Israel attacks Aid workers (Israel megathred)

[South Norwega]

Israel says it will transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.

Like wood, steel, concrete, wheelschairs, or frozen salmon.

Well, you know what they'd do with Frozen Salmon. We can't have that, now can we.

[Eastfield Lodge]

By land, didn't work.

By sea, didn't work.

Now it's time to airlift supplies in!

[South Norwega]

By land, didn't work.

By sea, didn't work.

Now it's time to airlift supplies in!

Drop them from space!

Or fire them in using rockets!

[Stornhelm]

Seeing that most newspapers were reporting the ship as headed for Gaza, Israel might have been adhering to the Bush Doctrine(strike first)?

Yes, on that note I'll have to provide the Israeli's the same amount of honor regarding said doctrinal idea as I did Bush; which means my position remains unchanged.

If we wait for threats to fully materialise, we would be far too late. Or do I smell the stench of Munich in the air?

The Mari's full speed is 9.9 knots... If you think "waiting" would make it "far too late" then you and the IDF seriously need to stop popping those barbiturates.

Another Chamberlain genius.

Yes, Palestinian peace activists are certainly comparable to Nazis. Also, Chamberlain's policy was actually pragmatic. Britain was hardly in any shape to war with Germany during the period of appeasement, thanks in part to the Ten Year Rule, made self perpetuating by--you guessed it--Winston Churchill!

Peace activists are WORSE than Nazis. They are trying to foil Israel's plan to crush the Palestinians into submission. Nazis would simply be fighting Israel, and losing.

Losing. Right. The Jews excelled in WW2, apparently.

Yeah the Jewish Brigade did all right I guess http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jewish_Brigade

[Buffett and Colbert]

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

/thread

I think this is the bit they mean.

Does no one ever read my posts?

Another aid ship is trying to run the blockade.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/6/4/nation/6402019&sec=nation

Perhaps dealing with just one ship, the IDF will wait for it to enter territorial waters. Which wouldn't exactly be an apology or admission that they dealt wrongly with the flotilla. My money is on them breaking the law of the sea again, just because Israel never admits to having been wrong.

I'd say I'm 70% sure that this blockade is illegal. If they stopped them in Gazan waters, it'd still be a violation of international maritime law.

I'm no lawyer of course, but it probably comes down to whether Israel is considered to be occupying the Gaza strip (in which case they could search trade in and out, at least at port), or at war with the Gaza strip (they say they're at war with Hamas, which is not the same thing), or whether the Gaza strip is a sovereign nation (in which case the water off its coast would be it's territorial waters, not Israel's).

I do see some legitimacy in Israel keeping heavy weapons out of the Gaza strip, if they'd just admit that their military dominance and repeated interventions amount to an occupation of Gaza. If they hadn't repeatedly flaunted UN resolutions in the past, it would be possible for the UN to do that for them (possibly at the last port of call before sailing to Gaza).

But what they're doing (inspecting cargos and then delivering them themselves) is quite deeply insulting. In keeping with their policy of alternating aid and punishment, it seems aimed at forcing the Palestinians to recognize that they exist only at the mercy of Israel. You don't humiliate a people or a country like that if you really want peace some day.

There are a couple of things that, to me, make the blockade illegitimate regardless of whether they're in a state of war or not, yet. International law sayz:

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

Duration specifically, hasn't been specified as far as I'm aware. Also,

The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

Self explanatory.

103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies[...]

Israel is by no means providing free passage of foodstuffs and essential supplies. According to the UN, only a quarter of what is needed is allowed through by the Israeli military.

[The Corparation]

By land, didn't work.

By sea, didn't work.

Now it's time to airlift supplies in!

Israel has one of the best trained Air Forces on the planet. Something tells me that wouldn't work, and brings up the question are there any landing strips in Gaza?

[Nodinia]

By land, didn't work.

By sea, didn't work.

Now it's time to airlift supplies in!

Israel has one of the best trained Air Forces on the planet. Something tells me that wouldn't work, and brings up the question are there any landing strips in Gaza?

It was bombed to fuck some years past, as far as I recall.

[The Corparation]

By land, didn't work.

By sea, didn't work.

Now it's time to airlift supplies in!

Israel has one of the best trained Air Forces on the planet. Something tells me that wouldn't work, and brings up the question are there any landing strips in Gaza?

It was bombed to fuck some years past, as far as I recall.

So they'd have to use helicopters. Civilian helicopters can't carry very much cargo. And you need a base to operate from, probably a ship offshore, which would get raided by the Israelis.

[Gauthier]

At this rate wondering how long it'll take before Israel decides to drop all pretenses of moral superiority and just exterminates the Palestinians (with some applause from certain crowds no doubt).

[Southern Patriots]

At this rate wondering how long it'll take before Israel decides to drop all pretenses of moral superiority and just exterminates the Palestinians (with some applause from certain crowds no doubt).

Then the circle shall be complete, and they will have learned well from the Dark Side (Nazis).

[Eastfield Lodge]

At this rate wondering how long it'll take before Israel decides to drop all pretenses of moral superiority and just exterminates the Palestinians (with some applause from certain crowds no doubt).

Then the circle shall be complete, and they will have learned well from the Dark Side (Nazis).

Circle? You mean the Palestinians exterminated the Germans?

[Southern Patriots]

At this rate wondering how long it'll take before Israel decides to drop all pretenses of moral superiority and just exterminates the Palestinians (with some applause from certain crowds no doubt).

Then the circle shall be complete, and they will have learned well from the Dark Side (Nazis).

Circle? You mean the Palestinians exterminated the Germans?

Going from being the victims of those with power to using power to make victims of others.

[The Celestial Union]

Israel says it will transfer the aid to the Gaza Strip by land after checking the cargo for banned items.

Like wood, steel, concrete, wheelschairs, or frozen salmon.

Well, you know what they'd do with Frozen Salmon. We can't have that, now can we.

You ever been walloped with frozen salmon,? Those suckers can hurt. Frozen catfish with whiskers still attached are worse. fish Sticks are mostly harmless *nod*

WGBH/BBC's 'The World' on Friday listed some of the safe and prohibited items.

Frozen salmon is now approved.

Coriander is still a no no. as is instant coffee.
And the building materials.. Can't remember AL of it but there are some very strange aspects to the list. The list is posted at theworld.com or a link.

The same report noted the markets have lots of vegetables and fruit but very few people can afford them.

If sow of the humanitarian aid groups bought these and integrated them into food distribution that might pump a little money into the local economy and improve nutrition. Kind of iffy with produce but it could be done. Canned or otherwise preserved vegetables and fruits.

Banning coffee is just..wrong. Life in Gaza is bad enough without caffeine withdrawal

[Tekania]

"The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".

The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said. "

BBC

See, that wasn't so hard to do now was it... LOL.

[Caelapes]

"The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".

The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said. "

BBC

This means that the ship was boarded in international waters. Israel claims territorial waters out to 12 nautical miles, with no claims to an additional contiguous zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territoria ... sea_claims

[Buffett and Colbert]

"The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".

The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said. "

BBC

This means that the ship was boarded in international waters. Israel claims territorial waters out to 12 nautical miles, with no claims to an additional contiguous zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territoria ... sea_claims

I didn't realise they didn't claim a contiguous zone.

[Tekania]

"The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".

The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said. "

BBC

This means that the ship was boarded in international waters. Israel claims territorial waters out to 12 nautical miles, with no claims to an additional contiguous zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territoria ... sea_claims

Actually it would have been boarded within the zone defined by the Oslo convention stipulations as the economic zone of Gaza (which extends 20nm from the coast of Gaza)... In a blockade a perfectly acceptable act IMHO (as long as the blockade is legal)... I still have technical reservations relating to the actual legality of the blockade however, but at least in terms of actually procedurally boarding vessels entering a blockade zone it's acceptable.

[Utvara]

but at least in terms of actually procedurally boarding vessels entering a blockade zone it's acceptable.

Agreed, though I'm solidly decided as to my opposition of the blockade. I'm just glad that they didn't get Mossad'd, after the loss of contact was reported.

[Coccygia]

At this rate wondering how long it'll take before Israel decides to drop all pretenses of moral superiority and just exterminates the Palestinians (with some applause from certain crowds no doubt).

The Palestinians gave up any right to moral superiority a long time ago when they started killing Israeli civilians. More recently, of course, they elected a terrorist organization (Hamas), which has refused to renounce violence or accept the existence of Israel, as their government. The Palestinians are in a mess largely of their own making, IMFAO. Certainly there is no way out of this mess as long as Hamas runs Gaza...or, I think, as long as the Likud runs Israel, as they still seem to be fixated on the old "Greater Israel" idea. How else can you explain continuing to build settlements? (Well, other than short-sighted stupidity, I guess.)

[The Corparation]

Oh no, the people in gaza can't have "size A4 paper" or "industrial margarine" !

[Peppersmak]

[*]You do not need hundreds of people to deliver aid. You just need the crew and captains for the boats.
[*]When you want to deliver aid, you do not mix in items that are illegal to import to the coutry you are going.
[*]You do not fight the cost guard or military when they come to search your ship
[*]You do not cross a military blockade, you deliver the aid to the port you been told, so that it can be searched more properly
[*]Hamas refused to accept the aid from the ships when shipped by land from Israel since they did not get their military supplies.
[*]Clearly the so-called aid workers had a different primary agenda than to deliver aid.

"The 1,200 tonne cargo ship was boarded about 16 nautical miles (30km) off the Israeli coast.

An Israeli military spokeswoman said there "was full compliance from the crew and passengers on board".

The ship had previously ignored repeated requests to change course, the Israeli military said. "

BBC

This means that the ship was boarded in international waters. Israel claims territorial waters out to 12 nautical miles, with no claims to an additional contiguous zone.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Territoria ... sea_claims

Actually it would have been boarded within the zone defined by the Oslo convention stipulations as the economic zone of Gaza (which extends 20nm from the coast of Gaza)... In a blockade a perfectly acceptable act IMHO (as long as the blockade is legal)... I still have technical reservations relating to the actual legality of the blockade however, but at least in terms of actually procedurally boarding vessels entering a blockade zone it's acceptable.

Hamas and other groups are fighting a very real war against Israel. They are capable of hitting targets with rockets in most of Israel. This is not fireworks, but similar rockets that they Red army used in WW2. Great military weapons, but the accuracy is not great. Since the launchers are mobile (can be monted on trucks) it is virtually impossible for Israel to retaliate. So natrually Israel would want to avoid any items that could be used for military purposes to be imported into Gaza. They are lucky that the IDF shows so much restraint, most other countries would not put up with these kinds of attacks for so long. Imagine if some native american territory did that against the USA. I doubt our good president would keep the silk gloves on for very long.

[Coccygia]

Oh no, the people in gaza can't have "size A4 paper" or "industrial margarine" !

Egad, man, have you never heard of paper cuts? It is well known that size A4 paper is the most deadly of all - it is the .44 caliber Magnum of paper! And industrial margarine? For what? Buttering machinery? Sounds suspicious to me.

[Gauthier]

The Palestinians gave up any right to moral superiority a long time ago when they started killing Israeli civilians.

So all the Palestinians started killing Israeli civilians then? No such thing as Palestinian civilians, all of them are part of the Bug hivemind right?

More recently, of course, they elected a terrorist organization (Hamas), which has refused to renounce violence or accept the existence of Israel, as their government.

Much as you want to believe otherwise, Hamas wasn't elected on a "Kill teh joos because We Hate Freedom" platform, but because they provided social service and infrastructure to the common Palestinians while Fatah was too busy stuffing their own pockets and letting Israel ass-rape them at leisure.

The Palestinians are in a mess largely of their own making, IMFAO.

Schadenfreude towards suffering average Palestinians is fun innit?

Certainly there is no way out of this mess as long as Hamas runs Gaza...or, I think, as long as the Likud runs Israel, as they still seem to be fixated on the old "Greater Israel" idea. How else can you explain continuing to build settlements? (Well, other than short-sighted stupidity, I guess.)

Hamas was specifically funded by Israel to undermine Fatah, so them running Gaza is blowback to the Israelis in addition to what I mentioned earlier. And it's rather hypocritical of them to ban openly expansionist parties like Kahane Chai when they seem focused on trying to squeeze the Palestinians out of their lands.

[Coccygia]

The Palestinians gave up any right to moral superiority a long time ago when they started killing Israeli civilians.

So all the Palestinians started killing Israeli civilians then? No such thing as Palestinian civilians, all of them are part of the Bug hivemind right?

More recently, of course, they elected a terrorist organization (Hamas), which has refused to renounce violence or accept the existence of Israel, as their government.

Much as you want to believe otherwise, Hamas wasn't elected on a "Kill teh joos because We Hate Freedom" platform, but because they provided social service and infrastructure to the common Palestinians while Fatah was too busy stuffing their own pockets and letting Israel ass-rape them at leisure.

The Palestinians are in a mess largely of their own making, IMFAO.

Schadenfreude towards suffering average Palestinians is fun innit?

Certainly there is no way out of this mess as long as Hamas runs Gaza...or, I think, as long as the Likud runs Israel, as they still seem to be fixated on the old "Greater Israel" idea. How else can you explain continuing to build settlements? (Well, other than short-sighted stupidity, I guess.)

Hamas was specifically funded by Israel to undermine Fatah, so them running Gaza is blowback to the Israelis in addition to what I mentioned earlier. And it's rather hypocritical of them to ban openly expansionist parties like Kahane Chai when they seem focused on trying to squeeze the Palestinians out of their lands.

You really didn't answer any of my points. BTW I have no Schadenfreude toward the Palestinians but I have little sympathy either.

[Peppersmak]

At this rate wondering how long it'll take before Israel decides to drop all pretenses of moral superiority and just exterminates the Palestinians (with some applause from certain crowds no doubt).

Most people in Israel would give anything to have peaceful relations with the palistinians as long as they believe that the palistinians would keep their part of the agreement. When the palistinians and arabs stops the war it will be peace, but they apparently won't do that as long as there is a Israel.