Israel attacks Aid workers (Israel megathred)

[Yootopia]

If they had been in Israeli waters when it happened, no one would have glanced twice.

Dunno about that. But they'd have a better case, definitely.

[Risottia]

One question, were they all 9mm hand gun rounds ?
If so that would support Israel's claim it wasn't until they landed on the deck and met resistance that they started shooting.

Which, of course, would give the Israeli soldiers no rightful reason to shoot anyway, as they weren't being shoot upon, and they were boarding illegally a foreing ship in international waters. That's piracy.

For the last time, no it isn't.

Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_ ... /part7.htm

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

We've been through this already.

Ok... so it's an act of war instead.

They're already at war. They've always been at war, and will always be at war until everyone accepts their right to exist.

Excuse me? Israel is at war with Turkey?


anyway, about the piracy issue, from wiki: piracy

IMB Definition
The International Maritime Bureau (IMB) defines piracy as:

the act of boarding any vessel with an intent to commit theft or any other crime, and with an intent or capacity to use force in furtherance of that act.[108]

The crime being theft of the personal possessions of the people aboard the ship being boarded, abduction and multiple murder.

[Seperates]

Its called customs, the ship was heading for the Gaza, which I believe is still Israeli territory.

No difference between a ship suspect of carrying rockets or a ship suspect of carrying cocaine.

*ahem*

Not in Israeli waters. Therefore, Israel had no right to stop them.

Same senario probebly would have played out even if they HAD been in Israeli waters.

Devil's in the details, as they say.

Israel should have waited. If they had been in Israeli waters when it happened, no one would have glanced twice.

Absolutley, Darth, absolutley.

[Conserative Morality]

I can count four seperate conflicts, none of which initiated by Israel.

Links, then.

[Nadkor]

Just because its an aid ship doesn't mean its not importing bombs and rockets into Gaza for Hamas to lob at Israel. If the convoy had nothing to hide, why not stop and allow the inspection?

International Waters, they were not obligated to do so. With Israel's reputation, I wouldn't stop for them unless legally obligated to either.

Its called customs, the ship was heading for the Gaza, which I believe is still Israeli territory.

No difference between a ship suspect of carrying rockets or a ship suspect of carrying cocaine.

You might have had a point if it wasn't 67 miles (although an Israeli source seems to put it at 75 miles) from the Israeli coast.

[Galloism]

If they had been in Israeli waters when it happened, no one would have glanced twice.

Dunno about that. But they'd have a better case, definitely.

Well, once they're in Israeli waters, instead of "Aid ship attacked by Israeli Commandos" it becomes "Illegal Smugglers killed in firefight in Israeli waters."

It would have been a small column on the fourth page of the newspaper that no one would read.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Heading in the direction of a blockade and refusing communication orders to stop or divert is reasonable suspicion of trying to run the blockade I imagine.

If you have evidence that Israel is legally justified in it's interception of an aid ship in international articles, by all means, don't be silent.

Just because its an aid ship doesn't mean its not importing bombs and rockets into Gaza for Hamas to lob at Israel. If the convoy had nothing to hide, why not stop and allow the inspection?

If you have nothing to hide, why not let the police stop and search you every now and then, in the middle of the street (and in the middle of the night, with guns, helicopters, etc.), just in case?

If a police officer flashes his lights, I oblige and pull over. Don't you?

[Yootopia]

If they had been in Israeli waters when it happened, no one would have glanced twice.

Dunno about that. But they'd have a better case, definitely.

Well, once they're in Israeli waters, instead of "Aid ship attacked by Israeli Commandos" it becomes "Illegal Smugglers killed in firefight in Israeli waters."

It would have been a small column on the fourth page of the newspaper that no one would read.

I dunno, people still get in a huff when the headline is "IDF sticks bomb up a flatblock they claim was full of terrorists".

[Galloism]

Excuse me? Israel is at war with Turkey?


anyway, about the piracy issue, from wiki: piracy

IMB Definition
The International Maritime Bureau (IMB) defines piracy as:

the act of boarding any vessel with an intent to commit theft or any other crime, and with an intent or capacity to use force in furtherance of that act.[108]

The crime being theft of the personal possessions of the people aboard the ship being boarded, abduction and multiple murder.

If we're talking about crimes (even international ones), it would suit you well to use legal definitions rather than layperson definitions that don't actually apply in any legal setting.

[Vitaphone Racing]

I can count four seperate conflicts, none of which initiated by Israel.

Links, then.

There is a whole list of them here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... i_conflict

[Greed and Death]

Heading in the direction of a blockade and refusing communication orders to stop or divert is reasonable suspicion of trying to run the blockade I imagine.

If you have evidence that Israel is legally justified in it's interception of an aid ship in international articles, by all means, don't be silent.

http://www.usmilitary.com/5333/navy-edu ... d-seizure/
Search and seizure on the high seas of civilian vessels suspected of illegal activity seems common place.
After all if it is good enough for the Us navy to advertise it in order to get new recruits I imagine the Israelis will also do it.

[Yootopia]

I can count four seperate conflicts, none of which initiated by Israel.

Links, then.

There is a whole list of them here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... i_conflict

Yes I'm afraid that list proves you wrong.

[Vitaphone Racing]

I can count four seperate conflicts, none of which initiated by Israel.

Links, then.

There is a whole list of them here http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of ... i_conflict

Yes I'm afraid that list proves you wrong.

Your right, there is obviously more than four. I still can't find one initiated by Israel without provocation.

[Nadkor]

Heading in the direction of a blockade and refusing communication orders to stop or divert is reasonable suspicion of trying to run the blockade I imagine.

If you have evidence that Israel is legally justified in it's interception of an aid ship in international articles, by all means, don't be silent.

Just because its an aid ship doesn't mean its not importing bombs and rockets into Gaza for Hamas to lob at Israel. If the convoy had nothing to hide, why not stop and allow the inspection?

If you have nothing to hide, why not let the police stop and search you every now and then, in the middle of the street (and in the middle of the night, with guns, helicopters, etc.), just in case?

If a police officer flashes his lights, I oblige and pull over. Don't you?

I am yet to find a police officer on foot who has flashing lights.

Or who would shoot me five times for resisting a search.

Not to mention that a police officer must have reason to stop and search you, and it must be within his jurisdiction.

But whatever. You seem to have missed the point of the analogy.

Actually, perhaps using the analogy of "police officer" gave too much credence to the Israelis.

Maybe "random thug" would have been better.

[Conserative Morality]

http://www.usmilitary.com/5333/navy-edu ... d-seizure/
Search and seizure on the high seas of civilian vessels suspected of illegal activity seems common place.
After all if it is good enough for the Us navy to advertise it in order to get new recruits I imagine the Israelis will also do it.

Says nothing about international waters.

[Risottia]

By the way, still about the UN Convention on High Seas, I think that article 22 would be quite meaningful in this case, as the Turkish ships were sailing under Turkish flag, and weren't engaging in piracy or in slave trade.
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... h_seas.pdf

[Galloism]

http://www.usmilitary.com/5333/navy-edu ... d-seizure/
Search and seizure on the high seas of civilian vessels suspected of illegal activity seems common place.
After all if it is good enough for the Us navy to advertise it in order to get new recruits I imagine the Israelis will also do it.

Says nothing about international waters.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_seas

[Vitaphone Racing]

Heading in the direction of a blockade and refusing communication orders to stop or divert is reasonable suspicion of trying to run the blockade I imagine.

If you have evidence that Israel is legally justified in it's interception of an aid ship in international articles, by all means, don't be silent.

Just because its an aid ship doesn't mean its not importing bombs and rockets into Gaza for Hamas to lob at Israel. If the convoy had nothing to hide, why not stop and allow the inspection?

If you have nothing to hide, why not let the police stop and search you every now and then, in the middle of the street (and in the middle of the night, with guns, helicopters, etc.), just in case?

If a police officer flashes his lights, I oblige and pull over. Don't you?

I am yet to find a police officer on foot who has flashing lights.

Or who would shoot me five times for resisting a search.

Not to mention that a police officer must have reason to stop and search you, and it must be within his jurisdiction.

But whatever. You seem to have missed the point of the analogy.

Actually, perhaps using the analogy of "police officer" gave too much credence to the Israelis.

Maybe "random thug" would have been better.

No, you know exactly what I meant and you decided that you couldn't come back against it. Find a new ploy. If you have nothing to hide, you don't resist a search. Israel, like every other country in the world, have every right to intercept a civillian vessal they suspect of comitting a crime in the open ocean.

[Conserative Morality]

Your right, there is obviously more than four. I still can't find one initiated by Israel without provocation.

#
# 12 Gulf War of 1990-1991
# 13 Oslo peace process (1993-2000)
# 14 Intifada of 2000

* 14.1 Arab Peace Initiative of 2002

# 15 Israel's Disengagement of 2005
# 16 Israel-Lebanon conflict of 2006
# 17 2008-2009 Gaza War

Three were wars. One was an invasion, Israel to Lebanon.

[Greed and Death]

http://www.usmilitary.com/5333/navy-edu ... d-seizure/
Search and seizure on the high seas of civilian vessels suspected of illegal activity seems common place.
After all if it is good enough for the Us navy to advertise it in order to get new recruits I imagine the Israelis will also do it.

Says nothing about international waters.

But it does in the first sentence.

One of the jobs that the US Navy has on the high seas is vessel inspection and search.

Oceans, seas, and waters outside of national jurisdiction are also referred to as the high seas

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters

[Galloism]

By the way, still about the UN Convention on High Seas, I think that article 22 would be quite meaningful in this case, as the Turkish ships were sailing under Turkish flag, and weren't engaging in piracy or in slave trade.
http://untreaty.un.org/ilc/texts/instru ... h_seas.pdf

It was an illegal stop.

Still not piracy.

[Yootopia]

I still can't find one initiated by Israel without provocation.

Errr the Suez Canal sortie, the '67 war, and the 1982 invasion of Lebanon just for starters.

[Vitaphone Racing]

Your right, there is obviously more than four. I still can't find one initiated by Israel without provocation.

#
# 12 Gulf War of 1990-1991
# 13 Oslo peace process (1993-2000)
# 14 Intifada of 2000

* 14.1 Arab Peace Initiative of 2002

# 15 Israel's Disengagement of 2005
# 16 Israel-Lebanon conflict of 2006
# 17 2008-2009 Gaza War

Three were wars. One was an invasion, Israel to Lebanon.

Gulf war wasn't started by israel and is a whole nother story.
Israel to lebanon in 2006 was sparked by Lebanese militants
Gaza war was again sparked by militants.

[Conserative Morality]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_waters

Guess you're right there.

[Conserative Morality]

Gulf war wasn't started by israel and is a whole nother story.
Israel to lebanon in 2006 was sparked by Lebanese militants
Gaza war was again sparked by militants.

'06 Was still an Israeli invasion of Lebanon.

The Gaza war was started by Israel refusing to abide by the Ceasefire agreement.