A 2nd Yom Kippur War? Hamas fighters launch surprise attack

[Tarsonis]

i think the saddest part is that israel was so close to retreating to the 1948 borders and declaring a total end to apartheid in palestine. if hamas had just waited one more month, things would've changed forever

Yeah, I know you're normally a shit poster, but that would have been a highly unlikely outcome. The Likuds would have never gone for that.

[Osmauri]

The problem with your argument is that you took a truth (Russia being basically little more than a strange, fascist/corporatist poor man's empire attacking a state that it has historically oppressed) and made it out to be equal to a lie (Israel apparently 'provoking' Hamas, a terrorist group hated by practically the entire world).

Also note that leftists, and people in general, can criticize Israeli government policy and even the response to this crime without a name for being insane, without discounting the fact that an atrocity occurred October 7th, 2023.

What I'm saying is that the western left, traditionally being Pro-Palestine, are also in lockstep with the war in Ukraine being a "war against a colonizing imperial aggressor" and we are seeing this very same excuse being using by Palestine supporters against Israel.

They are the ones conflating Ukraine=Palestie and Russia=Israel.

So, basically summarizing underline,
"People supporting Ukraine are hypocritically supporting Hamas."

Is that a correct assessment? If so, it wasn't very clear from your first post.

[Fahran]

Israel doesn't just mistreat Palestinians. Here's an Israeli news source talking about the forced sterilization of Ethiopian Jews
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/201 ... fb92c30000

Paywalled, and by the Headline alone, I'm about 90% sure that's a loaded article misrepresenting fact.

You just gotta keep lying about it.

Oh, it’s not. This has been known for awhile now. It’s just not terribly relevant to the broader argument that is being made. The Beta Israel, by and large, are religious Zionists who have voted for Shas ever since Ovadia Yosef acknowledged their Jewish identity in accordance with Halacha. Shas was actually in Bibi’s previous government even. The Israeli government and certain Israeli officials are absolutely racist against the Sephardim, Mizrachim, and the Beta Israel. It doesn’t mean we don’t view it as the best available option given what Hamas just did to a lot of people from our Minhag.

[Skovinka]

What I'm saying is that the western left, traditionally being Pro-Palestine, are also in lockstep with the war in Ukraine being a "war against a colonizing imperial aggressor" and we are seeing this very same excuse being using by Palestine supporters against Israel.

They are the ones conflating Ukraine=Palestie and Russia=Israel.

So, basically summarizing underline,
"People supporting Ukraine are hypocritically supporting Hamas."

Is that a correct assessment? If so, it wasn't very clear from your first post.

Yes, that is my point

[Osmauri]

A kinda funny sad thing about this whole mess. A few days before this happened, I was thinking about the most war-ridden regions on earth. And then I had this thought: "You know what area has been really quiet lately? The Middle East." And then this happened.

The Levant realised they hadn't had a war in what, 5 years?

[Osmauri]

So, basically summarizing underline,
"People supporting Ukraine are hypocritically supporting Hamas."

Is that a correct assessment? If so, it wasn't very clear from your first post.

Yes, that is my point

Ah, alright then. I agree, I just couldn't tell that from how you wrote it the first time around.

[Tarsonis]

The problem with your argument is that you took a truth (Russia being basically little more than a strange, fascist/corporatist poor man's empire attacking a state that it has historically oppressed) and made it out to be equal to a lie (Israel apparently 'provoking' Hamas, a terrorist group hated by practically the entire world).

Also note that leftists, and people in general, can criticize Israeli government policy and even the response to this crime without a name for being insane, without discounting the fact that an atrocity occurred October 7th, 2023.

What I'm saying is that the western left, traditionally being Pro-Palestine, are also in lockstep with the war in Ukraine being a "war against a colonizing imperial aggressor" and we are seeing this very same excuse being using by Palestine supporters against Israel.

They are the ones conflating Ukraine=Palestine and Russia=Israel.

Because leftists generally operate on the "oppressor vs opressed" and "colonizer vs colonized" dynamic.

While I think that last dynamic is largely true, not all conflicts are the same. (And frankly siding with the oppressed is usually the morally correct positoon.)The circumstances of the Ukraine / Russian conflict, are radically different from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


It's a mistake to try and compare them at all.

[Vistulange]

Both sides are ultimatley supremacist organizations

The Jews say that they are god's specially chosen people

The Muslims wish to destroy the Infidels and heretics

They were made for eachother, the only thing that will stop this is when one side has cleaned the other out because by their literal holy books and ideology they are mortally oppossed.

Let's be real, Israel is a JEWISH state, regardless of what the media says and they would have zero intention of changing this, just as the Palestinians are not giving up being hard right religious muslims.

The problem is that Israel's a secular state

No, it's not.

[Skovinka]

What I'm saying is that the western left, traditionally being Pro-Palestine, are also in lockstep with the war in Ukraine being a "war against a colonizing imperial aggressor" and we are seeing this very same excuse being using by Palestine supporters against Israel.

They are the ones conflating Ukraine=Palestine and Russia=Israel.

Because leftists generally operate on the "oppressor vs opressed" and "colonizer vs colonized" dynamic.

While I think that last dynamic is largely true, not all conflicts are the same. (And frankly siding with the oppressed is usually the morally correct positoon.)The circumstances of the Ukraine / Russian conflict, are radically different from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


It's a mistake to try and compare them at all.

Welp, tell that to the people screaming slava ukraine one day and then marching for palestine after a terror attack the next.

[Tarsonis]

Paywalled, and by the Headline alone, I'm about 90% sure that's a loaded article misrepresenting fact.

You just gotta keep lying about it.

Oh, it’s not. This has been known for awhile now. It’s just not terribly relevant to the broader argument that is being made. The Beta Israel, by and large, are religious Zionists who have voted for Shas ever since Ovadia Yosef acknowledged their Jewish identity in accordance with Halacha. Shas was actually in Bibi’s previous government even. The Israeli government and certain Israeli officials are absolutely racist against the Sephardim, Mizrachim, and the Beta Israel. It doesn’t mean we don’t view it as the best available option given what Hamas just did to a lot of people from our Minhag.

Oh I have no doubts Israel has the same issues with Racism that every other nation since the existence of time has had.

[Vistulange]

While I think that last dynamic is largely true, not all conflicts are the same. (And frankly siding with the oppressed is usually the morally correct positoon.)The circumstances of the Ukraine / Russian conflict, are radically different from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


It's a mistake to try and compare them at all.

Welp, tell that to the people screaming slava ukraine one day and then marching for palestine after a terror attack the next.

On NSG, the overlap I think is mostly HAMAS-Russia, with "West bad!" being the overarching theme as opposed to supporting "the underdog" or "the oppressed."

[Tarsonis]

While I think that last dynamic is largely true, not all conflicts are the same. (And frankly siding with the oppressed is usually the morally correct positoon.)The circumstances of the Ukraine / Russian conflict, are radically different from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


It's a mistake to try and compare them at all.

Welp, tell that to the people screaming slava ukraine one day and then marching for palestine after a terror attack the next.

They're not mutually exclusive positions. That's my point. You're trying to create an analogue where it doesn't exist. There's no hypocrisy, they're completely different situations.

[Christian Confederation]

A possibility but I am more concerned with the likelihood of Attacks in the US and Europe. The leader of Hamas has called for a International support and Jihad in support of Gaza/ Palestine on Friday the 13th. They probably already have sleeper cells armed and waiting.

Absolutley

They would be stupid to not have planted sleeper agents. Their are PLENTY of foreign Jews and Muslims who have loyalties to Palestine and Israel in the West, we are already seeing tension in major western cities like London.

London, New York, Atlanta, LA, Washington. Any city that's had pro Palestine Protests since this popped off should be on high alert Friday.

[Osmauri]

What I'm saying is that the western left, traditionally being Pro-Palestine, are also in lockstep with the war in Ukraine being a "war against a colonizing imperial aggressor" and we are seeing this very same excuse being using by Palestine supporters against Israel.

They are the ones conflating Ukraine=Palestine and Russia=Israel.

Because leftists generally operate on the "oppressor vs opressed" and "colonizer vs colonized" dynamic.

While I think that last dynamic is largely true, not all conflicts are the same. (And frankly siding with the oppressed is usually the morally correct positoon.)The circumstances of the Ukraine / Russian conflict, are radically different from the Israeli/Palestinian conflict.


It's a mistake to try and compare them at all.

As I already mentioned

The problem is that Israel's a secular state

No, it's not.

What is it then? Jews are an ethnic group just as they are also a religious one. There's a thing called "secular Jews", y'know.
Note: looked it up, it's actually very much an edge case. Technically it's a nominally secular state with significant religious intrusion into it (like the United States kinda).

So you ain't wrong. My bad.

Still doesn't justify what Hamas did obviously.

[Skovinka]

Welp, tell that to the people screaming slava ukraine one day and then marching for palestine after a terror attack the next.

They're not mutually exclusive positions. That's my point. You're trying to create an analogue where it doesn't exist. There's no hypocrisy, they're completely different situations.

It is hypocritical to cry about Democracy and freedom being under threat one day and then turning around and making excuses for what is essentially Palestinian ISIS the next.

Israel was attacked, Israel is a Democratic state

[Saiwana]

Welp, tell that to the people screaming slava ukraine one day and then marching for palestine after a terror attack the next.

The reason for why is easy enough to figure out, they're predominantly foolish/idealistic people who back the underdog in any dispute/conflict regardless of context or circumstances. If Russia were weaker but Ukraine were stronger, they'd back Russia. They're only opposing Israel because they have the superior weaponry and economy and use complaints about colonialism as window dressing to say that Hamas cause is more righteous or correct.

[Skovinka]

Absolutley

They would be stupid to not have planted sleeper agents. Their are PLENTY of foreign Jews and Muslims who have loyalties to Palestine and Israel in the West, we are already seeing tension in major western cities like London.

London, New York, Atlanta, LA, Washington. Any city that's had pro Palestine Protests since this popped off should be on high alert Friday.

Western nations are not worried about Jewish terror attacks they are worried about Islamist ones. Western government back Israel so the worry is Islamic radicals in western nations will do something stupid and to be honest I fully expect their to be some terror attacks.

[Osmauri]

Welp, tell that to the people screaming slava ukraine one day and then marching for palestine after a terror attack the next.

The reason for why is easy enough to figure out, they're predominantly foolish/idealistic people who back the underdog in any dispute/conflict regardless of context or circumstances. If Russia were weaker but Ukraine were stronger, they'd back Russia. They're only opposing Israel because they have the superior weaponry and economy and use complaints about colonialism as window dressing to say that Hamas cause is more righteous or correct.

It's also a lot of "West bad!!!!!11!!1!!" in the decision-making, mate.

Otherwise they'd be supporting Taiwan.

[Tarsonis]

They're not mutually exclusive positions. That's my point. You're trying to create an analogue where it doesn't exist. There's no hypocrisy, they're completely different situations.

It is hypocritical to cry about Democracy and freedom being under threat one day and then turning around and making excuses for what is essentially Palestinian ISIS the next.

Israel was attacked, Israel is a Democratic state

That doesn't mean you side with Democratic states who are actually doing wrong things. That's how the West fucked up the Middle East in the first place, and fucked up vietnam, and shit what didn't they fuck up that way.

You're taking a very reductionist approach to this, when the reality is it's much more complicated.

[Skovinka]

Welp, tell that to the people screaming slava ukraine one day and then marching for palestine after a terror attack the next.

The reason for why is easy enough to figure out, they're predominantly foolish/idealistic people who back the underdog in any dispute/conflict regardless of context or circumstances. If Russia were weaker but Ukraine were stronger, they'd back Russia. They're only opposing Israel because they have the superior weaponry and economy and use complaints about colonialism as window dressing to say that Hamas cause is more righteous or correct.

I agree

[Tarsonis]

The reason for why is easy enough to figure out, they're predominantly foolish/idealistic people who back the underdog in any dispute/conflict regardless of context or circumstances. If Russia were weaker but Ukraine were stronger, they'd back Russia. They're only opposing Israel because they have the superior weaponry and economy and use complaints about colonialism as window dressing to say that Hamas cause is more righteous or correct.

I agree

Siding with a Nazi should give you pause.

[Bradfordville]

Absolutley

They would be stupid to not have planted sleeper agents. Their are PLENTY of foreign Jews and Muslims who have loyalties to Palestine and Israel in the West, we are already seeing tension in major western cities like London.

London, New York, Atlanta, LA, Washington. Any city that's had pro Palestine Protests since this popped off should be on high alert Friday.

Sounds like fear mongering.

[Skovinka]

I agree

Siding with a Nazi should give you pause.

Truth is truth

[Skovinka]

Leftists will side with Banderite Nazis and ISIS HAMAS and then talk about democracy and human rights.

[Second Dimetrodon Empire]

[Deleted]