Israel attacks Aid workers (Israel megathred)

[Falafelistan]

Yeah I know, who on Earth would defend themselves against piracy.

Pirates don't have helicopters. And Pirates tend to kill and take hostages for ransom. Ex: Somalia, Pirates of the Caribbean.

[Jaunty tunes]

A:Israel is allowing food and medical supplies through as well as other objects required for survival. It may be doing so fairly inefficiently but it is doing so annnnd I'm giong to want a source for the " All independent organizations are in agreement that Israel blocks 2/3s of the needed material for Gazans to survive."

So by your definition, a death camp which only provides 1/10th of the food necessary to keep it's population alive is not a death camp, because it let's in 1/10th of the food necessary. Brilliant! We can now rub out genocide and ethnic cleansing from historical records, because there are still some survivors!

Except that the Palestinians are not dying from starvation or lack of basic medicine. They are dying from bombs, bullets and other war related causes. I always hear people say Israel is causing the starvation of Palestinians but I have never seen documented proof from an independant source.

[Greed and Death]

The shooting was after they resisted the boarding and searching of the vessel.

Yeah I know, who on Earth would defend themselves against piracy.

I have already posted this but

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

from
http://www.icrc.org/ihl.nsf/385ec082b50 ... 1f002d49ce

Part II section 5.
By customary international law of the sea the Israeli navy is allowed to search the vessel.

[Falafelistan]

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

/thread

[Arkinesia]

I think it's funny that the Turkish forensics division is doing this as a result of an attack on a Turkish vessel after it was attacked by a country that Turkish people hate.

I might be implying something.

[Conserative Morality]

I think it's funny that the Turkish forensics division is doing this as a result of an attack on a Turkish vessel after it was attacked by a country that Turkish people hate.

I might be implying something.

I find it funny that people still trust Israel after the numerous civilians that have been killed in order to keep de facto control over the Gaza Strip.

I also find it rather funny that a Sovereign State is investigating the slaughter of it's own citizens, especially when done by a state with few allies other than the wronged state.

Oh, wait, no I don't.

[Arkinesia]

I think it's funny that the Turkish forensics division is doing this as a result of an attack on a Turkish vessel after it was attacked by a country that Turkish people hate.

I might be implying something.

I find it funny that people still trust Israel after the numerous civilians that have been killed in order to keep de facto control over the Gaza Strip.

I also find it rather funny that a Sovereign State is investigating the slaughter of it's own citizens, especially when done by a state with few allies other than the wronged state.

Oh, wait, no I don't.

If the Israelis, Americans, Russians, British, or any Muslim nation is doing the investigation, there is a virtual guarantee that it will be biased.

[Sane Outcasts]

I think it's funny that the Turkish forensics division is doing this as a result of an attack on a Turkish vessel after it was attacked by a country that Turkish people hate.

I might be implying something.

Your implication is incorrect. Turkey used to be friendly to Israel, often mediating diplomatic talks between them and their neighbors, before a ship flying it's flag in an aid mission was boarded in international waters by Israeli soldiers and several Turkish citizens were killed.

[Buffett and Colbert]

SECTION V : NEUTRAL MERCHANT VESSELS AND CIVIL AIRCRAFT

Neutral merchant vessels

67. Merchant vessels flying the flag of neutral States may not be attacked unless they:

(a) are believed on reasonable grounds to be carrying contraband or breaching a blockade, and after prior warning they intentionally and clearly refuse to stop, or intentionally and clearly resist visit, search or capture;
(b) engage in belligerent acts on behalf of the enemy;
(c) act as auxiliaries to the enemy s armed forces;
(d) are incorporated into or assist the enemy s intelligence system;
(e) sail under convoy of enemy warships or military aircraft; or
(f) otherwise make an effective contribution to the enemy s military action, e.g., by carrying military materials, and it is not feasible for the attacking forces to first place passengers and crew in a place of safety. Unless circumstances do not permit, they are to be given a warning, so that they can re-route, off-load, or take other precautions.

/thread

Nope, sorry. This subclause is inapplicable to this situation if the blockade is illegal, which it is. See a post of mine:

Another aid ship is trying to run the blockade.

http://thestar.com.my/news/story.asp?file=/2010/6/4/nation/6402019&sec=nation

Perhaps dealing with just one ship, the IDF will wait for it to enter territorial waters. Which wouldn't exactly be an apology or admission that they dealt wrongly with the flotilla. My money is on them breaking the law of the sea again, just because Israel never admits to having been wrong.

I'd say I'm 70% sure that this blockade is illegal. If they stopped them in Gazan waters, it'd still be a violation of international maritime law.

I'm no lawyer of course, but it probably comes down to whether Israel is considered to be occupying the Gaza strip (in which case they could search trade in and out, at least at port), or at war with the Gaza strip (they say they're at war with Hamas, which is not the same thing), or whether the Gaza strip is a sovereign nation (in which case the water off its coast would be it's territorial waters, not Israel's).

I do see some legitimacy in Israel keeping heavy weapons out of the Gaza strip, if they'd just admit that their military dominance and repeated interventions amount to an occupation of Gaza. If they hadn't repeatedly flaunted UN resolutions in the past, it would be possible for the UN to do that for them (possibly at the last port of call before sailing to Gaza).

But what they're doing (inspecting cargos and then delivering them themselves) is quite deeply insulting. In keeping with their policy of alternating aid and punishment, it seems aimed at forcing the Palestinians to recognize that they exist only at the mercy of Israel. You don't humiliate a people or a country like that if you really want peace some day.

There are a couple of things that, to me, make the blockade illegitimate regardless of whether they're in a state of war or not, yet. International law sayz:

94. The declaration shall specify the commencement, duration, location, and extent of the blockade and the period within which vessels of neutral States may leave the blockaded coastline.

Duration specifically, hasn't been specified as far as I'm aware. Also,

The declaration or establishment of a blockade is prohibited if:
(b) the damage to the civilian population is, or may be expected to be, excessive in relation to the concrete and direct military advantage anticipated from the blockade.

Self explanatory.

103. If the civilian population of the blockaded territory is inadequately provided with food and other objects essential for its survival, the blockading party must provide for free passage of such foodstuffs and other essential supplies[...]

Israel is by no means providing free passage of foodstuffs and essential supplies. According to the UN, only a quarter of what is needed is allowed through by the Israeli military.

[Arkinesia]

I think it's funny that the Turkish forensics division is doing this as a result of an attack on a Turkish vessel after it was attacked by a country that Turkish people hate.

I might be implying something.

Your implication is incorrect. Turkey used to be friendly to Israel, often mediating diplomatic talks between them and their neighbors, before a ship flying it's flag in an aid mission was boarded in international waters by Israeli soldiers and several Turkish citizens were killed.

And now they're probably hopping mad.

Your point?

[Falafelistan]

Blockade is a blockade. You run it, there will be consequences. U.S. Blockading Cuba was technically illegal. Did anyone care? Besides the Russians.

[Conserative Morality]

Blockade is a blockade. You run it, there will be consequences. U.S. Blockading Cuba was technically illegal. Did anyone care? Besides the Russians.

No, it wasn't illegal. It was an act of war. Big difference.

[Buffett and Colbert]

Blockade is a blockade. You run it, there will be consequences. U.S. Blockading Cuba was technically illegal. Did anyone care? Besides the Russians.

The United State's blockade was not illegal. They got the necessary unanimous approval from the Organisation of American States, let through all ships not carrying weaponry (which happened to be all ships stopped), and the blockade was effective. Those were the only requisites at the time for a legal blockade, and they met them.

[Tekania]

The same justifications, as in all commercial traffic that you are seizing are approaching a blockaded nation carrying supplies, which maybe or may not be prohibited by the blockading nations, with the stated intent of running the blockade in an attempt to circumnavigate the established procedures for the delivery of supplies to a militant run country. Is that what you mean by the same justifications?

No damnit. You only can intercept and board a ship if it is already at your blockade and is attempting to run it despite warnings not to.

Let me put this in terms you can understand. If Israel was a household, what it's doing is running out onto the street, shotgunning a truck driver on a public road and hijacking his truck claiming that it's full of "dangerous things".

If that's the sort of thing that's fine with you, then there's no reason why the same shouldn't be applied to all Israeli shipping.

Actually no, it would only take the truck driver minutes to make it to your house... A closer concept to this actual event would be driving across your state (assuming it's close in size to say, New York) and hijacking a truck because it's full of "dangerous things" and you think he may try to park in your neighbors driveway who might plan to attack you.

[Minotzia]

Israel broke international law. So what? Everyone does it all the time. Israel massacred Palestinians. So what? They do it all the time. Liberals got killed and people are complaining. So what? It happens every time.

There's nothing wrong with what Israel's done. Israel is serving its interests by continuing to oppress Palestine. Palestine isn't helping itself out, crying over every little (or big) incident and prepping terrorist attacks at the same time. Stop complaining about Israel's actions, they're a normal and necessary part of maintaining the standoff between the Arabs and Israelis.

Why bother with Palestine? They certainly aren't going to help you out; they support pan-Arab coalitions and unity, also known as anti-Western alliances. They support sharia law and Islamic expansion into Europe and elsewhere. They wouldn't stand a chance in hell if Israel fell; do you really believe that Iran and Jordan and Lebanon are interested in creating a Palestinian state, and not just in annexing their former territory?

Support Israel. That's the rational course of action: Israel is pro-West, industrialized, and opposed to anti-imperialists. They are a keystone in maintaining both American and European military effectiveness (indeed dominance) in the Middle East and Central Asia. They are the future, not Palestine.

[Juristonia]

Everyone does it so who cares

Best reasoning ever.

[Minotzia]

Everyone does it so who cares

Best reasoning ever.

What possible non-sentimental or partisan reasons could you have for favoring Palestinians?

[Buffett and Colbert]

Everyone does it so who cares

Best reasoning ever.

What possible non-sentimental or partisan reasons could you have for favoring Palestinians?

Decency.

[Minotzia]

Everyone does it so who cares

Best reasoning ever.

What possible non-sentimental or partisan reasons could you have for favoring Palestinians?

Decency.

That's quite clearly sentimental. Besides which neither side is "decent."

[Buffett and Colbert]

Everyone does it so who cares

Best reasoning ever.

What possible non-sentimental or partisan reasons could you have for favoring Palestinians?

Decency.

That's quite clearly sentimental. Besides which neither side is "decent."

Neither government is decent, but that doesn't mean that their citizens don't deserve to have the basic necessities of a somewhat comfortable living situation. I care about all people, not just the ones who might be able to give me something in return, see.

[Juristonia]

Everyone does it so who cares

Best reasoning ever.

What possible non-sentimental or partisan reasons could you have for favoring Palestinians?

Respect for and proper application of the law.
Just because one country does it, doesn't mean another country should be allowed to as well.
Just means that there's more than one country that needs to be put in their place.

[Utvara]

Israel broke international law. So what? Everyone does it all the time. Israel massacred Palestinians. So what? They do it all the time. Liberals got killed and people are complaining. So what? It happens every time.

There's nothing wrong with what Israel's done. Israel is serving its interests by continuing to oppress Palestine. Palestine isn't helping itself out, crying over every little (or big) incident and prepping terrorist attacks at the same time. Stop complaining about Israel's actions, they're a normal and necessary part of maintaining the standoff between the Arabs and Israelis.

Why bother with Palestine? They certainly aren't going to help you out; they support pan-Arab coalitions and unity, also known as anti-Western alliances. They support sharia law and Islamic expansion into Europe and elsewhere. They wouldn't stand a chance in hell if Israel fell; do you really believe that Iran and Jordan and Lebanon are interested in creating a Palestinian state, and not just in annexing their former territory?

Support Israel. That's the rational course of action: Israel is pro-West, industrialized, and opposed to anti-imperialists. They are a keystone in maintaining both American and European military effectiveness (indeed dominance) in the Middle East and Central Asia. They are the future, not Palestine.

Hmm, yes, tell me more, please.

[Panzerjaeger]

Someone needs to put Israel in their place.

Or out of it.

Completely agreed.

[Tekania]

Israel broke international law. So what? Everyone does it all the time.

Really, no point reading past that ( I did, but it was merely more babbling on about one person doing something to which something else is doing).

I am perfectly aware that Most of the Palestinians neighbors don't want to see a Palestinian state either. I'm aware that one nation or another breaks laws just like Israel does... None of this makes it right simple because people do it. EOF

[Eternal Yerushalayim]

Seeing that most newspapers were reporting the ship as headed for Gaza, Israel might have been adhering to the Bush Doctrine(strike first)?