American Imperialism Thread

[Hintuwan]

France would probably be speaking German if it wasn't for America

At worst, they'd be singing the L'Internationale as the national anthem tops

American ideas of classical liberalism are responsible for the emergence of class consciousness throughout Europe and the American nation is solely responsible for the freedoms that today's Western Europeans now enjoy.

I think that people around the world can learn from these American ideas, even if their government does not always embody them. People can equally learn from the egalitarianism that the Russian and Chinese revolutions brought about while acknowledging their mistakes and shortcomings.

Lemme guess, the tyrannical, genocidal regime in Taiwan?

I do not support the government of Taiwan or its past actions, I support the re-unification of China. Actually, both the Kuomintang and the PRC have an official policy of advocating for re-unification just under different ideologies. I think both parties are correct in seeking it as it is cruel for two people of the same language and culture to be separated by artificial borders. I hope that it happens peacefully, regardless of which ideology wins in the end.

Tyranny and genocide cannot be condoned just because both sides of conflicting ideologies committed it. Not saying the white terror was worse or that the red terror was better as human dignity has an invaluable price. It is not okay for innocent people to die for any reason, especially if it is perpetrated by their own government.

However the idea that America is somehow different and not a bully unlike literally every empire in the world is just funny at best.

A surprisingly W take from ya

Of course, my country was colonized by America so I know what I'm talking about.

[Picairn]

The Soviet economic model is so great that the country was forced to import grain from its own archenemy, the US, from the 1970s onwards despite possessing vast fertile lands in Ukraine and southern Russia, as well as ever-increasing investments in agriculture.

[El Lazaro]

The Soviet economic model is so great that the country was forced to import grain from its own archenemy, the US, from the 1970s onwards despite possessing vast fertile lands in Ukraine and southern Russia, as well as ever-increasing investments in agriculture.

>tfw you’re one of the most imperialistic states in history and still dead broke

[Khardsland]

Freedoms

Freedom to intentionally starve people who can't pay you in glorified paper isn't freedom

Safety

The Nazis had high safety, doesn't make them nice people.

GDP & GDP per Capita

GDP only measures the amount of money the nation makes in total via transactions. It doesn't measure if the money was earned morally, if workers were overworked, if wages were stolen or if people who did absolutely no work got all the cash.

And other policies the country has.

Policies like what? Freedom to exploit workers? Wealth redistribution?

Literacy should not be seen as a sign of prosperity, North Korea has a literacy rate of around 100%. But their government is corrupt, incompetent, and commits human rights violations on a daily basis

Personally, I'd prescribe you stop listen to Yeonmi Park's nonsense and watch this video fully. That age restriction thingy was just done by YouTube to kill its popularity, there's nothing actually adult in it.

[Hintuwan]

The Soviet economic model is so great that the country was forced to import grain from its own archenemy, the US, from the 1970s onwards despite possessing vast fertile lands in Ukraine and southern Russia, as well as ever-increasing investments in agriculture.

I don't think it's fair to judge an entire economic system on one or two failures. Remember that even the United States faced similar hardships during the Great Depression, and continues to face its own food shortages despite being one of if not the most economically powerful country in the world.

In the words of President FDR: “The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

[Greater Rostoria]

The Soviet economic model is so great that the country was forced to import grain from its own archenemy, the US, from the 1970s onwards despite possessing vast fertile lands in Ukraine and southern Russia, as well as ever-increasing investments in agriculture.

Maybe if the USSR had good agricultural policies that prevent disasters like Holodomor, they would not be having grain problems. And this is just talking about grain and agriculture, this is not even going into the failed projects and policies about mining in places like Central Asia.

[Haganham]

The US isn't as dominating in its hegemony as European colonial empires, but that's certainly not because it loves the oppressed peoples or has an obligation to be anti-imperialist (lol, lmao), but because economic influence and military alliance (in which the US takes on a preeminent role among its allies or vassals) are cheaper and more beneficial to itself than ruling and maintaining expensive, rebellious colonies.

you just described obligate anti-imperialism lol.

[Khardsland]

American ideas of classical liberalism are responsible for the emergence of class consciousness throughout Europe and the American nation is solely responsible for the freedoms that today's Western Europeans now enjoy.

I think that people around the world can learn from these American ideas, even if their government does not always embody them. People can equally learn from the egalitarianism that the Russian and Chinese revolutions brought about while acknowledging their mistakes and shortcomings.

Americans are responsible for socialism, what are you smoking?

I do not support the government of Taiwan or its past actions, I support the re-unification of China. Actually, both the Kuomintang and the PRC have an official policy of advocating for re-unification just under different ideologies. I think both parties are correct in seeking it as it is cruel for two people of the same language and culture to be separated by artificial borders. I hope that it happens peacefully, regardless of which ideology wins in the end.

W take

Tyranny and genocide cannot be condoned just because both sides of conflicting ideologies committed it. Not saying the white terror was worse or that the red terror was better as human dignity has an invaluable price. It is not okay for innocent people to die for any reason, especially if it is perpetrated by their own government.

Not if said ""victims"" didn't exist. If a genocide was really being done by the CCP, it'd be visible in the demographics, something which is not.

[Hintuwan]

The US isn't as dominating in its hegemony as European colonial empires, but that's certainly not because it loves the oppressed peoples or has an obligation to be anti-imperialist (lol, lmao), but because economic influence and military alliance (in which the US takes on a preeminent role among its allies or vassals) are cheaper and more beneficial to itself than ruling and maintaining expensive, rebellious colonies.

You are actually right, but as others have pointed out, this actually proves that America's intentions are not always benign.

I think that no-one should unironically believe in Manifest Destiny in the 21st century any more than they should belive that the USSR or China can do no wrong.

[Khardsland]

Maybe if the USSR had good agricultural policies that prevent disasters like Holodomor

The Holodomor happened because the kulaks refused to pay taxes, meet production demands and even outright burnt their crops. If you even dare call that a genocide, I'll literally just cite the reformed Wikipedia article (note that Wikipedia is infamous for being controlled by the right).

And this is just talking about grain and agriculture, this is not even going into the failed projects and policies about mining in places like Central Asia.

Almost like we didn't know about the human impact on the ecological balance until very recently.

[El Lazaro]

The Soviet economic model is so great that the country was forced to import grain from its own archenemy, the US, from the 1970s onwards despite possessing vast fertile lands in Ukraine and southern Russia, as well as ever-increasing investments in agriculture.

I don't think it's fair to judge an entire economic system on one or two failures. Remember that even the United States faced similar hardships during the Great Depression, and continues to face its own food shortages despite being one of if not the most economically powerful country in the world.

In the words of President FDR: “The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

How many millions were starved to death during the Great Depression?

[Greater Rostoria]

Freedoms

Freedom to intentionally starve people who can't pay you in glorified paper isn't freedom

Safety

The Nazis had high safety, doesn't make them nice people.

GDP & GDP per Capita

GDP only measures the amount of money the nation makes in total via transactions. It doesn't measure if the money was earned morally, if workers were overworked, if wages were stolen or if people who did absolutely no work got all the cash.

And other policies the country has.

Policies like what? Freedom to exploit workers? Wealth redistribution?

Literacy should not be seen as a sign of prosperity, North Korea has a literacy rate of around 100%. But their government is corrupt, incompetent, and commits human rights violations on a daily basis

Personally, I'd prescribe you stop listen to Yeonmi Park's nonsense and watch this video fully. That age restriction thingy was just done by YouTube to kill its popularity, there's nothing actually adult in it.

1. Freedom of speech and such, and in capitalist countries the people are actually able to have enough food to put on the table. Instead of having to wait in line for hours to get a single loaf of bread.

2. This is why I say, we should judge a country based on 'multiple factors'. Not just focusing on a single point, did you not even read what I said?

3. The more money a country has, the more it is able to spend on hospitals and roads and other essential buildings to improve the lives of their citizens.

4. The video you provided is made by a channel that is directly associated with the North Korean government...That is the most bias videoon the entire platform. Yeonmi Park lived in North Korea and defected, she knows what she is talking about.

[Picairn]

The Soviet economic model is so great that the country was forced to import grain from its own archenemy, the US, from the 1970s onwards despite possessing vast fertile lands in Ukraine and southern Russia, as well as ever-increasing investments in agriculture.

I don't think it's fair to judge an entire economic system on one or two failures. Remember that even the United States faced similar hardships during the Great Depression, and continues to face its own food shortages despite being one of if not the most economically powerful country in the world.

In the words of President FDR: “The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

To be clear, the Soviet economic model was extremely bullshit, and agricultural mismanagement is just one of its big flaws. I have loads to say about it, but I don't have time to dig up my old posts about it right now.

In a nutshell, despite pouring additional billions of rubles into agricultural reforms, mechanization, and expansion of cultivated lands every year since the 1960s, Soviet agricultural output remained largely stagnated, and there were consistent food shortages, often reaching to dangerous near-famine levels when crop failures happened which prompted the Soviets to purchase large quantities of grain from the West.

[Hintuwan]

American ideas of classical liberalism are responsible for the emergence of class consciousness throughout Europe and the American nation is solely responsible for the freedoms that today's Western Europeans now enjoy.

I think that people around the world can learn from these American ideas, even if their government does not always embody them. People can equally learn from the egalitarianism that the Russian and Chinese revolutions brought about while acknowledging their mistakes and shortcomings.

Americans are responsible for socialism, what are you smoking?

I mean even Marx acknowledges this in his manifesto. My opinion is simply that due reverence should be given to bourgeois liberalism for waging a revolution against pre-existing feudal class relations. I don't think capitalist oppression in its current form is in any way as bad or worse than the feudalism which preceded it.

Tyranny and genocide cannot be condoned just because both sides of conflicting ideologies committed it. Not saying the white terror was worse or that the red terror was better as human dignity has an invaluable price. It is not okay for innocent people to die for any reason, especially if it is perpetrated by their own government.

Not if said ""victims"" didn't exist. If a genocide was really being done by the CCP, it'd be visible in the demographics, something which is not.

I am not accusing the CPC of any kind of genocide, although it should be acknowledged that innocent people were killed by their own government during and after the Chinese revolution. To be fair, innocent people are killed in any revolution and I do not condone pacifism any more than I condone communist revolution. But China is not special in this regard.

From a realpolitik perspective though I think some pressure should be applied on China politically until it stops being a bully in the area in and around the South China Sea. I think you should also understand why China is being singled out in the first place, and how it relates to their government's actions towards their neighbours. There needs to be a balance of power and when the United States provides a counterweight it's not necessarily an act of imperialism.

[Picairn]

The US isn't as dominating in its hegemony as European colonial empires, but that's certainly not because it loves the oppressed peoples or has an obligation to be anti-imperialist (lol, lmao), but because economic influence and military alliance (in which the US takes on a preeminent role among its allies or vassals) are cheaper and more beneficial to itself than ruling and maintaining expensive, rebellious colonies.

you just described obligate anti-imperialism lol.

Hardly, economic influence and military hegemony is a form of imperialism, not anti. And it is no more "obligate" than the great power's "sphere of influence" and "strategic depth" arguments calling for territorial buffers.

[Jebslund]

It sure as hell is a better indicator of progress than whatever GDP nonsense you got there

No, its just not.

You can have 100% literacy rates, but the worst, and most violent government in the world. Instead success should be measured in things like:
*Freedoms
*Safety
*GDP & GDP per Capita
*And other policies the country has.

Literacy should not be seen as a sign of prosperity, North Korea has a literacy rate of around 100%. But their government is corrupt, incompetent, and commits human rights violations on a daily basis

You cannot have freedom without literacy. It is why slaves were forbidden to learn how to read. It is why dictatorships spend so much money publishing propaganda and burning/banning any information that doesn't conform to the propaganda. It may not be an indicator of prosperity in and of itself, but literacy is most definitely a factor.

[Khardsland]

I don't think it's fair to judge an entire economic system on one or two failures. Remember that even the United States faced similar hardships during the Great Depression, and continues to face its own food shortages despite being one of if not the most economically powerful country in the world.

In the words of President FDR: “The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

How many millions were starved to death during the Great Depression?

Why just count the failure of the markets in 1929? We can do better (or worse in this case).

1770: Between 7 and 10 million in conventional estimates
1921: Kulak crop burnings and White food robberies killed an estimated 5 million people
1932: Kulaks refuse to pay taxes and burn their crops, kill 3.3–5 million people
1943: Estimated 0.8 to 3.8 million in Bengal alone (1943 was the highest food production year in Raj history fyi)
1945: Vietnamese Famine killed 400,000—2,000,000 people

Moreover, 3.1 million children have been dying every year in our current capitalist system. If you wanna do the math, do it. This video shows the total death toll of capitalism, peace!

PS: This is supposed to be about American Imperialism, not capitalism vs communism. There are two forums to debate just that.

[The Lone Alliance]

Dang, guess you can't build your country close to American foreign bases without being nuked to oblivion

Since when has the US nuked China?

And why is North Korea entitled to have South Korea against their will?

[Hintuwan]

I don't think it's fair to judge an entire economic system on one or two failures. Remember that even the United States faced similar hardships during the Great Depression, and continues to face its own food shortages despite being one of if not the most economically powerful country in the world.

In the words of President FDR: “The test of our progress is not whether we add more to the abundance of those who have much; it is whether we provide enough for those who have too little.”

To be clear, the Soviet economic model was extremely bullshit, and agricultural mismanagement is just one of its big flaws. I have loads to say about it, but I don't have time to dig up my old posts about it right now.

In a nutshell, despite pouring additional billions of rubles into agricultural reforms, mechanization, and expansion of cultivated lands every year since the 1960s, Soviet agricultural output remained largely stagnated, and there were consistent food shortages, often reaching to dangerous near-famine levels when crop failures happened which prompted the Soviets to purchase large quantities of grain from the West.

It is understandable why you feel it was a failure. However, it doesn't make the American system any better.

[Khardsland]

4. The video you provided is made by a channel that is directly associated with the North Korean government...That is the most bias videoon the entire platform. Yeonmi Park lived in North Korea and defected, she knows what she is talking about.

Yeonmi Park's wiki page has an entire section on the things she made up to gain attention; quite surprising seeing how Wikipedia is just a right wing echo chamber.

[Hintuwan]

Yeonmi Park is indeed a well-known liar and the South Korean media has a tendency to sensationalize news stories in order to gain views.

[Khardsland]

Since when has the US nuked China?

With the amount of threats every single American president has given, I wouldn't be surprised if one seriously chooses doing so.

And why is North Korea entitled to have South Korea against their will?

Because Korea was meant to be united under one nation and the most successful rebels were the communists but then the peninsula got partitioned because America always wants a piece of the cake?

[Khardsland]

Yeonmi Park is indeed a well-known liar and the South Korean media has a tendency to sensationalize news stories in order to gain views.

You want me to break my W key, don't you?

[The Lone Alliance]

It is understandable why you feel it was a failure. However, it doesn't make the American system any better.

The American system was better, it's just "better" that doesn't mean "Without flaws" for the most part the US has not had famine in the country, nor does it regularly have food rationing, even at the worst of the supply shortages of COVID there was still food on the shelves even if the amount and the variety of food was limited based on supply conditions.

[Greater Rostoria]

4. The video you provided is made by a channel that is directly associated with the North Korean government...That is the most bias videoon the entire platform. Yeonmi Park lived in North Korea and defected, she knows what she is talking about.

Yeonmi Park's wiki page has an entire section on the things she made up to gain attention; quite surprising seeing how Wikipedia is just a right wing echo chamber.

I would rather trust Yeonmi Park, rather than North Korea or people that are associated with it.

And North Korea has said plenty more BS, like how the Kim dynasty are literal gods, how Kim Jong-il created the hamburger, how Kim scored a perfect score in bowling, and how Kim Il-sung managed to start reading by the age of 3.

I can continue but you probably get my point.

No, its just not.

You can have 100% literacy rates, but the worst, and most violent government in the world. Instead success should be measured in things like:
*Freedoms
*Safety
*GDP & GDP per Capita
*And other policies the country has.

Literacy should not be seen as a sign of prosperity, North Korea has a literacy rate of around 100%. But their government is corrupt, incompetent, and commits human rights violations on a daily basis

You cannot have freedom without literacy. It is why slaves were forbidden to learn how to read. It is why dictatorships spend so much money publishing propaganda and burning/banning any information that doesn't conform to the propaganda. It may not be an indicator of prosperity in and of itself, but literacy is most definitely a factor.

I never said that literacy should not be considered as a factor, my point was highlighting how OP thinks that literacy should be the sole factor in deciding the prosperity of a nation. Literacy and education should be considered when talking about how good a nation is, alongside other factors like the ones I provided and more.