Late 2023 Israel-Hamas Conflict, Thread 2 of ?

[Philistea]

The 2nd siege of Al-Shifa hospital has ended after 2 weeks. The complex suffered major damage and there are dozens of corpses left lying around.

Not dozens but hundreds. Field executions, bulldozers running over people still alive, total decimation of the hospital and its medical equipment. The most cruel war crime in the last 80 years.

Yet we have this pieces of trash telling us that this is Hamas' fault and that It isn't a genocide.

Since these failures of human beings justify all of this and 6 months in still try to explain why the genocide is inevitable at every single post:

There's nothing else that can stop this madness, and they don't deserve less than an international military operation against them, an invasion. A deadly one.

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

There's no point answering Fahran anymore, clear Hasbara.

I may be the only writer of Hasbara in the world who routinely accuses the IDF of committing heinous war crimes and calls for sanctions against Israeli government officials. The distinction between me and most other critics of Israel in this thread is that I'm not an Anti-Zionist. And an Anti-Zionist Jew is essentially comparable to Candace Owens or an Arab who opposes the existence of Palestine.

If a Jewish person were to say "I think it was a bad idea to found a Jewish state in the levant, and I favour a one-state solution that is neither explicitly Arab nor explicitly Jewish." Would that Jewish person be comparable to Candace Owens?

[Empire of Lettuce]

The 2nd siege of Al-Shifa hospital has ended after 2 weeks. The complex suffered major damage and there are dozens of corpses left lying around.

Not dozens but hundreds. Field executions, bulldozers running over people still alive, total decimation of the hospital and its medical equipment. The most cruel war crime in the last 80 years.

Yet we have this pieces of trash telling us that this is Hamas' fault and that It isn't a genocide.

Since these failures of human beings justify all of this and 6 months in still try to explain why the genocide is inevitable at every single post:

There's nothing else that can stop this madness, and they don't deserve less than an international military operation against them, an invasion. A deadly one.

That's exactly what Palestine does as well.

[Vassenor]

There's no point answering Fahran anymore, clear Hasbara.

I may be the only writer of Hasbara in the world who routinely accuses the IDF of committing heinous war crimes and calls for sanctions against Israeli government officials. The distinction between me and most other critics of Israel in this thread is that I'm not an Anti-Zionist. And an Anti-Zionist Jew is essentially comparable to Candace Owens or an Arab who opposes the existence of Palestine.

Reminder that insisting that Jewish people must be loyal to Israel is itself anti-semitism.

[Port Carverton]

I may be the only writer of Hasbara in the world who routinely accuses the IDF of committing heinous war crimes and calls for sanctions against Israeli government officials. The distinction between me and most other critics of Israel in this thread is that I'm not an Anti-Zionist. And an Anti-Zionist Jew is essentially comparable to Candace Owens or an Arab who opposes the existence of Palestine.

If a Jewish person were to say "I think it was a bad idea to found a Jewish state in the levant, and I favour a one-state solution that is neither explicitly Arab nor explicitly Jewish." Would that Jewish person be comparable to Candace Owens?

I'm fairly sure Fahran is referring to groups that want Jews to go back to Europe instead of remaining in the Levant, one of these groups getting religious sanctions for agreeing with Shia holocaust deniers according to one of Fahran's posts if I remember correctly.

Anyway, seeing how race relations are in the area right now, a civil war followed by concentration camps would very likely be the outcome of a one-state solution

[Ineva]

I may be the only writer of Hasbara in the world who routinely accuses the IDF of committing heinous war crimes and calls for sanctions against Israeli government officials. The distinction between me and most other critics of Israel in this thread is that I'm not an Anti-Zionist. And an Anti-Zionist Jew is essentially comparable to Candace Owens or an Arab who opposes the existence of Palestine.

Reminder that insisting that Jewish people must be loyal to Israel is itself anti-semitism.

It is unnecessary and incorrect to persistently claim there is not a Jewish connection and loyalty to Israel. I appreciate you telling us what you think is anti-Jew, but we'll take it from here.

[Fahran]

Not dozens but hundreds. Field executions, bulldozers running over people still alive, total decimation of the hospital and its medical equipment. The most cruel war crime in the last 80 years.

Israel absolutely committed multiple war crimes throughout the First and Second Siege of Al-Shifa. Cutting off the electricity that powered equipment was a war crime. Striking multiple hospital wings with artillery or bombs, in blatant disregard for the safety of patients, was a war crime. Shooting at civilians who attempted to exit the hospital complex was a war crime. Executing militants operating in the hospital extrajudicially after they had surrendered war a war crime. And I could go on.

Is it the most cruel war crime in the last 80 years? Probably not. We've had a lot of war crimes, even in the current conflict, that were probably worse in terms of the number of people impacted and the cruelty imposed upon them.

Yet we have this pieces of trash telling us that this is Hamas' fault and that It isn't a genocide.

Hamas isn't to blame for the IDF's war crimes. They are to blame for making the hospital complex a warzone and, probably, for at least one of the artillery or bombs strikes that killed Palestinian civilians. Both of these acts would constitute war crimes. I have a sneaking suspicion they may have committed perfidy as well given the difficulty in distinguishing who among the 200 casualties was and wasn't a militant. It's probable the IDF and Hamas are both lying about the exact ratio and Hamas has confirmed that at least some accounts were fabrications on the part of Palestinians present intended to exaggerate the IDF's brutality. Mind you, the humanitarian situation at Al-Shifa was bleak throughout most of March.

Since these failures of human beings justify all of this and 6 months in still try to explain why the genocide is inevitable at every single post:

There's nothing else that can stop this madness, and they don't deserve less than an international military operation against them, an invasion. A deadly one.

I'm somehow not surprised that your solution is to kill Israelis.

[Fahran]

If a Jewish person were to say "I think it was a bad idea to found a Jewish state in the levant, and I favour a one-state solution that is neither explicitly Arab nor explicitly Jewish." Would that Jewish person be comparable to Candace Owens?

In 1910? No. They might well have been a Bundist who wanted to establish Jewish autonomy in the Russian Empire. In 2024, after a Jewish state already exists? Yes. It's entirely akin to a Palestinians opposing the existence of an independent Palestine or Candace Owens arguing against movements like BLM. Zionism is the sole surviving Jewish nationalist movement. The Gentiles killed the other ones.

[Fahran]

Reminder that insisting that Jewish people must be loyal to Israel is itself anti-semitism.

Jewish people do not have to be Zionists. Just as black people do not have to support the Voting Rights Act, trans people can be upset about Easter falling on TDOV, and indigenous people do not have to support treaty rights. Is it contrary to the collective interests of the group they belong to? Absolutely.

And let's be honest. The number of protests in front of synagogues is a pretty big indication that the bulk of committed Anti-Zionists, most of whom are Arab nationalists or Islamists, do not make a distinction between Jews living in Diaspora and the Israeli government.

[Philistea]

Reminder that insisting that Jewish people must be loyal to Israel is itself anti-semitism.

Jewish people do not have to be Zionists. Just as black people do not have to support the Voting Rights Act and indigenous people do not have to support treaty rights.

Supporting voting rights is not the same as supporting invasion, colonization and genocide for own gain.

[Philistea]

If a Jewish person were to say "I think it was a bad idea to found a Jewish state in the levant, and I favour a one-state solution that is neither explicitly Arab nor explicitly Jewish." Would that Jewish person be comparable to Candace Owens?

In 1910? No. They might well have been a Bundist who wanted to establish Jewish autonomy in the Russian Empire. In 2024, after a Jewish state already exists? Yes. It's entirely akin to a Palestinians opposing the existence of an independent Palestine or Candace Owens arguing against movements like BLM. Zionism is the sole surviving Jewish nationalist movement. The Gentiles killed the other ones.

lmao lying through your teeth, the zionists killed the other Jewish nationalist movements

[Western Theram]

Nothing like the birthplace of Jesus getting carpet bombed

[Fahran]

lmao lying through your teeth, the zionists killed the other Jewish nationalist movements

Bundism, the largest alternative to Zionism, was actively suppressed by Lenin and the Bolsheviks and the Nazis completely destroyed the movement when they killed 42% of the global Jewish population. The vast majority of the surviving Bundists became Zionists, having seen the writing on the wall. A number of them became assimilationists and got to experience discrimination in the USSR under Brezhnev, supposing they weren't disappeared by Stalin. The rest were so inconsequential that they ceased to have an impact on politics in the diaspora in a serious way after 1950.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Reporting and photos are starting to circulate claiming that Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus. The IDF is doing very normal things.

[Port Carverton]

Reporting and photos are starting to circulate claiming that Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus. The IDF is doing very normal things.

What are the chances of war after this event between the countries?

[Fahran]

Supporting voting rights is not the same as supporting invasion, colonization and genocide for own gain.

You support all of those things in the present day. I'm a touch exhausted with defending the moderate solution, one endorsed by the UN and the broader international community, against maximalists who want to engage in ethnic cleansing.

[Europa Undivided]

Nothing like the birthplace of Jesus getting carpet bombed

Since when was Bethlehem in the Gaza Strip?

[The Xenopolis Confederation]

If a Jewish person were to say "I think it was a bad idea to found a Jewish state in the levant, and I favour a one-state solution that is neither explicitly Arab nor explicitly Jewish." Would that Jewish person be comparable to Candace Owens?

In 1910? No. They might well have been a Bundist who wanted to establish Jewish autonomy in the Russian Empire. In 2024, after a Jewish state already exists? Yes. It's entirely akin to a Palestinians opposing the existence of an independent Palestine or Candace Owens arguing against movements like BLM. Zionism is the sole surviving Jewish nationalist movement. The Gentiles killed the other ones.

Must a Jewish person be a Jewish Nationalist in order to avoid being a "Candace Owens?" Where does that leave you if you oppose ethnic and/or religious nationalism of all kinds?

[Fahran]

Reporting and photos are starting to circulate claiming that Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus. The IDF is doing very normal things.

I've read there was a strike on a building near the Iranian embassy. Presumably, it'll wind up being related to the ongoing escalation between Israel and Hezbollah.

[Fahran]

Must a Jewish person be a Jewish Nationalist in order to avoid being a "Candace Owens?" Where does that leave you if you oppose ethnic and/or religious nationalism of all kinds?

Given what the abolition of Israel would mean to Jewish people living there? Yes, a Jewish person would need to be a Jewish nationalist to avoid being akin to Candance Owens. And a big element of Candance Owens's political ideology is the sort of color-blindness that often serves to minimize the efforts of minority groups to demand collective rights and protections. It's not really coincidental that the Jewish people who have historically opposed both Bundism and Zionism tended to be outright assimilationists who thought we could fix Antisemitism by ceasing to exist or becoming Gentile enough that Antisemites would stop pestering us.

Just going to point out the obvious here. My stubborn Zionism is largely rooted in not wanting to see about half my people ethnically cleansed or subjected to a genocide by folks who have repeatedly expressed that this would be their ideal political outcome. I also do not want Jews living in the Middle East to be reduced to the status of the Kurds, Imazighen, Assyrians, or Armenians. These are completely reasonable things to want to avoid.

[Oceasia]

An alleged Israeli airstrike hit the surroundings of the Iranian embassy in Damascus, Syria. It might've targeted and killed an IRGC official. I'm guessing Iran will respond to this by bombing random Kurdish targets in Iraq and Syria.

[Ifreann]

No one blamed anyone for anything. You asked if the IDF are operating in a hospital and I told you that yes, they are, they said so themselves. If you read that as assigning blame to the IDF then that is coming entirely from you.

Operating in Al-Shifa because you caught Hamas operating inside Al-Shifa and are trying to prevent them from continuing to operate inside Al-Shifa isn't really the same thing as brazenly violating the Geneva Conventions in the first place - which is what we were discussing. You appear to still be in denial about Hamas doing that and drawing a false equivalence to obscure what you're doing here doesn't really change that.

You asked if the IDF was operating in a hospital. I told you that they were, and had said so themselves. No after the fact invocation of the well known "But They Did It First!" clause of the Geneva Conventions or any other argument on your part that it's acceptable or legal or in some way different for the IDF to operate in a hospital constitutes a denial of Hamas war crimes on my part. This is just ridiculous.

Whether Hamas commits war crimes is not a matter in contention. This attempt to twist things to create the impression that I am denying Hamas war crimes is grossly dishonest of you when I explicitly did exactly that.

You have repeatedly denied that Hamas was operating within hospitals in violation of the Geneva Conventions. The article Sarduri posted earlier and the Second Siege of Al-Shifa, where multiple militants were killed near or inside a hospital complex, are pretty ample evidence that Hamas was and is operating out of hospitals and other civilian structures in violation of international law. It's a specific claim and we have evidence for it. So are you still going to claim that Hamas isn't doing that?

I have never claimed anything of the sort. This is all just an overlong version of shouting "You love Hamas!" at me. You might try to dress it up in more sophisticated language, but that's all there is here.

[Fartsniffage]

Reporting and photos are starting to circulate claiming that Israel bombed the Iranian embassy in Damascus. The IDF is doing very normal things.

What are the chances of war after this event between the countries?

Zero. How do they get to each other?

[Fahran]

You asked if the IDF was operating in a hospital. I told you that they were, and had said so themselves. No after the fact invocation of the well known "But They Did It First!" clause of the Geneva Conventions or any other argument on your part that it's acceptable or legal or in some way different for the IDF to operate in a hospital constitutes a denial of Hamas war crimes on my part. This is just ridiculous.

I asked that question in the context of you pointing out that the IDF has military installations next to a hospital. You were attempting to create a false equivalency here by alleging that the IDF conducted military operations inside of hospitals and thus there was nothing particularly unique or illegal in Hamas doing it too. The problem is that the IDF doesn't do that.

The fact of the matter is that Hamas operating out of hospitals completely justifies both targeting the militants operating in those hospitals and occupying the hospital to ensure that they do not set up camp there again. Israel absolutely committed a laundry list of war crimes while raiding and occupying Al-Shifa, but they did not engage in the particular crime we're discussing. Hamas did. Something you continue trying to either deny or distract from by creating false equivalencies.

And, yes, you doing that is pretty ridiculous.

I have never claimed anything of the sort. This is all just an overlong version of shouting "You love Hamas!" at me. You might try to dress it up in more sophisticated language, but that's all there is here.

"For once" they were hiding in a hospital.

Yeah, apart from all the other times that they have.

Yes, yes, we all remember when the IDF found a calendar with the days of the week written on it in Arabic, crystal clear proof that Hamas were using the building as a command centre.

When this is your response to the allegation that Hamas is operating out of hospital complexes in violation of international law, I think it's more than fair to accuse you of denying that Hamas has committed the particular war crime we're discussing.

[Turenia]

Supporting voting rights is not the same as supporting invasion, colonization and genocide for own gain.

You support all of those things in the present day. I'm a touch exhausted with defending the moderate solution, one endorsed by the UN and the broader international community, against maximalists who want to engage in ethnic cleansing.

I don’t know why you do it.

You’re being fair against people who despise the very existence of Israel and want to exterminate it.