Israel attacks Aid workers (Israel megathred)

[Greed and Death]

Your obviously not familiar with the concept of full auto on an automatic weapon.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Automatic_firearm
It means that I can fire more than 1 bullet per trigger time if I'm in close combat and in trouble such as when I'm getting beaten by a pole. This would also explain why the bullets seemed to be everywhere. Full auto, which is a type of firing mode, allows me to get a few bullets out at the cost of accuracy.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jcE0yNwcg10
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=GchaNUb5xJs
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mR2p9u-lkHM <I recommend this one you can see the dispensed shells come out.

these were 9 mm hand guns not likely to be full auto.
But there are plenty of gun slingers able to get 5 rounds off in under a second with a single action revolver.
4 rounds off in less then a second with a 9 mm semi auto is very reasonable.

[Albrante]

However, you must rememebr that the Isralies have Gaza under blockade. And as far from the videos I've seen, the aid ships refused to stop for the blockade and worsened the situation by attacking the men that landed in. However, everything after that was overkill on the Isralies part.

Pretty much my opinion of it. The Israelis shouldn't have been so over zealous, but the aid ships should not have tried to run a completely legal blockade after being warned numerous times to cease and desist.

[H N Fiddlebottoms VIII]

[blah]
I assume that even you can get a vague grasp of my point.

Is the "point" that you have no idea what a fire fight is like? Because that's what I'm getting.
We're well passed the good old days of single shot muskets, modern firearms can discharge an entire clip in the time it takes someone to realize "Hey! I've been injured! Timeout man, this shit isn't funny anymore."
And if there are multiple people shooting in a melee, things just get messy.

[Nadkor]

However, you must rememebr that the Isralies have Gaza under blockade.

You mean...just like West Berlin was under blockade? When the Berlin airlift happened? You know, the one that the western world still celebrates?

I assume, of course, that had the USSR brought down RAF or USAF planes over East Germany you totally wouldn't have had a problem with it.

And as far from the videos I've seen, the aid ships refused to stop for the blockade and worsened the situation by attacking the men that landed in. However, everything after that was overkill on the Isralies part.

They "landed in" 67 miles (IIRC) from the coast. Very, very, much outside Israel's territorial waters (by 55 miles, if 67 is correct). Well outside the boundaries of the blockade. They never even got a chance to refuse to stop for the blockade.

The blockade which, of course, is completely illegal under international law.

[Seperates]

However, you must rememebr that the Isralies have Gaza under blockade. And as far from the videos I've seen, the aid ships refused to stop for the blockade and worsened the situation by attacking the men that landed in. However, everything after that was overkill on the Isralies part.

Pretty much my opinion of it. The Israelis shouldn't have been so over zealous, but the aid ships should not have tried to run a completely legal blockade after being warned numerous times to cease and desist.

I mean, I'm not blaming the victims, but they didn't even stop...

[Albrante]

That's some impressive self-defence, shooting less than 50cm away and in the back of the head. Much more effective self-defence than a shot to the legs, obviously.

Is that self-defence? Or is it essentially state-sponsored murder in international waters?

There is seldom military logic that says "shoot for the legs" or "shoot to wound". In the heat of battle you need to take down threats as they arise, going for kill shots so that your enemy is down. That is the only logic that they could have saw when they were beset upon from all sides. A guy who is shot in the legs can still move, can still threaten you and your squad, so yes in my eyes it was still self defense.

And we all know that people shot in the face get right back up and threaten you, so just to be safe make sure you shoot them in the back of the head as well.

This is, of course, ignoring the fact that it was a group of elite commandos boarding a peaceful aid ship (in international waters and with little to no legal justification), not in the heat of battle.

A peaceful aid ship? According to the Israelis they had sticks, clubs, batons and knives.Despite the dubious factuality of this account even the aid workers agreed they had weapons. According to a German activist who was on board the ship, they had wooden batons. Why would a peaceful aid ship need wooden batons?

I note that you haven't bothered to respond to the point regarding shooting in the face, then shooting in the back, etc.

Doing that would be most helpful.

Then I will feel free to point out how ridiculous it is to even try and justify the elite squad of one of the best trained armies in the world having to shoot to kill in self-defence against a group of hippies with wooden sticks.

Yes hippis with wooden sticks, that out numbered you four to one and were trying to wrestle your guns off our and your friends.

As to not replying to our point, well we have a semiautomatic fire arm, a twisting, churning mass of bodies. Not to mention seven people beating you with sticks, I you can get a clean shot at somebodies center of mass in that situation, or know of someone who can, excluding chuck Norris of course, then please do tell.

[Vervaria]

However, you must rememebr that the Isralies have Gaza under blockade. And as far from the videos I've seen, the aid ships refused to stop for the blockade and worsened the situation by attacking the men that landed in. However, everything after that was overkill on the Isralies part.

Pretty much my opinion of it. The Israelis shouldn't have been so over zealous, but the aid ships should not have tried to run a completely legal blockade after being warned numerous times to cease and desist.

I mean, I'm not blaming the victims, but they didn't even stop...

Probably because they were well outside the blockade zone at the time.....

[Kayliea]

they were so peaceful they managed to push an israeli commando overboard.

[Albrante]

They "landed in" 67 miles (IIRC) from the coast. Very, very, much outside Israel's territorial waters (by 55 miles, if 67 is correct). Well outside the boundaries of the blockade. They never even got a chance to refuse to stop for the blockade.

The blockade which, of course, is completely illegal under international law.

Um they had been contacting the ship, telling them stop for quite a while, it kept going. What do you think it would have done if it did reach the blockade?

It would have kept going.

[Laser Awesome]

Assuming, of course, that every troop will understand and execute everything as it was meant to be in the heat of battle.

Anyone who knows anything about wars or skirmishes or even minor duels knows that things rarely ever go according to plan.

[Conserative Morality]

Um they had been contacting the ship, telling them stop for quite a while, it kept going. What do you think it would have done if it did reach the blockade?

It would have kept going.

"Stop! You're in international waters, and we can do whatever the hell we want?"

"What the fuck are they on about?"

[Nadkor]

they were so peaceful they managed to push an israeli commando overboard.

To which a responsible reply is killing 9 people, using 30 bullets to do so, and injuring many others.

[Conserative Morality]

Yes hippis with wooden sticks, that out numbered you four to one and were trying to wrestle your guns off our and your friends.

As to not replying to our point, well we have a semiautomatic fire arm, a twisting, churning mass of bodies. Not to mention seven people beating you with sticks, I you can get a clean shot at somebodies center of mass in that situation, or know of someone who can, excluding chuck Norris of course, then please do tell.

Apparently the Israelis had a clean shot at someone's head in that situation, assuming that was the situation.

[Albrante]

However, you must rememebr that the Isralies have Gaza under blockade. And as far from the videos I've seen, the aid ships refused to stop for the blockade and worsened the situation by attacking the men that landed in. However, everything after that was overkill on the Isralies part.

Pretty much my opinion of it. The Israelis shouldn't have been so over zealous, but the aid ships should not have tried to run a completely legal blockade after being warned numerous times to cease and desist.

I mean, I'm not blaming the victims, but they didn't even stop...

Probably because they were well outside the blockade zone at the time.....

What do you seriously think would have happened if the ships got to the blockade?
You shouldn't think for a second that they would have finally decided to listen to the Israelis and turned back.

[Nadkor]

Assuming, of course, that every troop will understand and execute everything as it was meant to be in the heat of battle.

Anyone who knows anything about wars or skirmishes or even minor duels knows that things rarely ever go according to plan.

Assuming, of course, that one of the elite units of one of the best trained armed forces in the entire world can actually keep some vague kind of control over itself.

[Seperates]

However, you must rememebr that the Isralies have Gaza under blockade.

You mean...just like West Berlin was under blockade? When the Berlin airlift happened? You know, the one that the western world still celebrates?

I assume, of course, that had the USSR brought down RAF or USAF planes over East Germany you totally wouldn't have had a problem with it.

And as far from the videos I've seen, the aid ships refused to stop for the blockade and worsened the situation by attacking the men that landed in. However, everything after that was overkill on the Isralies part.

They "landed in" 67 miles (IIRC) from the coast. Very, very, much outside Israel's territorial waters (by 55 miles, if 67 is correct). Well outside the boundaries of the blockade. They never even got a chance to refuse to stop for the blockade.

The blockade which, of course, is completely illegal under international law.

Um, no, I mean the blockade against weapons and munitions into Gaza which is completely legal under international law. People in Berlin needed food and water. And, yes, I do have a problem with them attacking the ships, which you would have realized if you had read my entire post.*eyeroll*

They were going to try for the blockade, ergo, they needed to be checked. They refused to be checked. However, everything after that was an absolute failure of policy on the part of the Israelis. They should have disabled the ships and then towed them to shore to be checked peacefully before lettig them go about their humanitarian duties.

[Vervaria]

Yes hippis with wooden sticks, that out numbered you four to one and were trying to wrestle your guns off our and your friends.

As to not replying to our point, well we have a semiautomatic fire arm, a twisting, churning mass of bodies. Not to mention seven people beating you with sticks, I you can get a clean shot at somebodies center of mass in that situation, or know of someone who can, excluding chuck Norris of course, then please do tell.

Apparently the Israelis had a clean shot at someone's head in that situation, assuming that was the situation.

Their concentration of fire is fairly impressive too.

[Nadkor]

They "landed in" 67 miles (IIRC) from the coast. Very, very, much outside Israel's territorial waters (by 55 miles, if 67 is correct). Well outside the boundaries of the blockade. They never even got a chance to refuse to stop for the blockade.

The blockade which, of course, is completely illegal under international law.

Um they had been contacting the ship, telling them stop for quite a while, it kept going. What do you think it would have done if it did reach the blockade?

It would have kept going.

Tell you what, you get 61 miles away from the point a country is (illegally) enforcing a blockade. If that country then lands its commando unit on your ship, in the middle of the night from helicopters, waving guns around, you can sit down and take it.

[Laser Awesome]

Assuming, of course, that every troop will understand and execute everything as it was meant to be in the heat of battle.

Anyone who knows anything about wars or skirmishes or even minor duels knows that things rarely ever go according to plan.

Assuming, of course, that one of the elite units of one of the best trained armed forces in the entire world can actually keep some vague kind of control over itself.

Assuming, of course, this is actually is one of the most elite units of one of the best trained armed forces in the entire world...and that there orders say nothing against use of force if resistance is encountered. Unfortunately, specifically non-fatal combat isn't generally taught to military forces. I also doubt such elite troops have bleeding hearts individually.

[Conserative Morality]

Um, no, I mean the blockade against weapons and munitions into Gaza which is completely legal under international law. People in Berlin needed food and water. And, yes, I do have a problem with them attacking the ships, which you would have realized if you had read my entire post.*eyeroll*

They were going to try for the blockade, ergo, they needed to be checked. They refused to be checked. However, everything after that was an absolute failure of policy on the Israelis. They should have disabled the ships and then towed them to shore to be checked peacefully before lettig them go about their humanitarian duties.

Illegal under international law.

You have no proof that they were going to try for the blockade. They intercepted a ship in international waters, armed, and killed aid workers.

Real fucking great job, Israel, it's not like that's in violation of any international agreements or anything crazy like that! And of course, if it was, you'd follow it, and immediately apologize, instead of justifying killing hippies with sticks shamelessly in front of the world!

[Risottia]

One question, were they all 9mm hand gun rounds ?
If so that would support Israel's claim it wasn't until they landed on the deck and met resistance that they started shooting.

Which, of course, would give the Israeli soldiers no rightful reason to shoot anyway, as they weren't being shoot upon, and they were boarding illegally a foreing ship in international waters. That's piracy.

[Yootopia]

Um, no, I mean the blockade against weapons and munitions into Gaza which is completely legal under international law.

It isn't, and plenty more than weapons are banned from going into Gaza. Stuff like concrete and some luxury good are also banned, although you can kind of see why. If HAMAS used their contacts in Iran to convert breeze blocks into nukes via nanotechnology (theoretically plausible), then Israel would be in loads of trouble.

[Albrante]

One question, were they all 9mm hand gun rounds ?
If so that would support Israel's claim it wasn't until they landed on the deck and met resistance that they started shooting.

Which, of course, would give the Israeli soldiers no rightful reason to shoot anyway, as they weren't being shoot upon, and they were boarding illegally a foreing ship in international waters. That's piracy.

They tried their riot dispersal equipment, but when that could stop the attacks of the raging aid workers, who had managed to wrest a pistol of them, they then opened fire.

[Galloism]

One question, were they all 9mm hand gun rounds ?
If so that would support Israel's claim it wasn't until they landed on the deck and met resistance that they started shooting.

Which, of course, would give the Israeli soldiers no rightful reason to shoot anyway, as they weren't being shoot upon, and they were boarding illegally a foreing ship in international waters. That's piracy.

For the last time, no it isn't.

Piracy consists of any of the following acts:

(a) any illegal acts of violence or detention, or any act of depredation, committed for private ends by the crew or the passengers of a private ship or a private aircraft, and directed:

(i) on the high seas, against another ship or aircraft, or against persons or property on board such ship or aircraft;

(ii) against a ship, aircraft, persons or property in a place outside the jurisdiction of any State;

(b) any act of voluntary participation in the operation of a ship or of an aircraft with knowledge of facts making it a pirate ship or aircraft;

(c) any act of inciting or of intentionally facilitating an act described in subparagraph (a) or (b).

http://www.un.org/Depts/los/convention_ ... /part7.htm

The United Nations Convention on the Law of the Sea

We've been through this already.

[Seperates]

Um, no, I mean the blockade against weapons and munitions into Gaza which is completely legal under international law. People in Berlin needed food and water. And, yes, I do have a problem with them attacking the ships, which you would have realized if you had read my entire post.*eyeroll*

They were going to try for the blockade, ergo, they needed to be checked. They refused to be checked. However, everything after that was an absolute failure of policy on the Israelis. They should have disabled the ships and then towed them to shore to be checked peacefully before lettig them go about their humanitarian duties.

Illegal under international law.

You have no proof that they were going to try for the blockade. They intercepted a ship in international waters, armed, and killed aid workers.

Real fucking great job, Israel, it's not like that's in violation of any international agreements or anything crazy like that! And of course, if it was, you'd follow it, and immediately apologize, instead of justifying killing hippies with sticks shamelessly in front of the world!

Um, it never specifically says in said the article linked that it is illegal, unless of course, I'm missing something. And where the Hell else would they be going with that much aid supplies?!

And yes, Isreal is most definitly being a creul sadistic bastard at this point in time. They should have apoligized and not have tried to justfy the killings, because they can never be justified.