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Revisiting Interesting Incel Perspectives.

For discussion and debate about anything. (Not a roleplay related forum; out-of-character commentary only.)

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Northern Socialist Council Republics
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Postby Northern Socialist Council Republics » Sat May 27, 2023 11:51 am

The sheer toxicity of that community does makes it difficult to evaluate the merit in any perspectives that come out of that pit on anything like an objective basis.

I tend to be sympathetic to their identification of problems. Some men are just less attractive by whatever standards for attractiveness their culture has, which means that they are more often denied social opportunities. Gender roles are restrictive on men too, yet men restricted by masculine gender roles find far less help in society than women restricted by feminine ones. And some feminists do argue for what is essentially reverse discrimination as the solution to historical male dominance. These are real problems.

I have yet to see anyone in that community propose any coherent solutions to any of these problems, however. People are upset that they aren't finding romantic success... so they should stop trying to find it and start to antagonise women instead? How is that supposed to help?
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Stellar Colonies
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Founded: Mar 27, 2017
Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Stellar Colonies » Sat May 27, 2023 11:52 am

Northern Socialist Council Republics wrote:The sheer toxicity of that community does makes it difficult to evaluate the merit in any perspectives that come out of that pit on anything like an objective basis.

I tend to be sympathetic to their identification of problems. Some men are just less attractive by whatever standards for attractiveness their culture has, which means that they are more often denied social opportunities. Gender roles are restrictive on men too, yet men restricted by masculine gender roles find far less help in society than women restricted by feminine ones. And some feminists do argue for what is essentially reverse discrimination as the solution to historical male dominance. These are real problems.

I have yet to see anyone in that community propose any coherent solutions to any of these problems, however. People are upset that they aren't finding romantic success... so they should stop trying to find it and start to antagonise women instead? How is that supposed to help?

Whinging about the other side is easier than solving problems, so
Floofybit wrote:Your desired society should be one where you are submissive and controlled
Primitive Communism wrote:What bodily autonomy do men need?
La Xinga wrote:Cop takes knife. Cop cuts off head.

Done.
Techocracy101010 wrote:If she goes on a rampage those saggy wonders are as deadly as nunchucks
Parmistan wrote:It's not ALWAYS acceptable when we do it, but it's MORE acceptable when we do it.
Theodorable wrote:Jihad will win.
I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

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Stellar Colonies is a loose galactic confederacy.

The Confederacy & the WA.

Add 1200 years.

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Juansonia
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Posts: 2174
Founded: Apr 01, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Juansonia » Sat May 27, 2023 11:53 am

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Juansonia wrote:I am confused as to how the term "incel" has been so thuroughly been disconnected from its etymology that it's just another word for "neo-misogynist".

The term "incel" was first used self-descriptively by a woman, and it simply refered to those who, due to involuntary factors (getting turned down, lack of opportunity, etc.) ended up celibate.

Now, it's a term used for "woman-hater", and it's often used derogatorily for the most batshit insane reasons possible. Hell, at least 3 men got called incels because they turned down a woman's advances.

I'm guessing that, since the term was first coined, the spaces which used that term became more male-focused, and that got to a point where someone got the idea of blaming women for rejection. Eventually, that idea became dominant and developed into several worldviews (taking inspiration from discredited wolf studies and misunderstood trans allegories), until the idea of a woman being an "incel" was absurd.

"Neo-misogynist" is the word that many in this thread should be using. Don't call a bulldozer a spade.
It appears to have replaced the role of “virgin” as an insult directed at men.
I guess that people are so desparate to hate an "other" that they will do anything to dehumanise a group which they can get away with hurting.
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Soviet Haaregrad
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Postby Soviet Haaregrad » Sat May 27, 2023 11:55 am

Nantoraka wrote:
Soviet Haaregrad wrote:
Does not getting laid make one a victim?

Of course not. Doesn't change the fact that incel has lost meaning and is now a generic insult towards men.


I accept your concession and you'll have to find someone else to shoot on your relocated goalposts.
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Gaybeans
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Postby Gaybeans » Sat May 27, 2023 11:55 am

I am vastly disinterested in listening to the ethos spouted by misogynists tbh, regardless of whether they call themselves an incel or not. And frankly, your summing up of an entire movement (i.e. feminism) with multitudes of different attitudes and stances as "oops just being part of an artificial divide" shows either you don't understand what women are fighting against or are somehow thinking "Hey don't kill us for being women" with "Women bad cause they won't date me" cause that's a massive false equivalence.

I know it's hard getting a woman to date you (I'm literally a lesbian) but projecting your insecurities onto an entire gender is indefensible.
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Stellar Colonies
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Founded: Mar 27, 2017
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sat May 27, 2023 11:56 am

Juansonia wrote:
Stellar Colonies wrote:It appears to have replaced the role of “virgin” as an insult directed at men.
I guess that people are so desparate to hate an "other" that they will do anything to dehumanise a group which they can get away with hurting.

Hard to break through though to people who either see an entire gender as being salivating rape monkeys or evil manipulative “Chad-chasers” interested more in looks and money than anything else.
Floofybit wrote:Your desired society should be one where you are submissive and controlled
Primitive Communism wrote:What bodily autonomy do men need?
La Xinga wrote:Cop takes knife. Cop cuts off head.

Done.
Techocracy101010 wrote:If she goes on a rampage those saggy wonders are as deadly as nunchucks
Parmistan wrote:It's not ALWAYS acceptable when we do it, but it's MORE acceptable when we do it.
Theodorable wrote:Jihad will win.
I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

Straight/ace male North Californian.
Stellar Colonies is a loose galactic confederacy.

The Confederacy & the WA.

Add 1200 years.

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Bradfordville
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Postby Bradfordville » Sat May 27, 2023 11:56 am

Juansonia wrote:I am confused as to how the term "incel" has been so thuroughly been disconnected from its etymology that it's just another word for "neo-misogynist".

The term "incel" was first used self-descriptively by a woman, and it simply refered to those who, due to involuntary factors (getting turned down, lack of opportunity, etc.) ended up celibate.

Now, it's a term used for "woman-hater", and it's often used derogatorily for the most batshit insane reasons possible. Hell, at least 3 men got called incels because they turned down a woman's advances.

I'm guessing that, since the term was first coined, the spaces which used that term became more male-focused, and that got to a point where someone got the idea of blaming women for rejection. Eventually, that idea became dominant and developed into several worldviews (taking inspiration from discredited wolf studies and misunderstood trans allegories), until the idea of a woman being an "incel" was absurd.

"Neo-misogynist" is the word that many in this thread should be using. Don't call a bulldozer a spade.


Is it even neo-Misogyny? It isn't like old school sexism officially died for a while, it's just the latest iteration of bigotry to take hold in a new generation. I'd say calling people who demonize women "sexists" is fairly sufficient.
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Juansonia
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Founded: Apr 01, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Juansonia » Sat May 27, 2023 11:57 am

Soviet Haaregrad wrote:
Juansonia wrote:I am confused as to how the term "incel" has been so thuroughly been disconnected from its etymology that it's just another word for "neo-misogynist".

The term "incel" was first used self-descriptively by a woman, and it simply refered to those who, due to involuntary factors (getting turned down, lack of opportunity, etc.) ended up celibate.

Now, it's a term used for "woman-hater", and it's often used derogatorily for the most batshit insane reasons possible. Hell, at least 3 men got called incels because they turned down a woman's advances.

I'm guessing that, since the term was first coined, the spaces which used that term became more male-focused, and that got to a point where someone got the idea of blaming women for rejection. Eventually, that idea became dominant and developed into several worldviews (taking inspiration from discredited wolf studies and misunderstood trans allegories), until the idea of a woman being an "incel" was absurd.

"Neo-misogynist" is the word that many in this thread should be using. Don't call a bulldozer a spade.
In this case the bulldozers chose to embrace the term spade to the point most shovels might feel uncomfortable identifying as spades.

The bitter misogynists adopted the term for themselves.
When people use "spade" to describe bulldozers, it makes it almost impossible to talk about shovels. (please ignore this analogy's flaws, there is no perfect analogy for anything).

I thought that the point of this thread was to talk about spades, not bulldozers.
Hatsune Miku > British Imperialism
IC: MT if you ignore some stuff(mostly flavor), stats are not canon. Embassy link.
OOC: Owns and (sometimes) wears a maid outfit, wants to pair it with a FN SCAR-L. He/Him/His
Space Squid wrote:Each sin should get it's own month.

Right now, Pride gets June, and Greed, Envy, and Gluttony have to share Thanksgiving/Black Friday through Christmas, Sloth gets one day in September, and Lust gets one day in February.

It's not equitable at all
Gandoor wrote:Cliché: A mod making a reply that's full of swearing after someone asks if you're allowed to swear on this site.

It makes me chuckle every time it happens.
Brits mistake Miku for their Anthem

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Stellar Colonies
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Postby Stellar Colonies » Sat May 27, 2023 11:57 am

Bradfordville wrote:
Juansonia wrote:I am confused as to how the term "incel" has been so thuroughly been disconnected from its etymology that it's just another word for "neo-misogynist".

The term "incel" was first used self-descriptively by a woman, and it simply refered to those who, due to involuntary factors (getting turned down, lack of opportunity, etc.) ended up celibate.

Now, it's a term used for "woman-hater", and it's often used derogatorily for the most batshit insane reasons possible. Hell, at least 3 men got called incels because they turned down a woman's advances.

I'm guessing that, since the term was first coined, the spaces which used that term became more male-focused, and that got to a point where someone got the idea of blaming women for rejection. Eventually, that idea became dominant and developed into several worldviews (taking inspiration from discredited wolf studies and misunderstood trans allegories), until the idea of a woman being an "incel" was absurd.

"Neo-misogynist" is the word that many in this thread should be using. Don't call a bulldozer a spade.


Is it even neo-Misogyny? It isn't like old school sexism officially died for a while, it's just the latest iteration of bigotry to take hold in a new generation. I'd say calling people who demonize women "sexists" is fairly sufficient.

An accurate, if needlessly broad label.
Floofybit wrote:Your desired society should be one where you are submissive and controlled
Primitive Communism wrote:What bodily autonomy do men need?
La Xinga wrote:Cop takes knife. Cop cuts off head.

Done.
Techocracy101010 wrote:If she goes on a rampage those saggy wonders are as deadly as nunchucks
Parmistan wrote:It's not ALWAYS acceptable when we do it, but it's MORE acceptable when we do it.
Theodorable wrote:Jihad will win.
I try to be objective, but I do have some biases.

Straight/ace male North Californian.
Stellar Colonies is a loose galactic confederacy.

The Confederacy & the WA.

Add 1200 years.

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Nantoraka
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Founded: Oct 19, 2017
Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Nantoraka » Sat May 27, 2023 11:58 am

Soviet Haaregrad wrote:
Nantoraka wrote:Of course not. Doesn't change the fact that incel has lost meaning and is now a generic insult towards men.


I accept your concession and you'll have to find someone else to shoot on your relocated goalposts.

Homeboy, the goal posts never moved from the post I replied to :)

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Kenowa
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Posts: 319
Founded: Nov 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kenowa » Sat May 27, 2023 12:00 pm

Equai wrote:
Kenowa wrote:... Did you fully read the post?

Incels are misogynistic, arguably bigoted, and probably entitled. The thing is that they do having positive qualities that get ignored by the fact they are in a group opposite to yours, and that just calling someone bad and anormal ignores the rule of everything having a motive. Why are incels is a difficult question, that still needs some research done. But their viewpoints are worth investigating.

Some people see positive qualities in Hitler but that doesn't mean that those "viewpoints are worth investigating". I don't have to investigate interesting viewpoints of people whose core ideology is being antifeministist and anti-women because their male privilege is shaking because they realize that they aren't entitled to a woman and can't comprehend what no means no means (and not to mention that those same people want me dead and worse but I can't say it since its PG-13 site).

Hitler's viewpoints are 100% worth investigating. It would help us understand how a society can be charmed by a random guy into doing unspeakable acts and seeing them as right. Nobody is telling you that have to investigate said viewpoints if you feel uncomfortable doing so, I am just saying that we shouldn't just throw whatever incels made into the trash and disregard it as objetively wrong because of it being based on incel experiences.

Incels are bad people? In my opinion, yes. Feminists are bad people? In my opinion, yes. Yet I think both of them are worth looking into.

You said in your post that "women should have no right telling how men should be" but would you agree that the same should be vice versa and that men have no right to say how women should be?

Yes.
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Soviet Haaregrad
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Postby Soviet Haaregrad » Sat May 27, 2023 12:03 pm

Kenowa wrote:Incels are bad people? In my opinion, yes. Feminists are bad people? In my opinion, yes.


You're not seriously comparing the two, are you?

That's a really bad look. The one is a group of people fixated on their inability to get laid and the other are people who seek equal rights. Treating the two as a reasonable comparison is an unconscious admission of some deeply worrying attitudes.
RP Population: 1760//76 million//1920 104 million//1960 209 million//1992 238 million
81% Economic Leftist, 56% Anarchist, 79% Anti-Militarist, 89% Socio-Cultural Liberal, 73% Civil Libertarian
Privatization of collectively owned property is theft.
The Confederacy of Independent Socialist Republics
FACTBOOK
ART


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Kenowa
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Founded: Nov 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kenowa » Sat May 27, 2023 12:04 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Bradfordville wrote:
Is it even neo-Misogyny? It isn't like old school sexism officially died for a while, it's just the latest iteration of bigotry to take hold in a new generation. I'd say calling people who demonize women "sexists" is fairly sufficient.

An accurate, if needlessly broad label.

Yeah. Sexist is someone that hates a gender. There are instances where it is correct to just call someone "sexist" without context if they straight up hate every single gender, somehow. But that's just semantics ;)
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Kenowa
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Founded: Nov 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kenowa » Sat May 27, 2023 12:05 pm

Soviet Haaregrad wrote:
Kenowa wrote:Incels are bad people? In my opinion, yes. Feminists are bad people? In my opinion, yes.


You're not seriously comparing the two, are you?

That's a really bad look. The one is a group of people fixated on their inability to get laid and the other are people who seek equal rights. Treating the two as a reasonable comparison is an unconscious admission of some deeply worrying attitudes.

I spent two paragraphs in the OP doing so. What worrying attitudes do you think I am admiting?
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"Prosperity Through Community"

He/Him, 17, Apparently a fascist, Argentinean
“We must create a kind of globalization that works for everyone and not just for a few.”
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Bradfordville
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Founded: Apr 30, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby Bradfordville » Sat May 27, 2023 12:08 pm

Stellar Colonies wrote:
Bradfordville wrote:
Is it even neo-Misogyny? It isn't like old school sexism officially died for a while, it's just the latest iteration of bigotry to take hold in a new generation. I'd say calling people who demonize women "sexists" is fairly sufficient.

An accurate, if needlessly broad label.


I just don't see the point of the neo prefix. There's nothing new about it, it's just the same old misogyny as before. We never got over that problem, and I think unlike with racism, society even had to admit that we never fixed that problem for even a few years.
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Bradfordville
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Postby Bradfordville » Sat May 27, 2023 12:08 pm

Kenowa wrote:
Soviet Haaregrad wrote:
You're not seriously comparing the two, are you?

That's a really bad look. The one is a group of people fixated on their inability to get laid and the other are people who seek equal rights. Treating the two as a reasonable comparison is an unconscious admission of some deeply worrying attitudes.

I spent two paragraphs in the OP doing so. What worrying attitudes do you think I am admiting?


That you think women's rights are on par with men whining about not attracting a woman (and proceeding to fantasize about acts of violence against women as revenge).
Never ask a man his salary, a woman her age, or C.C. DeVille to play a guitar solo.

Eternal Algerstonia wrote:there are no patriots or globalists in russia, just idiots

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Juansonia
Minister
 
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Founded: Apr 01, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Juansonia » Sat May 27, 2023 12:11 pm

Bradfordville wrote:
Juansonia wrote:I am confused as to how the term "incel" has been so thuroughly been disconnected from its etymology that it's just another word for "neo-misogynist".

The term "incel" was first used self-descriptively by a woman, and it simply refered to those who, due to involuntary factors (getting turned down, lack of opportunity, etc.) ended up celibate.

Now, it's a term used for "woman-hater", and it's often used derogatorily for the most batshit insane reasons possible. Hell, at least 3 men got called incels because they turned down a woman's advances.

I'm guessing that, since the term was first coined, the spaces which used that term became more male-focused, and that got to a point where someone got the idea of blaming women for rejection. Eventually, that idea became dominant and developed into several worldviews (taking inspiration from discredited wolf studies and misunderstood trans allegories), until the idea of a woman being an "incel" was absurd.

"Neo-misogynist" is the word that many in this thread should be using. Don't call a bulldozer a spade.
Is it even neo-Misogyny? It isn't like old school sexism officially died for a while, it's just the latest iteration of bigotry to take hold in a new generation. I'd say calling people who demonize women "sexists" is fairly sufficient.
Even if I overlook how "sexism" and "misogyny" aren't equivelant, I see a distinction between "neo-misogyny" and "paleo-misogyny".

Paleo-misogyny is the belief that women are, either due to tradition, religion, or some other old factor, women are inherently/supposed to be subservient to men, and any hatred of women is a response to women resisting that subservience. Paleo-misogyny is defined by a sense of superiority in natural, moral, and social aspects.

Neo-misogyny is hatred as a means of "lashing out" against women having what is perceived as an unfair advantage. Common claims are that women have greater control of the dating scene, that divorce proceedings tend to unfairly favor women, or that laws on domestic violence and sex crimes are enforced in a way that effectively makes men second-class citizens. Nothing about those claims is neo-misogynistic except for when they are used to further hate against (or opression of) women in general.

While they are similar in effect (both have end results of woman-hating and woman-opressing), they are different in their causes and motives. Therefore, different meausres must be taken to curb these forms of bigotry.
Last edited by Juansonia on Sat May 27, 2023 12:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Hatsune Miku > British Imperialism
IC: MT if you ignore some stuff(mostly flavor), stats are not canon. Embassy link.
OOC: Owns and (sometimes) wears a maid outfit, wants to pair it with a FN SCAR-L. He/Him/His
Space Squid wrote:Each sin should get it's own month.

Right now, Pride gets June, and Greed, Envy, and Gluttony have to share Thanksgiving/Black Friday through Christmas, Sloth gets one day in September, and Lust gets one day in February.

It's not equitable at all
Gandoor wrote:Cliché: A mod making a reply that's full of swearing after someone asks if you're allowed to swear on this site.

It makes me chuckle every time it happens.
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Equai
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Founded: Mar 05, 2022
Liberal Democratic Socialists

Postby Equai » Sat May 27, 2023 12:12 pm

Kenowa wrote:
Soviet Haaregrad wrote:
You're not seriously comparing the two, are you?

That's a really bad look. The one is a group of people fixated on their inability to get laid and the other are people who seek equal rights. Treating the two as a reasonable comparison is an unconscious admission of some deeply worrying attitudes.

I spent two paragraphs in the OP doing so. What worrying attitudes do you think I am admiting?

Admitting that you have no fucking idea what feminist actually is outside of far-right caricature of "men hating women". Feminism is not the same as incel-shitfuckery you are subscribed to and the way you describe feminism just shows which team are you playing.
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Rakhalia
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Founded: Jul 27, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Rakhalia » Sat May 27, 2023 12:12 pm

how about no
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X3nder Tech
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Corporate Police State

Postby X3nder Tech » Sat May 27, 2023 12:12 pm

Equai wrote:TLDR thread: Men trying to present themselves as victims (again)

OOC: Women have actually full rights in countries of the world like the european states, united states, etc, the places were feminists need to focus more are places like the middle east where women are ACTUALLY represed, not places already liberated like Europe, some women have actually better salary than average man, some men are being ACTUALLY maltreated by their wifes, I think we are going to a society where the papers of men>women are being inversed and in few years will be men<women, I want equal rights for all, not put the balance more easy to a group.
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Rakhalia
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Postby Rakhalia » Sat May 27, 2023 12:13 pm

X3nder Tech wrote:
Equai wrote:TLDR thread: Men trying to present themselves as victims (again)

the places were feminists need to focus more are places like the middle east where women are ACTUALLY represed

ok man i'm gonna go call up the crown prince of saudi arabia right now
I have no doubt that the revolution will triumph. The people of the world will prevail,
seize power, seize the means of production, wipe out racism, capitalism.

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Kenowa
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Posts: 319
Founded: Nov 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kenowa » Sat May 27, 2023 12:13 pm

Bradfordville wrote:
Kenowa wrote:I spent two paragraphs in the OP doing so. What worrying attitudes do you think I am admiting?


That you think women's rights are on par with men whining about not attracting a woman (and proceeding to fantasize about acts of violence against women as revenge).

Incels fight for men's right, in the worst way possible, yes, but they do. Maybe they are not the best example to be honest, but MRAs are a bit more grounded on reality. MRAs fight for important matters such as preventing male mutilation (that somehow the west normalized??) and trying to improve men's rights in the courtroom, but of course feminists hate them and they hate feminism back.

Their ideas aren't even opposed to each other and their ideologies are fully compatible, but they hate each other for no reason other than for stealing supporters from themselves.
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He/Him, 17, Apparently a fascist, Argentinean
“We must create a kind of globalization that works for everyone and not just for a few.”
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Kenowa
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Posts: 319
Founded: Nov 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kenowa » Sat May 27, 2023 12:14 pm

Equai wrote:TLDR thread: Men trying to present themselves as victims (again)

Everyone is the victim in this situation. Even men.
✿ Co Dimokratiá Tde Kenowa ★
"Prosperity Through Community"

He/Him, 17, Apparently a fascist, Argentinean
“We must create a kind of globalization that works for everyone and not just for a few.”
Nestor Kirchner

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X3nder Tech
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Founded: Mar 09, 2023
Corporate Police State

Postby X3nder Tech » Sat May 27, 2023 12:15 pm

Rakhalia wrote:
X3nder Tech wrote:the places were feminists need to focus more are places like the middle east where women are ACTUALLY represed

ok man i'm gonna go call up the crown prince of saudi arabia right now

???
Central american man addict to sci-fi cyberpunk films, oh and also obssesed with Xender's GD levels.
A all powerfull company with eyes everywhere and has a chair in a even worst government, we don't care with who we make shipments, we only want MONEY.
A all powerfull intergalactic corporation originally named "X3nder Industries.CO" that for some reason has a chair in his country's government.

The Corporation grows, your welfare grows!
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Kenowa
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Posts: 319
Founded: Nov 19, 2018
Ex-Nation

Postby Kenowa » Sat May 27, 2023 12:15 pm

Rakhalia wrote:
X3nder Tech wrote:the places were feminists need to focus more are places like the middle east where women are ACTUALLY represed

ok man i'm gonna go call up the crown prince of saudi arabia right now

omg woman using phone?!?! Witchcraft!
✿ Co Dimokratiá Tde Kenowa ★
"Prosperity Through Community"

He/Him, 17, Apparently a fascist, Argentinean
“We must create a kind of globalization that works for everyone and not just for a few.”
Nestor Kirchner

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