Israel attacks Aid workers (Israel megathred)

[Al-Shareef]

Well, Israel has fucked up, and fucked up badly. Not only a PR disaster of epic proportions, not only serious breaches of international law, but a complete diplomatic failure and yet another blow against relations with Turkey and the US.

Israel is failing the propaganda war, even with (or maybe because of) a complete information blackout. So well done them.

Thats true. Turkey was Israelis only muslim ally and now they F**ked that up too. The turks were also pissed since the ship in lead was a turkish ship. I've heard Israel warned its people not to go to Turkey and that those in Turkey should keep a low profile. Without Turkey,Israel will be surrounded by people who want to gut them inside out with a rock.

[Juristonia]

Did you.. honestly just imply the people in middle east were just nomadic herders?

Ever see the 1962 classic Lawrence of Arabia? Yes, the middle east was actually that pathetic until they realized they were sitting on liquid gold.[/quote]


I thought you had me on ignore.
Also, you're so beyond clueless on the history of the region it is absolutely mind boggling.
The middle east had a very rich culture and civilisation when we were all still sitting around in our own feces.
The place didn't go to hell until WW1.[/quote]
Rich culture or not, still third world by western standards.[/quote]

Except that there was no western standard yet since we were barely able to start a fire while they already advancing to literature and inventing things like the wheel.
Seriously, read a book. The middle east brought us some of the first advanced civilisations in the history of our species.

[MisanthropicPopulism]

I would much rather that the jews didn't have this speck of land, due to since having this piece of land, middle eastern terrorism has shot through the roof. Ever since the creation of this small and minute country after wwii, the middle east has become a hot spot that gets worse and worse every year.
Quite frankly, middle eastern politics would be greatly simplified if israel were turned into 1) a glass crater 2) a completely palestian state (they were there first. period.) 3) a UN controlled terrority that belongs to no one.

I support the second option, follow by the first, followed by the third.

Israel didn't make the middle east a hotspot, oil did.

Edit: Once the money runs dry they are back to being nomadic herders.

Did you.. honestly just imply the people in middle east were just nomadic herders?

Ever see the 1962 classic Lawrence of Arabia? Yes, the middle east was actually that pathetic until they realized they were sitting on liquid gold.

1960s Hollywood. Very accurate.

[Minotzia]

I would much rather that the jews didn't have this speck of land, due to since having this piece of land, middle eastern terrorism has shot through the roof. Ever since the creation of this small and minute country after wwii, the middle east has become a hot spot that gets worse and worse every year.
Quite frankly, middle eastern politics would be greatly simplified if israel were turned into 1) a glass crater 2) a completely palestian state (they were there first. period.) 3) a UN controlled terrority that belongs to no one.

I support the second option, follow by the first, followed by the third.

Israel didn't make the middle east a hotspot, oil did.

Edit: Once the money runs dry they are back to being nomadic herders.

Did you.. honestly just imply the people in middle east were just nomadic herders?

Ever see the 1962 classic Lawrence of Arabia? Yes, the middle east was actually that pathetic until they realized they were sitting on liquid gold.

I thought you had me on ignore.
Also, you're so beyond clueless on the history of the region it is absolutely mind boggling.
The middle east had a very rich culture and civilisation when we were all still sitting around in our own feces.
The place didn't go to hell until WW1.

Rich culture or not, still third world by western standards.

Problem is that even before WWI the Ottomans essentially ran their government like a feudal state and never really got rid of the military's control of their executive power. It its true that the overwhelming majority of the people living in the Middle East lived in destitute poverty compared to the West however.

[The Bleeding Roses]

I would much rather that the jews didn't have this speck of land, due to since having this piece of land, middle eastern terrorism has shot through the roof. Ever since the creation of this small and minute country after wwii, the middle east has become a hot spot that gets worse and worse every year.
Quite frankly, middle eastern politics would be greatly simplified if israel were turned into 1) a glass crater 2) a completely palestian state (they were there first. period.) 3) a UN controlled terrority that belongs to no one.

I support the second option, follow by the first, followed by the third.

Israel didn't make the middle east a hotspot, oil did.

Edit: Once the money runs dry they are back to being nomadic herders.

Did you.. honestly just imply the people in middle east were just nomadic herders?

Ever see the 1962 classic Lawrence of Arabia? Yes, the middle east was actually that pathetic until they realized they were sitting on liquid gold.

I thought you had me on ignore.
Also, you're so beyond clueless on the history of the region it is absolutely mind boggling.
The middle east had a very rich culture and civilisation when we were all still sitting around in our own feces.
The place didn't go to hell until WW1.

Rich culture or not, still third world by western standards.

Except that there was no western standard yet since we were barely able to start a fire while they already advancing to literature and inventing things like the wheel.
Seriously, read a book. The middle east brought us some of the first advanced civilisations in the history of our species.

Are you seriously comparing late 1800's ME to the fucking Sumerians?

[Vervaria]

I would much rather that the jews didn't have this speck of land, due to since having this piece of land, middle eastern terrorism has shot through the roof. Ever since the creation of this small and minute country after wwii, the middle east has become a hot spot that gets worse and worse every year.
Quite frankly, middle eastern politics would be greatly simplified if israel were turned into 1) a glass crater 2) a completely palestian state (they were there first. period.) 3) a UN controlled terrority that belongs to no one.

I support the second option, follow by the first, followed by the third.

Israel didn't make the middle east a hotspot, oil did.

Edit: Once the money runs dry they are back to being nomadic herders.

Did you.. honestly just imply the people in middle east were just nomadic herders?

Ever see the 1962 classic Lawrence of Arabia? Yes, the middle east was actually that pathetic until they realized they were sitting on liquid gold.

I thought you had me on ignore.
Also, you're so beyond clueless on the history of the region it is absolutely mind boggling.
The middle east had a very rich culture and civilisation when we were all still sitting around in our own feces.
The place didn't go to hell until WW1.

Rich culture or not, still third world by western standards.

Except that there was no western standard yet since we were barely able to start a fire while they already advancing to literature and inventing things like the wheel.
Seriously, read a book. The middle east brought us some of the first advanced civilisations in the history of our species.

There's no point arguing that line with Parthenon. America>Everyone else, period, no matter what, is a long stated belief of his on this forum.

[Nobel Hobos]

I would much rather that the jews didn't have this speck of land, due to since having this piece of land, middle eastern terrorism has shot through the roof. Ever since the creation of this small and minute country after wwii, the middle east has become a hot spot that gets worse and worse every year.
Quite frankly, middle eastern politics would be greatly simplified if israel were turned into 1) a glass crater 2) a completely palestian state (they were there first. period.) 3) a UN controlled terrority that belongs to no one.

I support the second option, follow by the first, followed by the third.

Israel didn't make the middle east a hotspot, oil did.

Certainly it is foolish to ignore the effect of oil.

The existence of Israel has caused trouble. It's not the only cause of trouble: other arbitrary borders established by ex-colonial powers, for instance.
The money from oil has allowed that trouble to be played out with better weapons, and made the trouble there of more importance to Westerners.

If you were to say it was only oil which caused the trouble, you would have to conclude that the US is a hotbed of trouble, being a country very much built on oil.

Edit: Once the money runs dry they are back to being nomadic herders.

Not all of the Middle East is like Saudi Arabia. There is some arable land, and they're in a good geographical position to trade.

I do think most of the Arab countries spend too much on their militaries and on temporary luxuries (Israel wouldn't have anything to do with that, would it?) but there is some nation-building going on, industry and infrastructure and education. They won't ever go back to being nomadic herders.

[Juristonia]

Are you seriously comparing late 1800's ME to the fucking Sumerians?

Considering we're talking about the history before the area turned to shit, take a wild guess, genius.

[Vervaria]

I would much rather that the jews didn't have this speck of land, due to since having this piece of land, middle eastern terrorism has shot through the roof. Ever since the creation of this small and minute country after wwii, the middle east has become a hot spot that gets worse and worse every year.
Quite frankly, middle eastern politics would be greatly simplified if israel were turned into 1) a glass crater 2) a completely palestian state (they were there first. period.) 3) a UN controlled terrority that belongs to no one.

I support the second option, follow by the first, followed by the third.

Israel didn't make the middle east a hotspot, oil did.

Certainly it is foolish to ignore the effect of oil.

The existence of Israel has caused trouble. It's not the only cause of trouble: other arbitrary borders established by ex-colonial powers, for instance.
The money from oil has allowed that trouble to be played out with better weapons, and made the trouble there of more importance to Westerners.

If you were to say it was only oil which caused the trouble, you would have to conclude that the US is a hotbed of trouble, being a country very much built on oil.

Edit: Once the money runs dry they are back to being nomadic herders.

Not all of the Middle East is like Saudi Arabia. There is some arable land, and they're in a good geographical position to trade.

I do think most of the Arab countries spend too much on their militaries and on temporary luxuries (Israel wouldn't have anything to do with that, would it?) but there is some nation-building going on, industry and infrastructure and education. They won't ever go back to being nomadic herders.

From my admittedly scanty knowledge on the subject, modern day Turkey is quite nice.

[Self--Esteem]

Again: How can people ignore this and still go on in calling those people innocent?

Flotilla Sponsors: European and American Radicals and pro-Hamas Muslims

According to the Free Gaza Web site, "The Freedom Flotilla Coalition is comprised of: Free Gaza Movement (FG), European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), Ship to Gaza Greece, Ship to Gaza Sweden, and the International Committee to Lift the Siege on Gaza, with hundreds of groups and organizations around the world supporting the effort."

•The Free Gaza Movement includes on its Board a number of people involved in the radical ISM, International Solidarity Movement. Huwaida Arraf, Adam Shapiro, Caoimhe Butterly and Ewa Jasiewicz are among these. The ISM supports violence ("armed struggle") against Israel as part of its mission, and specializes in sending foreigners to Palestinian areas to thwart Israeli self-defense measures. Other Free Gaza members are veteran anti-Israel activists, including Greta Berlin from Los Angeles and Dror Feiler from Sweden. Among its Board of Advisors are listed Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Jeff Halper, John Pilger and Jenny Tonge, all biased, virlulent, anti-Israel detractors.

• European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), headed by Dr. Arafat Madi, is a pro-Hamas umbrella group made up of more than 30 pro-Palestinian groups in Europe. Madi himself is the executive director of the Palestine Return Center, based in London which is closely aligned with Hamas.

•Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), or Humanitarian Relief in Turkey, is a Turkish-Muslim group. Bülent Yildirim, IHH chairman, is said to be the driving force behind the flotilla. Israel has outlawed IHH because of its fundraising activity for Hamas and its association with jihadist forces.

According to the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, there is reliable information indicating that in the past IHH had links with global jihad and Islamic terrorist elements in the Middle East. As part of its connections with the global jihad it supported jihadist terrorist networks in Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Chechnya. IHH also served in the past as a cover for Al-Qaeda, acquiring forged documents, enlisting operatives and transferring weapons.

• Ship to Gaza Sweden/Greece is a Swedish initiative led by Dror Feiler and others, involving Swedish radicals in the arts, government and academy, including members of the Communist party. It should be remembered that it was Sweden's Aftonbladet newspaper that ran a libelous story in August 2009 claiming Israel kills Palestinians to harvest organs for trafficking. The story fueled a wave of related anti-Semitic libels throughout the Arab world.

[Comaak]

The hybris of the Israeli state seems to have grown rapidly the last years: the Gaza war, the Eastern Jerusalem-question and now this, three crimes that even the most ideologically convinced pro-israeli douche have a hard time to justify.

Not that it matters for their support in Washington, Bruxelles and such but maybe it will convince some workers that it's just stupid to use the "but the Hamas is just as bad" logic.

[The Bleeding Roses]

Are you seriously comparing late 1800's ME to the fucking Sumerians?

Considering we're talking about the history before the area turned to shit, take a wild guess, genius.

The area has always been a conflict zone, it was exacerbated by the influx of oil money. What the hell point are you trying to make? That in 1000BC they had the same technological level that they did in 1850?

[Self--Esteem]

All I said was that Hamas is a terror organization who does not even care for the good of their own people.

For sure that´s the reason why they were elected by 60 % of their people...

They were elected because they made good promises.

Are you seriously ignoring that they show up on every major terrorist list and that there exist thousands of videos showing them firing rockets?

[Juristonia]

Again: How can people ignore this and still go on in calling those people innocent?

Flotilla Sponsors: European and American Radicals and pro-Hamas Muslims

According to the Free Gaza Web site, "The Freedom Flotilla Coalition is comprised of: Free Gaza Movement (FG), European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), Ship to Gaza Greece, Ship to Gaza Sweden, and the International Committee to Lift the Siege on Gaza, with hundreds of groups and organizations around the world supporting the effort."

•The Free Gaza Movement includes on its Board a number of people involved in the radical ISM, International Solidarity Movement. Huwaida Arraf, Adam Shapiro, Caoimhe Butterly and Ewa Jasiewicz are among these. The ISM supports violence ("armed struggle") against Israel as part of its mission, and specializes in sending foreigners to Palestinian areas to thwart Israeli self-defense measures. Other Free Gaza members are veteran anti-Israel activists, including Greta Berlin from Los Angeles and Dror Feiler from Sweden. Among its Board of Advisors are listed Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Jeff Halper, John Pilger and Jenny Tonge, all biased, virlulent, anti-Israel detractors.

• European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), headed by Dr. Arafat Madi, is a pro-Hamas umbrella group made up of more than 30 pro-Palestinian groups in Europe. Madi himself is the executive director of the Palestine Return Center, based in London which is closely aligned with Hamas.

•Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), or Humanitarian Relief in Turkey, is a Turkish-Muslim group. Bülent Yildirim, IHH chairman, is said to be the driving force behind the flotilla. Israel has outlawed IHH because of its fundraising activity for Hamas and its association with jihadist forces.

According to the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, there is reliable information indicating that in the past IHH had links with global jihad and Islamic terrorist elements in the Middle East. As part of its connections with the global jihad it supported jihadist terrorist networks in Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Chechnya. IHH also served in the past as a cover for Al-Qaeda, acquiring forged documents, enlisting operatives and transferring weapons.

• Ship to Gaza Sweden/Greece is a Swedish initiative led by Dror Feiler and others, involving Swedish radicals in the arts, government and academy, including members of the Communist party. It should be remembered that it was Sweden's Aftonbladet newspaper that ran a libelous story in August 2009 claiming Israel kills Palestinians to harvest organs for trafficking. The story fueled a wave of related anti-Semitic libels throughout the Arab world.

Camera.org? Seriously?
And you say the BBC is too biased.

[Vervaria]

Again: How can people ignore this and still go on in calling those people innocent?

Flotilla Sponsors: European and American Radicals and pro-Hamas Muslims

According to the Free Gaza Web site, "The Freedom Flotilla Coalition is comprised of: Free Gaza Movement (FG), European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), Ship to Gaza Greece, Ship to Gaza Sweden, and the International Committee to Lift the Siege on Gaza, with hundreds of groups and organizations around the world supporting the effort."

•The Free Gaza Movement includes on its Board a number of people involved in the radical ISM, International Solidarity Movement. Huwaida Arraf, Adam Shapiro, Caoimhe Butterly and Ewa Jasiewicz are among these. The ISM supports violence ("armed struggle") against Israel as part of its mission, and specializes in sending foreigners to Palestinian areas to thwart Israeli self-defense measures. Other Free Gaza members are veteran anti-Israel activists, including Greta Berlin from Los Angeles and Dror Feiler from Sweden. Among its Board of Advisors are listed Noam Chomsky, Naomi Klein, Jeff Halper, John Pilger and Jenny Tonge, all biased, virlulent, anti-Israel detractors.

• European Campaign to End the Siege of Gaza (ECESG), headed by Dr. Arafat Madi, is a pro-Hamas umbrella group made up of more than 30 pro-Palestinian groups in Europe. Madi himself is the executive director of the Palestine Return Center, based in London which is closely aligned with Hamas.

•Insani Yardim Vakfi (IHH), or Humanitarian Relief in Turkey, is a Turkish-Muslim group. Bülent Yildirim, IHH chairman, is said to be the driving force behind the flotilla. Israel has outlawed IHH because of its fundraising activity for Hamas and its association with jihadist forces.

According to the Intelligence and Terrorism Information Center, there is reliable information indicating that in the past IHH had links with global jihad and Islamic terrorist elements in the Middle East. As part of its connections with the global jihad it supported jihadist terrorist networks in Bosnia, Syria, Iraq, Afghanistan and Chechnya. IHH also served in the past as a cover for Al-Qaeda, acquiring forged documents, enlisting operatives and transferring weapons.

• Ship to Gaza Sweden/Greece is a Swedish initiative led by Dror Feiler and others, involving Swedish radicals in the arts, government and academy, including members of the Communist party. It should be remembered that it was Sweden's Aftonbladet newspaper that ran a libelous story in August 2009 claiming Israel kills Palestinians to harvest organs for trafficking. The story fueled a wave of related anti-Semitic libels throughout the Arab world.

Camera.org? Seriously?
And you say the BBC is too biased.

It's only biased if it doesn't condemn all Palestinians as part of the terrorist hivemind.

[Vonners]

I would much rather that the jews didn't have this speck of land, due to since having this piece of land, middle eastern terrorism has shot through the roof. Ever since the creation of this small and minute country after wwii, the middle east has become a hot spot that gets worse and worse every year.
Quite frankly, middle eastern politics would be greatly simplified if israel were turned into 1) a glass crater 2) a completely palestian state (they were there first. period.) 3) a UN controlled terrority that belongs to no one.

I support the second option, follow by the first, followed by the third.

Israel didn't make the middle east a hotspot, oil did.

Edit: Once the money runs dry they are back to being nomadic herders.

yeah...the mid east was such a hotbed of terror and war in the 20's and 30's...

It was...

please...are you seriously comparing minor tribal conflicts to what we have now?

My god, you can't follow a follow an argument worth a damn...

Its the money that made the middle east what it is today...

Nice! thanks for the insult;) Still to be expected I suppose.

Also as expected is your inability to comprehend this discourse. Which is highly amusing considering your 'participation'.

You mention money. Well done but completely besides the point. Can we have some more of your stunning insight into history, contemporary affair and of course our current situation? I fancy a laugh.

Thanks!

[Juristonia]

Are you seriously comparing late 1800's ME to the fucking Sumerians?

Considering we're talking about the history before the area turned to shit, take a wild guess, genius.

The area has always been a conflict zone, it was exacerbated by the influx of oil money. What the hell point are you trying to make? That in 1000BC they had the same technological level that they did in 1850?

The point I'm making is that your view on the history of the region is so beyond inaccurate it's not even funny anymore.

[Self--Esteem]

The hybris of the Israeli state seems to have grown rapidly the last years: the Gaza war, the Eastern Jerusalem-question and now this, three crimes that even the most ideologically convinced pro-israeli douche have a hard time to justify.

Not that it matters for their support in Washington, Bruxelles and such but maybe it will convince some workers that it's just stupid to use the "but the Hamas is just as bad" logic.

Yea. Let's all keep ignoring the facts and all evidence. Clearly Israel is evil. Never mind all this evidence to the contrary.

[Juristonia]

Camera.org? Seriously?
And you say the BBC is too biased.

It's only biased if it doesn't condemn all Palestinians as part of the terrorist hivemind.

Ah, of course.
How could I forget.

[Coffin-Breathe]

Seriously. What is up with you all? Do you like supporting enemies of the west and insulting people who come up with actual evidence, rather than paranoid sayings about how Israel is the blight of the world?

Tell me again how the participants of this flotilla are enemies of the west?

Kurt Wallander is quite entertaining and not particularly subversive, I'll have you know.

...a few dozen of European politicians will be very amused to see them called "enemys of the west", too...(two of them were from Germany, btw)

[The Bleeding Roses]

Are you seriously comparing late 1800's ME to the fucking Sumerians?

Considering we're talking about the history before the area turned to shit, take a wild guess, genius.

The area has always been a conflict zone, it was exacerbated by the influx of oil money. What the hell point are you trying to make? That in 1000BC they had the same technological level that they did in 1850?

The point I'm making is that your view on the history of the region is so beyond inaccurate it's not even funny anymore.

Please, the middle east maxed out technologically just about the time the Mohammad was born...

[Vonners]

Actually. I have only dismissed you and Franberry. You, because you seemed quite outraged, rather than reasoned (and also did put down the San Remo manual without even telling what is wrong with it) and Franberry, because of his apparent bias and because he did not dismiss it but only said "it's wrong dude. Next".

If you´re so fimiliar with the San Remo manual (I´ve studied it meanwhile too), then it would clearly no problem for you to explain, at which point in your opinion this act of piracy is justified...

I already did 5-6 pages earlier. I am really not in the mood to post it again.

No, you didn´t; but you always quoted said "San Remo manual", so please show, where to find the passage that justifies the Israelian acting, I couldn´t find it, you know ?

Mate. I posted the whole package of blockade rules.

Is Israel at war with Turkey?

Didn't you get the circular? Been going on for yonks that has...

I never get those. I feel left out now

Well shame on you for not listening to the secret voices that some of our posters here seem to be able to pick up on...

[Vervaria]

Seriously. What is up with you all? Do you like supporting enemies of the west and insulting people who come up with actual evidence, rather than paranoid sayings about how Israel is the blight of the world?

Tell me again how the participants of this flotilla are enemies of the west?

Kurt Wallander is quite entertaining and not particularly subversive, I'll have you know.

...a few dozen of European politicians will be very amused to see them called "enemys of the west", too...(two of them were from Germany, btw)

It's quite interesting how Self-Esteem loves generalizing and smearing anyone who disagrees with him.

[Juristonia]

The hybris of the Israeli state seems to have grown rapidly the last years: the Gaza war, the Eastern Jerusalem-question and now this, three crimes that even the most ideologically convinced pro-israeli douche have a hard time to justify.

Not that it matters for their support in Washington, Bruxelles and such but maybe it will convince some workers that it's just stupid to use the "but the Hamas is just as bad" logic.

Yea. Let's all keep ignoring the facts and all evidence. Clearly Israel is evil. Never mind all this evidence to the contrary.

No, clearly Israel is always right and never does anything wrong ever ever ever.
It's all the other guys. It's never them.
Israel is perfect. Nothing could ever be more right and just and peaceful than Israel.

I'm going to guess that you don't like it when the same ridiculous reason gets used against you.

[UnitedStatesOfAmerica-]

The US is still allied with Israel, unfortunately this means the US supports Israel no matter what. I must say that the US does not have this position toward any of its other allies.
When Hamas was first elected, they were given a chance to prove they were peaceful. They responded with a year of rocket attacks against Israeli cities and towns and Israel responded with overwhelming force and continues to act like it is trying to exterminate cockroaches. Meantime racial hatred continues to be taught in Gaza schools. That is how we got where we are today.
The people who live there are stuck between a rock and hardplace. Damned if they do and damned if they don't. This is one of those situations that proves how totally worthless the United Nations really is.