Israel attacks Aid workers (Israel megathred)

[Nobel Hobos]

Who does consider the UN a legitimate authority on ANYTHING?

Because it takes many, many countries' diplomats' opinions into consideration when it acts, and some of the programmes related to the UN, such as the WHO, have been incredibly successful.

Which any country and subsequently ignore so long as they can make themselves enough of a bother, the UN is a joke, a worthless, useless joke. One that has long since ran it's course.

People in countries which can't flaunt the UN with impunity (eg, permanent members of the Security Council) actually have a higher opinion of the UN.

Are you joking honestly? the United state (a permanent member of the security council) is constantly flaunting the fact that they are above the decisions of the UN doubly so because as a member of the SC they can ensure that the UN will never be able to sanction them for anything.

Read it again please.

And you ignored the mention of successful programmes. Perhaps to you, the success of a country or organization consists entirely in being able to enforce its will on others ?

Are you joking honestly? the United state (a permanent member of the security council) is constantly flaunting the fact that they are above the decisions of the UN doubly so because as a member of the SC they can ensure that the UN will never be able to sanction them for anything.

The accusation that the UN is a "worthless, useless joke" fails if the UN can be shown to do any good at all. It does have sway on the actions of smaller countries, thus it does enforce its will. For instance, sanctions and weapons inspections DID actually disarm Saddam's Iraq of chemical and biological weapons.

UN peacekeepers, though you will OF COURSE point at their most miserable failures, do in fact save lives and prevent conflicts breaking out. They don't do it in YOUR country, so perhaps it doesn't matter to you.

You're doing exactly what I mocked you for. Judging the UN only in the terms you choose, by which it would fail. So it cannot always "provide security and enforce laws" and because of the SC, attempts to do so are usually blocked by at least one of them.

But even by the terms you chose, it does not entirely fail.

well I don't even thing of them as UN programs nor am I certain that WHO is even part of the UN.

[/quote]

No True Scotsman fallacy, and an Argument From Ignorance in the same sentence. Nice work.

Now, since I am clearly replying too slowly and carefully to take any meaningful role in this debate, I'm going to walk away.

[Intersystems Alliance]

The Israeli's released footage of the incident not too long ago.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/world/middle ... 200351.stm

It's obvious something went horribly wrong with the operation. You don't insert troops right into the clutches of the enemy, its idiotic. Someone needs to be sacked.

[MisanthropicPopulism]

If the lawn chair is lethal than yes. Definition of lethal (merriam webster):

1 a : of, relating to, or causing death <death by lethal injection> b : capable of causing death
2 : gravely damaging or destructive

Also I wouldn't put creating a lethal lawnchair past the Palestinians.

You heard it hear folks. The humanitarian ships were making a delivery of deadly lawn chairs to HAMAS.

[Marcurix]

Both sides are at fault in this. Israel should not have dropped troops in the middle on the ships, so they would be surrounded by people. Said people should not have attacked what where obviously soldiers, armed with guns. Very poor judgment on both sides.

[Dododecapod]

Having seen the video, I cannot blame the Israeli soldiers for defending themselves.

[Schwabenreich]

Having seen the video, I cannot blame the Israeli soldiers for defending themselves.

Can we at least blame them for forcefully boarding a ship in international waters?

[The Celestial Union]

American Christians actually believe this crap.

What, all of them? Really?

not literally all of them. But the ones on, for example, TBN (Trinity Broadcasting Network) for example.
There are others who believe that man controls his own destiny and that the purpose of the Biblical prophesies is to tell people what will happen if they chose the wrong path. But they do agree that Jesus will eventually have to invade and take over the earth, declaring himself absolute Monarch. But that is because they believe the governments of earth will ultimate fail.

Not all Christians, perhaps not even a majority. The view is strongest in fundamentalist and Evangelical denominations. Particularly those that use things like the Scofield Concordance or the theological doctrine of premillenial dispensation or PMD

Tim Lahaye, the author of the Left Behind series , Hal Lindsey, and a number of other authors . The specifics vary, but generally PMD says the Rapture Will occur, followed by the Tribulations which will include the destruction of the Temple in Jerusalem. Since there has been no Temple for centuries one would have to be built, which would require the destruction or removal of the Al Aqsa Mosque. (Dome of the Rock)

Which must make things awkward for Israelis who interact with some of the activists from the PMD movement. They want a State of Israel to exist so the Temple can be built on the site of Solomon's temple They want all this so the Temple and Israel can be destroyed.


according to the NPR report I posted a bit ago,this Free Gaza Movement has attempted to run the blockade 6 times before. The first five, the Israelis didn't intervene, The 6th time they did but no casualties occurred.

Which has me wondering if the veterans of the movement may have been operating perception that they might not get through but if they didn't they'd embarrass the Israelis, get some publicity. Someone might go to jail. Maybe someone gets roughed up but that's about it. From press accounts it sounds like at least some of those aboard the ships were not aid workers or crew. i.e. the US survivor from the Liberty.

The fact that the IDf tried to board that far outside the blockade makes no sense. The use of the Israeli equivalent of navy SEALS doesn't either. They are not AFAIK trained in dealing with protesters, riots etc.

The ship was warned to alter course didn't. Looking at the BBC and the You tube videos it seems pretty clear there was no element of surprise. There were plenty of people on the deck ready and waiting when the ISF troops quick roped on to the whip.

Lot of questions I'm still waiting for the answer to. But I suspect that some of this has to do with mis perceptions about what the oater side was going to do,or how they'd react. I'm no expert but some of what is known may have more do do with incompetence than rascality on the IDF's part.

( Not necessarily a defense of the IDf, If I can figure out thre were big problems with how this was done, someene who actually has formal training and experience should have been able to look atht eplan and see the problems)

[Upper North Yorkshire]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

[The Corparation]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

Having seen the video, I cannot blame the Israeli soldiers for defending themselves.

Can we at least blame them for forcefully boarding a ship in international waters?

No because they gave the ships a choice between stopping at an Isreali or Eygptian port or Boarding. The Aid workers chose to be boarded.

[Upper North Yorkshire]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

[Panzerjaeger]

Having seen the video, I cannot blame the Israeli soldiers for defending themselves.

Can we at least blame them for forcefully boarding a ship in international waters?

Anti-Semite.

[The Corparation]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

The crime was breaking the naval blockade of Gaza. They declined to do it legaly by stopping in Egypt or Isreal first.

[Caninope]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

[Panzerjaeger]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

The right hoops of an illegal blockade? Well that is a new one.

[Caninope]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

The right hoops of an illegal blockade? Well that is a new one.

It might be illegal, but it's still there.

Like I was once told: "The boss isn't always right, but he's the boss."

[Upper North Yorkshire]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

but me giving change to a tramp on the street is being charitable without going through the right hoops (i should really give that money to a charity for homeless people) does that mean i should be shot in the face?

[Panzerjaeger]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

The right hoops of an illegal blockade? Well that is a new one.

It might be illegal, but it's still there.

Like I was once told: "The boss isn't always right, but he's the boss."

Now work equals international law? I'll be damned I didn't think you could make this more asinine but you did.

[Holland Israel and USA]

Israelis were cheking for weapons because the violent past from Gaza to Israel. Randomly people started attacking the soldiers and the defended thereselfs. If Gaza wasnt so G-D damn violent they wouldnt be suspicious!

[Panzerjaeger]

Israelis were cheking for weapons because the violent past from Gaza to Israel. Randomly people started attacking the soldiers and the defended thereselfs. If Gaza wasnt so G-D damn violent they wouldnt be suspicious!

While violating international law. Yet they have the balls to complain about the Holocaust pretty damn ironic if you ask me.

[Caninope]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

The right hoops of an illegal blockade? Well that is a new one.

It might be illegal, but it's still there.

Like I was once told: "The boss isn't always right, but he's the boss."

Now work equals international law? I'll be damned I didn't think you could make this more asinine but you did.

I'm beast like that.

My point was that while might shouldn't necessarily make right, it seems to have done so in this case.

[Panzerjaeger]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

The right hoops of an illegal blockade? Well that is a new one.

It might be illegal, but it's still there.

Like I was once told: "The boss isn't always right, but he's the boss."

Now work equals international law? I'll be damned I didn't think you could make this more asinine but you did.

I'm beast like that.

My point was that while might shouldn't necessarily make right, it seems to have done so in this case.

Way too early to call that. Israel is running out of its backing it has in the States and the International Community hasn't responded yet. Remember not to count your chickens till the eggs hatch.

[Caninope]

loving all the israel apologists

i always find it hilarious that the oh so persecuted race that is the jews make the most of their freedom by treating those peaky muslims like vermin.

israel needs to learn to count to 10 and realize that even though the UN fully supports the extermination of muslims you have to keep it on the down low (its political correctness gone mad!)

Many of the people on the ships weren't muslim.

yeah but the ship was going to aid muslims, that was its crime

No, it's crime was not going through the right hoops.

The right hoops of an illegal blockade? Well that is a new one.

It might be illegal, but it's still there.

Like I was once told: "The boss isn't always right, but he's the boss."

Now work equals international law? I'll be damned I didn't think you could make this more asinine but you did.

I'm beast like that.

My point was that while might shouldn't necessarily make right, it seems to have done so in this case.

Way too early to call that. Israel is running out of its backing it has in the States and the International Community hasn't responded yet. Remember not to count your chickens till the eggs hatch.

So now foreign relations = farming?

Even I couldn't pull that one off.

[Clamparapa]

Israelis were cheking for weapons because the violent past from Gaza to Israel. Randomly people started attacking the soldiers and the defended thereselfs. If Gaza wasnt so G-D damn violent they wouldnt be suspicious!

While violating international law. Yet they have the balls to complain about the Holocaust pretty damn ironic if you ask me.

International Law? Where the hell was International Law when Iraq was gassing Kurds, or when North Korea was firing nuclear missiles into the ocean? International Law apparently only affects people who have a right to do so...

Oh and do we need to bring up Godwin's Law...

[Wolffbaden]

[Holland Israel and USA]

The Israelis checked for weapons BAM! The workers started a fight Israelis using selfdefence kil 10 to 20 ppl.