from the parameters that we are discussing, which is government non interference is better at either slowing down or stopping protests. The Tibetan protests or uprising clearly would have spread had the government not responded. Apparently there were armed clashes before the protests around the dalai lhamas residence in other parts of Tibet. The same with the 2008 protests.

how much overlap do you think there was in people within the Chinese government between 2008 and 1989

3. Again I don't mind anything really as long as it isn't violating school regulations or policies. Who cares what protestors do as long as they don't stop people from going to class or obstructing people from listening to guest speakers. Nothing is stopping the pro Palestine crowd from protesting off private property or otherwise in a location that isn't violating school regulations or policies. There is no reason that pro Palestinians can't protest without also stopping or harassing other students (usually Jewish) from attending classes.

and of course the protests, such as they are, are not violating university policies beyond such things like trespassing.

[Big Eyed Animation]

Sarduri

1. I pretty much said my plan was similar but not exactly as the Balkans Plan. Before even the first mention of the Balkans Plan I had said that the best way for a TSS to occur is for the international community to hold both sides to account for any breaking of the peace after the creation of the Palestinian state. I also mentioned that a neutral third-party like UN peacekeepers would be needed as security forces from both sides have clear conflicts of interest I am not and never had the intention to convince you or others like you on the pro Palestine side and I don't really worry about whether you think my arguments are half assed or not. Our discussions were always meant for those who are still on the fence trying to decide who could make a better argument.

As to freedom of speech, prosecutable doesn't equate to whether a law has been broken or not. This isn't the first time universities have turned a blind eye to anti semitism and more by denying "From the river to the sea" is anti semitic or that it's incitement of violence. You also conveniently ignore my links where the pro Palestine crowd have clearly supported and even encouraged Hamas to kill more people, whether they be Israeli or even American citizens.

2. I don't care which personnel were in the government. That wasn't even the debate. The debate was whether government inaction would help a protest peter out faster and I gave multiple examples like the CHOP and Tibet where government inaction didn't diminish the protests in the least. I would like to think that most folks who are reading this thread understand that a protest that has a demand, is not going away without getting that demand or at the very least, some kind of compromise. Any kind of inaction on the part of the entity being protested against, is just seen as stalling by said entity. This hasn't led to the protestors leaving or giving up but doubling down.

3. Even if you disagree about the incitement of violence, which I said has happened, rules HAVE been broken. I am surprised you even bothered to admit that they were doing anything wrong like trespassing.

[Anarcopia]

Sarduri

1. Double standards as in it's ok to chant "From the river to the sea", when someone from the KKK who screams racist chants of violence and using the N word would.get.immediately expelled, or at least on the most basic level, be cancelled, and rightfully so.

There is no need for hypotheticals or false equivalencies, we have very real comparisons that you can use as an example for your double standards.

One the one hand: In the US, UK, Germany I've seen countless videos from live streams of violent riot police beat up and arrest protestors for yelling for an independent Palestine (from the river to the sea), for wearing a keffiyeh or holding the Palestinian flag.

On the other side: Zionists brandish Israel flags, call for the death of Palestinians + Muslims and regularly chant "From the river to the sea, Palestine will never be". The violent riot police protect them and only focus on the opposition to their policies and beliefs.

Also from the Trump days I seem to remember kkk marches with tiki torches taking place and these racists also being protected by the riot police rather than arrested and beaten up.

[Anarcopia]

Sarduri

https://www.yahoo.com/news/ivy-league-a ... 23480.html

1. Any phrase that incites violence is problematic for me. And like the protest in Michigan, it often isn't just from the river to the sea but death to Israel or even worse, death to America

and what litmus test are we using for incitement for violence. or are we just going off of your vibe check of how 'problematic' it is, like some sort of pink haired snowflake canceling a Scorsese movie

To be fair it does pass both the white-privilege, and colonialist-oppression litmus tests with flying colors.

[Big Eyed Animation]

Sarduri

1. Double standards as in it's ok to chant "From the river to the sea", when someone from the KKK who screams racist chants of violence and using the N word would.get.immediately expelled, or at least on the most basic level, be cancelled, and rightfully so.

There is no need for hypotheticals or false equivalencies, we have very real comparisons that you can use as an example for your double standards.

One the one hand: In the US, UK, Germany I've seen countless videos from live streams of violent riot police beat up and arrest protestors for yelling for an independent Palestine (from the river to the sea), for wearing a keffiyeh or holding the Palestinian flag.

On the other side: Zionists brandish Israel flags, call for the death of Palestinians + Muslims and regularly chant "From the river to the sea, Palestine will never be". The violent riot police protect them and only focus on the opposition to their policies and beliefs.

Also from the Trump days I seem to remember kkk marches with tiki torches taking place and these racists also being protected by the riot police rather than arrested and beaten up.

It's not a hypothetical when I posted links describing Jewish students among others being assaulted for just going to class. The same with people being blocked from attending events that disagree with the pro Palestine crowd. The double standard was in regards to universities and how they treat protestors differently depending on if they are on the left or the right.

Also we're any of these.pro Palestinian protestors you mention trespassing or otherwise going against university campus regulations?

AFAIK, the Unite The Right rally you.mentioned in Charlottesville was not on any university grounds. If they were the university would have certainly revoked their ability to rally and called in the police.

[Turenia]

Undermining liberal democratic principles to defend thinly veiled allusions to the White Race are inherently more dangerous to any concept of the West worth saving than any Islamists anywhere currently. And you're openly supporting the former.

No, I'm not. I'm supporting the dispersion of an extremist demonstration.

Assault rifles are not however,

Call me when cops start firing at this demonstration with assault rifles.

and militarized training is a well documented aspect of American policing.

Right. But crowd control equipment like I've listed is not "militarized".

Almost as well documented as white supremacy actually.

Is this relevant? No? Ok.

An "anti-Semetic" movement backed and indeed partially organized by large numbers of Jews, that, for the most part just wants to prevent an actual genocide that is actually happening from a state that claims to be pro-Jewish but run by a Holocaust revisionist with a publicly documented history of employing dubious claims of Anti-Semetism as a smokescreen to shield its atrocious actions.

Irrelevant tripe combined with false accusations of genocide. Yawn.