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National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

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Concurria
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Founded: Jun 21, 2009
Ex-Nation

Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Concurria » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:04 pm

Parthenon wrote:Since I doubt many of you have actually read the policy...

§ 654. Policy concerning homosexuality in the armed forces

(a) Findings.— Congress makes the following findings:
(1) Section 8 of article I of the Constitution of the United States commits exclusively to the Congress the powers to raise and support armies, provide and maintain a Navy, and make rules for the government and regulation of the land and naval forces.
(2) There is no constitutional right to serve in the armed forces.
(3) Pursuant to the powers conferred by section 8 of article I of the Constitution of the United States, it lies within the discretion of the Congress to establish qualifications for and conditions of service in the armed forces.
(4) The primary purpose of the armed forces is to prepare for and to prevail in combat should the need arise.
(5) The conduct of military operations requires members of the armed forces to make extraordinary sacrifices, including the ultimate sacrifice, in order to provide for the common defense.
(6) Success in combat requires military units that are characterized by high morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion.
(7) One of the most critical elements in combat capability is unit cohesion, that is, the bonds of trust among individual service members that make the combat effectiveness of a military unit greater than the sum of the combat effectiveness of the individual unit members.
(8) Military life is fundamentally different from civilian life in that—
(A) the extraordinary responsibilities of the armed forces, the unique conditions of military service, and the critical role of unit cohesion, require that the military community, while subject to civilian control, exist as a specialized society; and
(B) the military society is characterized by its own laws, rules, customs, and traditions, including numerous restrictions on personal behavior, that would not be acceptable in civilian society.
(9) The standards of conduct for members of the armed forces regulate a member’s life for 24 hours each day beginning at the moment the member enters military status and not ending until that person is discharged or otherwise separated from the armed forces.
(10) Those standards of conduct, including the Uniform Code of Military Justice, apply to a member of the armed forces at all times that the member has a military status, whether the member is on base or off base, and whether the member is on duty or off duty.
(11) The pervasive application of the standards of conduct is necessary because members of the armed forces must be ready at all times for worldwide deployment to a combat environment.
(12) The worldwide deployment of United States military forces, the international responsibilities of the United States, and the potential for involvement of the armed forces in actual combat routinely make it necessary for members of the armed forces involuntarily to accept living conditions and working conditions that are often spartan, primitive, and characterized by forced intimacy with little or no privacy.
(13) The prohibition against homosexual conduct is a longstanding element of military law that continues to be necessary in the unique circumstances of military service.
(14) The armed forces must maintain personnel policies that exclude persons whose presence in the armed forces would create an unacceptable risk to the armed forces’ high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability.
(15) The presence in the armed forces of persons who demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts would create an unacceptable risk to the high standards of morale, good order and discipline, and unit cohesion that are the essence of military capability.
(b) Policy.— A member of the armed forces shall be separated from the armed forces under regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense if one or more of the following findings is made and approved in accordance with procedures set forth in such regulations:
(1) That the member has engaged in, attempted to engage in, or solicited another to engage in a homosexual act or acts unless there are further findings, made and approved in accordance with procedures set forth in such regulations, that the member has demonstrated that—
(A) such conduct is a departure from the member’s usual and customary behavior;
(B) such conduct, under all the circumstances, is unlikely to recur;
(C) such conduct was not accomplished by use of force, coercion, or intimidation;
(D) under the particular circumstances of the case, the member’s continued presence in the armed forces is consistent with the interests of the armed forces in proper discipline, good order, and morale; and
(E) the member does not have a propensity or intent to engage in homosexual acts.
(2) That the member has stated that he or she is a homosexual or bisexual, or words to that effect, unless there is a further finding, made and approved in accordance with procedures set forth in the regulations, that the member has demonstrated that he or she is not a person who engages in, attempts to engage in, has a propensity to engage in, or intends to engage in homosexual acts.
(3) That the member has married or attempted to marry a person known to be of the same biological sex.
(c) Entry Standards and Documents.—
(1) The Secretary of Defense shall ensure that the standards for enlistment and appointment of members of the armed forces reflect the policies set forth in subsection (b).
(2) The documents used to effectuate the enlistment or appointment of a person as a member of the armed forces shall set forth the provisions of subsection (b).
(d) Required Briefings.— The briefings that members of the armed forces receive upon entry into the armed forces and periodically thereafter under section 937 of this title (article 137 of the Uniform Code of Military Justice) shall include a detailed explanation of the applicable laws and regulations governing sexual conduct by members of the armed forces, including the policies prescribed under subsection (b).
(e) Rule of Construction.— Nothing in subsection (b) shall be construed to require that a member of the armed forces be processed for separation from the armed forces when a determination is made in accordance with regulations prescribed by the Secretary of Defense that—
(1) the member engaged in conduct or made statements for the purpose of avoiding or terminating military service; and
(2) separation of the member would not be in the best interest of the armed forces.
(f) Definitions.— In this section:
(1) The term “homosexual” means a person, regardless of sex, who engages in, attempts to engage in, has a propensity to engage in, or intends to engage in homosexual acts, and includes the terms “gay” and “lesbian”.
(2) The term “bisexual” means a person who engages in, attempts to engage in, has a propensity to engage in, or intends to engage in homosexual and heterosexual acts.
(3) The term “homosexual act” means—
(A) any bodily contact, actively undertaken or passively permitted, between members of the same sex for the purpose of satisfying sexual desires; and
(B) any bodily contact which a reasonable person would understand to demonstrate a propensity or intent to engage in an act described in subparagraph (A).



I am absolutely stunned that public policy—policy that governs U.S. citizens—could be so laden with hyperbolic... frill.
" I stopped being Pro-choice the day my baby turned 2. At the party, he turned to me, opened his mouth, and unleashed a stream of mucus and snot that I didn't know a baby was capable of. I was gonna murder the little bugger until I realized instantly that his youth didn't justify my anger. That's when I said that regardless of my perceived incapability as a mother, I am capable, 'cuz I do know better. "

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Maurepas
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Maurepas » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:10 pm

Concurria wrote:
I am absolutely stunned that public policy—policy that governs U.S. citizens—could be so laden with hyperbolic... frill.

If youre stunned by that you just dont know 'Merka well enough, ;)

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Farnhamia
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Farnhamia » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:11 pm

Concurria wrote:
Parthenon wrote:Since I doubt many of you have actually read the policy...

*snip*



I am absolutely stunned that public policy—policy that governs U.S. citizens—could be so laden with hyperbolic... frill.

They get paid by the word, I think.
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Milks Empire
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Milks Empire » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:18 pm

Dyakovo wrote:
Chumblywumbly wrote:
Parthenon wrote:...the military society is characterized by its own laws, rules, customs, and traditions, including numerous restrictions on personal behavior, that would not be acceptable in civilian society.

And simply being homosexual is a 'personal behaviour' that is legitimately restricted by the military?

These restrictions are for, one presumes, combat efficiency. One wonders then what about being homosexual affects efficiency?

Homosexuals interfere with unit cohesion.
That is at least what the official story is.

Funny... it doesn't bug any other military in the western world that I can think of. The United States has got to be about the most backwards nation in the western world.

Land of the Free, my ass.

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Maurepas
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Maurepas » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:20 pm

Milks Empire wrote:Funny... it doesn't bug any other military in the western world that I can think of. The United States has got to be about the most backwards nation in the western world.

Land of the Free, my ass.

Unfortunately...

With all of the WASPs feeling like their Civil Rights needs are met, not a whole lot gets done on the matter without massive revolts taking place...

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Farnhamia
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Farnhamia » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:21 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Funny... it doesn't bug any other military in the western world that I can think of. The United States has got to be about the most backwards nation in the western world.

Land of the Free, my ass.

Unfortunately...

With all of the WASPs feeling like their Civil Rights needs are met, not a whole lot gets done on the matter without massive revolts taking place...

There was that WASP revolt back in the 1860s, though, but yeah.
Make Earth Great Again: Stop Continental Drift!
And Jesus was a sailor when he walked upon the water ...
"Make yourself at home, Frank. Hit somebody." RIP Don Rickles
My country, right or wrong; if right, to be kept right; and if wrong, to be set right. ~ Carl Schurz
<Sigh> NSG...where even the atheists are Augustinians. ~ The Archregimancy
Now the foot is on the other hand ~ Kannap
RIP Dyakovo ... Ashmoria (Freedom ... or cake)
This is the eighth line. If your signature is longer, it's too long.

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Maurepas
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Maurepas » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:24 pm

Farnhamia wrote:
Maurepas wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Funny... it doesn't bug any other military in the western world that I can think of. The United States has got to be about the most backwards nation in the western world.

Land of the Free, my ass.

Unfortunately...

With all of the WASPs feeling like their Civil Rights needs are met, not a whole lot gets done on the matter without massive revolts taking place...

There was that WASP revolt back in the 1860s, though, but yeah.

lol, there were alot more than WASPs involved...in fact, I think there were more WASPs on the other side...

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Milks Empire
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Milks Empire » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:33 pm

Maurepas wrote:
Milks Empire wrote:Funny... it doesn't bug any other military in the western world that I can think of. The United States has got to be about the most backwards nation in the western world.

Land of the Free, my ass.

Unfortunately...

With all of the WASPs feeling like their Civil Rights needs are met, not a whole lot gets done on the matter without massive revolts taking place...

In that case, time to start a riot!

...But who should lead it? The biggest mouth in the LGBT community is someone who would make the movement for equality move backwards.

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DMistan
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Founded: May 26, 2009
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby DMistan » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:35 pm

Phenia wrote:Humans do. Humans have sexual orientations. You can't just wish it away and pretend the military is supposed to be made up of superhuman, non-sexual T-800s for whom sexuality is a total non-issue. That is no way to address the issue at all.


As private citizens, I agree.
However, I expect the military to maintain strict discipline, which requires the conduct of all persons in the service to be rather reserved, regardless of gender or orientation.

Parthenon wrote:I am a straight male.

Ohbie Kaybie then...

Parthenon wrote: Do I walk around the city telling every person I meet this? No.

Well, maybe not everyone, but, a man's gotta get laid sometime... Surely, you must tell someone.

Parthenon wrote: Would I die if I never told this to someone? No.

Are you a Priest? I thought you said you were going for your JD. Since when did a JD require a vow of abstinence?
Dude, if you're saving yourself for marriage or something, that's fine. But don't pretend that you'll never tell anyone what sort of person you prefer to bump uglies with. Let's say you're the sort of guy waiting for Miss Right. Okay. You'll still have to tell Miss Right.
What I'm trying to say is: I don't believe you. I think you'll go insane if you actually go through life never telling that special person how you feel about them.

Parthenon wrote: Sexual Orientation shouldn't be something to be flaunted by people regardless of what side of the rainbow they fall on.

Flaunted, as in "PDA," I can understand your objection. Denying it exists is folly.
Last edited by DMistan on Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Apertior
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Apertior » Thu Jul 02, 2009 6:37 pm

Parthenon wrote: Sexual Orientation shouldn't be something to be flaunted by people regardless of what side of the rainbow they fall on.

Then you believe we should also kick people out of the military who admit that they're straight, yes?
But remember that the Captain belongs to the most dangerous enemy of truth and freedom, the solid unmoving cattle of the majority.
Oh, God, the terrible tyranny of the majority.

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Dyakovo
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Dyakovo » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:20 pm

Milks Empire wrote:
Dyakovo wrote:
Chumblywumbly wrote:And simply being homosexual is a 'personal behaviour' that is legitimately restricted by the military?

These restrictions are for, one presumes, combat efficiency. One wonders then what about being homosexual affects efficiency?

Homosexuals interfere with unit cohesion.
That is at least what the official story is.

Funny... it doesn't bug any other military in the western world that I can think of. The United States has got to be about the most backwards nation in the western world.

Land of the Free, my ass.

*shrugs*
Too much influence from fundies... :(
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Meadowmere
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Meadowmere » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:42 pm

Yes, I see what an adult conversation can be like. Still, we were supposed to do this in character. The man broke the rules, he got some of what he deserved.

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Maurepas
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Maurepas » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:43 pm

Meadowmere wrote:Yes, I see what an adult conversation can be like. Still, we were supposed to do this in character. The man broke the rules, he got some of what he deserved.

Image

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Milks Empire
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Milks Empire » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:48 pm

Meadowmere wrote:Yes, I see what an adult conversation can be like. Still, we were supposed to do this in character.

:palm:
General Forum Rulings and Good General Advice wrote:This is where you're at now, and is where posters discuss & debate real life, important issues (like the seperation of church & state), discuss trivial crap ("what is your favourite sandwich?"), get to know each other, and even hold mini-RP's of our own (the NS General Election). All are welcome and you're welcome to talk about anything you like as long as it complies with the rules above.

Nowhere in there does it say it is to be in character.

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Dyakovo
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Dyakovo » Thu Jul 02, 2009 7:49 pm

Meadowmere wrote:Yes, I see what an adult conversation can be like. Still, we were supposed to do this in character. The man broke the rules, he got some of what he deserved.

NSG is an OoC forum.
Don't take life so serious... It isn't permanent...
Freedom from religion is an integral part of Freedom of religion
Married to Koshka
USMC veteran MOS 0331/8152
Grave_n_Idle: Maybe that's why the bible is so anti-other-gods, the other gods do exist, but they diss on Jehovah all the time for his shitty work.
Ifreann: Odds are you're secretly a zebra with a very special keyboard.
Ostro: I think women need to be trained
Margno, Llamalandia, Tarsonis Survivors, Bachmann's America, Internationalist Bastard B'awwwww! You're mean!

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Steam Steam East
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Steam Steam East » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:35 pm

Don't ask don't tell is nothing short of discrimination. If homosexual citizens wish to serve in the armed forces they have every right to and have a right to be free from such discrimination while serving. Why should any respectable military discharge any officer for who they are, especially if said officer has preformed outstandingly during their career?

The argument that it causes distraction and breaks up unit cohesion is bullshit. You could use the same argument to ban women from service. Also, do you know how much pressure its puts on a person when they're forced to remain silent about their identity out of fear of losing their job? Why is it okay for straight soldiers do openly discuss their relationships and families? How is that any different than a homosexual soldier admitting he/she is gay/lesbian and misses their partner back home?
"Those who would give up Essential Liberty to purchase a little Temporary Safety deserve neither Liberty nor Safety." Benjamin Franklin
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Milks Empire
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Milks Empire » Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:38 pm

Steam Steam East wrote:Don't ask don't tell is nothing short of discrimination. If homosexual citizens wish to serve in the armed forces they have every right to and have a right to be free from such discrimination while serving. Why should any respectable military discharge any officer for who they are, especially if said officer has preformed outstandingly during their career?

The argument that it causes distraction and breaks up unit cohesion is bullshit. You could use the same argument to ban women from service. Also, do you know how much pressure its puts on a person when they're forced to remain silent about their identity out of fear of losing their job? Why is it okay for straight soldiers do openly discuss their relationships and families? How is that any different than a homosexual soldier admitting he/she is gay/lesbian and misses their partner back home?

It goes against Teh Bibel!
Pretty lame, I know, but that's where it's rooted.
Last edited by Milks Empire on Thu Jul 02, 2009 9:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Free Outer Eugenia
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Re: National Guard: Gay Iraq veteran must leave service

Postby Free Outer Eugenia » Thu Jul 02, 2009 10:25 pm

Concurria wrote:I am absolutely stunned that public policy—policy that governs U.S. citizens—could be so laden with hyperbolic... frill.
You sir are a true innocent :p
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