Ukrainian War VI: Pyrrhus in Bakhmut

[Bagiyagaram]

I'm rather partial to Ukraine's plan to only deport the post-2014 imperial settlers and no one else. That way, the original pre-2014 inhabitants can still remain. Ukrainians who have been forcibly given Russian citizenship will also continue to be recognized as Ukrainian citizens.

I'd also support the opening of Crimea to Crimean Tatars and other ethnic groups that had been forcefully expelled from the peninsula.

[Northern Seleucia]

i think ukraine likes their new missiles

I would like them too...

...if only I can get a hold of some.

[Adamede]

Somehow Russia takes 9 months to capture Bakhmut and the Freedom Of Russia Legion takes like 6 hours to capture 2 villages. Shows just how bad Russia is at waging war.

Almost true, if we exclude the fact that it was not the Free Russia Legion, which is only on paper, since Ilya Ponomarev's concept of the collapse of Russia is supported only by freaks in the Russian emigre opposition (who are sitting on Western grants and dreaming of a nuclear strike on Moscow, see interview Kasparov Dudyu) by the type of Kasparov. This is the nationalist "Russian Volunteer Corps"

That sounds like a load of crap to me.

[Adamede]

But i'd absolutely hold that in the case of a Russian-Ukrainian peace negotiation, the most likely way for this to end, Crimea should at the very least have the right to another referendum on there position, or, if it comes to it, be allowed to remain in Russia.

We can absolutely have a Russian Crimea... if it remains 100% demilitarised so as to never form the springboard to another imperialist and colonialist war again.

Given the presence of Russia's Sevastapol naval base that'll never happen.

[Ostroeuropa]

UCU (The union for university lecturers and professors) has passed a motion condemning Zelensky and calling for an immediate halt of aid to Ukraine.

Members of the University and Colleges Union (UCU), which has been holding its Congress at Glasgow's SEC, backed a motion accusing President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of wanting the country to become an “armed, illiberal outpost of US imperialism”.

+

An amendment to tone down the motion, including deleting the comment about Zelenskyy and including a section calling for a peaceful resolution to the conflict “based on freedom and independence for Ukraine” was defeated.

+

Dr Yuliya Yurchenko, of Greenwich University, tweeted: “To colleagues compelled (like me) to just leave the union: let's stay and fight this.

“We can't grant red-brown tankies (or managers hoping to weaken the union) the satisfaction nor the upper hand. They won't defeat us.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23554 ... s-ukraine/

https://roarnews.co.uk/2023/ucu-congres ... g-ukraine/

Bare in mind this implies that the majority of UK academics are pro-russian stooges. Ofcourse "Marxist infiltration of universities to destroy the west" is just a conspiracy theory apparently.

[Stellar Colonies]

UCU (The union for university lecturers and professors) has passed a motion condemning Zelensky and calling for an immediate halt of aid to Ukraine.

Members of the University and Colleges Union (UCU), which has been holding its Congress at Glasgow's SEC, backed a motion accusing President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of wanting the country to become an “armed, illiberal outpost of US imperialism”.

+

Dr Yuliya Yurchenko, of Greenwich University, tweeted: “To colleagues compelled (like me) to just leave the union: let's stay and fight this.

“We can't grant red-brown tankies (or managers hoping to weaken the union) the satisfaction nor the upper hand. They won't defeat us.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23554 ... s-ukraine/

https://roarnews.co.uk/2023/ucu-congres ... g-ukraine/

Bare in mind this implies that the majority of UK academics are pro-russian stooges. Ofcourse "Marxist infiltration of universities to destroy the west" is just a conspiracy theory apparently.

How much exactly does Marxism have to do with post-Soviet Russia?

[Bradfordville]

UCU (The union for university lecturers and professors) has passed a motion condemning Zelensky and calling for an immediate halt of aid to Ukraine.

Members of the University and Colleges Union (UCU), which has been holding its Congress at Glasgow's SEC, backed a motion accusing President Volodymyr Zelenskyy of wanting the country to become an “armed, illiberal outpost of US imperialism”.

+

An amendment to tone down the motion, including deleting the comment about Zelenskyy and including a section calling for a peaceful resolution to the conflict “based on freedom and independence for Ukraine” was defeated.

+

Dr Yuliya Yurchenko, of Greenwich University, tweeted: “To colleagues compelled (like me) to just leave the union: let's stay and fight this.

“We can't grant red-brown tankies (or managers hoping to weaken the union) the satisfaction nor the upper hand. They won't defeat us.”

https://www.thenational.scot/news/23554 ... s-ukraine/

https://roarnews.co.uk/2023/ucu-congres ... g-ukraine/

Bare in mind this implies that the majority of UK academics are pro-russian stooges. Ofcourse "Marxist infiltration of universities to destroy the west" is just a conspiracy theory apparently.

They don't want ukraine to become an imperial outpost of the United States, so they'd rather it become an imperial outpost of Vladimir Putin. Real cool UCU.

[Ostroeuropa]

UCU (The union for university lecturers and professors) has passed a motion condemning Zelensky and calling for an immediate halt of aid to Ukraine.



+



https://www.thenational.scot/news/23554 ... s-ukraine/

https://roarnews.co.uk/2023/ucu-congres ... g-ukraine/

Bare in mind this implies that the majority of UK academics are pro-russian stooges. Ofcourse "Marxist infiltration of universities to destroy the west" is just a conspiracy theory apparently.

How much exactly does Marxism have to do with post-Soviet Russia?

The soviet ideology is an offshoot of Marxism and can demonstrably be used to basically just mean "I hate the west" which Marxist thought invites as a result of its precepts. Russia is still a marxist country. Marxist-Putinism. Much like Dengism and China's form of Marxism.

This is why Marxists like Chomsky agree with him more often than they agree with the west. Marxism demonstrably produces immoral societies which justify brutality in the belief that so long as they are murdering millions of people and engaged in widespread war crimes and sins in order to acquire power, it is justified as part of a "Revolution" against the western order. They have no morality beyond the pursuit of power and hatred of the west and desire to see it destroyed. It is only after this apocalyptic destruction of the west that they *might* then decide to have something resembling a conscience.

I invite you to at least consider this viewpoint and address it rather than dismissing it out of hand, especially given that "The pursuit of power under the pretext of defeating the enemy is the only value we care about" was noted about Marxists by Orwell too. Additionally, the Tankie predeliction to "American Diabolism" is on much firmer ground than the above suggestion, especially given that these infiltrations of our academic institutions have gone on for decades and decades, so even with the collapse of the soviet union their outposts in western institutions remain.

When the soviets collapsed, we shouldn't have declared victory. We should have declared a new red scare to destroy the remnants. The number of problems the west faces as a result of 'insufficient persecution of communists' is not zero, much like some believe. The UCU openly doing this shit is one example.

How precisely are we supposed to take any of their geopolitical academic work seriously from now on?

[Raskana]

How much exactly does Marxism have to do with post-Soviet Russia?

The soviet ideology is an offshoot of Marxism and can demonstrably be used to basically just mean "I hate the west" which Marxist thought invites as a result of its precepts. Russia is still a marxist country. Marxist-Putinism. Much like Dengism and China's form of Marxism.

This is why Marxists like Chomsky agree with him more often than they agree with the west. Marxism demonstrably produces immoral societies which justify brutality in the belief that so long as they are murdering millions of people and engaged in widespread war crimes and sins in order to acquire power, it is justified as part of a "Revolution" against the western order. They have no morality beyond the pursuit of power and hatred of the west and desire to see it destroyed. It is only after this apocalyptic destruction of the west that they *might* then decide to have something resembling a conscience.

I invite you to at least consider this viewpoint and address it rather than dismissing it out of hand. Additionally, the Tankie predeliction to "American Diabolism" is on much firmer ground than the above suggestion, especially given that these infiltrations of our academic institutions have gone on for decades and decades, so even with the collapse of the soviet union their outposts in western institutions remain.

When the soviets collapsed, we shouldn't have declared victory. We should have declared a new red scare to destroy the remnants.

In other words push for an actual democratically elected government, rather than a KGB run oligarchy?

[Ostroeuropa]

The soviet ideology is an offshoot of Marxism and can demonstrably be used to basically just mean "I hate the west" which Marxist thought invites as a result of its precepts. Russia is still a marxist country. Marxist-Putinism. Much like Dengism and China's form of Marxism.

This is why Marxists like Chomsky agree with him more often than they agree with the west. Marxism demonstrably produces immoral societies which justify brutality in the belief that so long as they are murdering millions of people and engaged in widespread war crimes and sins in order to acquire power, it is justified as part of a "Revolution" against the western order. They have no morality beyond the pursuit of power and hatred of the west and desire to see it destroyed. It is only after this apocalyptic destruction of the west that they *might* then decide to have something resembling a conscience.

I invite you to at least consider this viewpoint and address it rather than dismissing it out of hand. Additionally, the Tankie predeliction to "American Diabolism" is on much firmer ground than the above suggestion, especially given that these infiltrations of our academic institutions have gone on for decades and decades, so even with the collapse of the soviet union their outposts in western institutions remain.

When the soviets collapsed, we shouldn't have declared victory. We should have declared a new red scare to destroy the remnants.

In other words push for an actual democratically elected government, rather than a KGB run oligarchy?

That, as well as purged universities and other institutions of communists and communist sympathizers.

[Raskana]

In other words push for an actual democratically elected government, rather than a KGB run oligarchy?

That, as well as purged universities and other institutions of communists and communist sympathizers.

In other words, make it a felony, just like endorsing the ideals of WW2 fascism?

But now that we are here, I think we should support Ukraine with military means, which should cause a collapse of the Putin regime.

[Ostroeuropa]

That, as well as purged universities and other institutions of communists and communist sympathizers.

In other words, make it a felony, just like endorsing the ideals of WW2 fascism?

But now that we are here, I think we should support Ukraine with military means, which should cause a collapse of the Putin regime.

Yes pretty much. We should support Ukraine in their struggle, absolutely. It is self-evident.

[Raskana]

In other words, make it a felony, just like endorsing the ideals of WW2 fascism?

But now that we are here, I think we should support Ukraine with military means, which should cause a collapse of the Putin regime.

Yes pretty much. We should support Ukraine in their struggle, absolutely. It is self-evident.

How do you think this conflict will end though?

[Ostroeuropa]

Yes pretty much. We should support Ukraine in their struggle, absolutely. It is self-evident.

How do you think this conflict will end though?

Ukraine will push Russia out of Ukraine. At that point Russia will have to negotiate the lifting of sanctions, likely returning the kidnapped children in exchange for them. The war criminals will not be prosecuted, and Ukraine will insist Russia owes it money which will ultimately not be paid. Ukraine will join NATO and the EU, and we'll celebrate while the stooges in our societies seethe, and then just like last time we'll forget about them instead of doing the work to finish the job.

They'll continue to undermine our society and foster conflict and division as a fifth column until the next country tries to attack the west, and then they'll back them again, ad infinitum, until we decide to deal with them once and for all.

[Raskana]

How do you think this conflict will end though?

Ukraine will push Russia out of Ukraine. At that point Russia will have to negotiate the lifting of sanctions, likely returning the kidnapped children in exchange for them. The war criminals will not be prosecuted, and Ukraine will insist Russia owes it money which will ultimately not be paid. Ukraine will join NATO and the EU, and we'll celebrate while the stooges in our societies seethe, and then just like last time we'll forget about them instead of doing the work to finish the job.

They'll continue to undermine our society and foster conflict and division as a fifth column until the next country tries to attack the west, and then they'll back them again, ad infinitum, until we decide to deal with them once and for all.

And the opposition in Russia itself?

[Ostroeuropa]

Ukraine will push Russia out of Ukraine. At that point Russia will have to negotiate the lifting of sanctions, likely returning the kidnapped children in exchange for them. The war criminals will not be prosecuted, and Ukraine will insist Russia owes it money which will ultimately not be paid. Ukraine will join NATO and the EU, and we'll celebrate while the stooges in our societies seethe, and then just like last time we'll forget about them instead of doing the work to finish the job.

They'll continue to undermine our society and foster conflict and division as a fifth column until the next country tries to attack the west, and then they'll back them again, ad infinitum, until we decide to deal with them once and for all.

And the opposition in Russia itself?

I don't expect it will achieve much. At most we will see a controlled oppositional takeover. I'd like to be proven wrong but I doubt it.

[Raskana]

And the opposition in Russia itself?

I don't expect it will achieve much. At most we will see a controlled oppositional takeover. I'd like to be proven wrong but I doubt it.

I agree, though I think that depends if the sanctions are lifted or not, if this economic upheaval lasts post war, Putin's regime wont.

[Bradfordville]

Ukraine will push Russia out of Ukraine. At that point Russia will have to negotiate the lifting of sanctions, likely returning the kidnapped children in exchange for them. The war criminals will not be prosecuted, and Ukraine will insist Russia owes it money which will ultimately not be paid. Ukraine will join NATO and the EU, and we'll celebrate while the stooges in our societies seethe, and then just like last time we'll forget about them instead of doing the work to finish the job.

They'll continue to undermine our society and foster conflict and division as a fifth column until the next country tries to attack the west, and then they'll back them again, ad infinitum, until we decide to deal with them once and for all.

And the opposition in Russia itself?

Some of them honestly make putin look like Jimmy Carter by comparison. Unfortunately Russian society in its current state is not a place where liberal democracy will thrive. At best, it'll remain a weakened and battered country with a decimated military that can no longer harm its neighbors. At worst, it'll become an even more right wing, less reasonable pariah state that wages a new ukraine war every few years.

[Ostroeuropa]

I don't expect it will achieve much. At most we will see a controlled oppositional takeover. I'd like to be proven wrong but I doubt it.

I agree, though I think that depends if the sanctions are lifted or not, if this economic upheaval lasts post war, Putin's regime wont.

Even then I expect we'd just see somebody Putin's allies find appealing present himself as "The man to stop Putin", take over, and then run things broadly the same as before. I do not think there are systemic solutions to Russia's issues that don't involve the violent overthrow of the government or a prolonged period of irrelevance in the international order and comparative stability.

The possibility of an "In-house" enlightenment by the Russian elite that leads them to reform the system is not likely when their very existence as a class is on the line.

[Raskana]

I agree, though I think that depends if the sanctions are lifted or not, if this economic upheaval lasts post war, Putin's regime wont.

Even then I expect we'd just see somebody Putin's allies find appealing present himself as "The man to stop Putin", take over, and then run things broadly the same as before. I do not think there are systemic solutions to Russia's issues that don't involve the violent overthrow of the government.

How high do you guess the chances of a violent overthrow of the government?

[Ostroeuropa]

Even then I expect we'd just see somebody Putin's allies find appealing present himself as "The man to stop Putin", take over, and then run things broadly the same as before. I do not think there are systemic solutions to Russia's issues that don't involve the violent overthrow of the government.

How high do you guess the chances of a violent overthrow of the government?

Basically zero. Undertaking the task would require foreign aid and nobody is going to do it, because nukes. The alternative is an in-house enlightenment of the Russian elite but that requires them to be rendered an insignificant backwater and left alone and stagnating for a while until in a generation or two one of them pipes up;

"You know, if we weren't such massive arseholes, we might be able to make more money.". They're not going to try that when their very existence as a class is on the line. Instead they'll devote their efforts to maintaining the current system.

Tentatively i'd suggest that's basically what Euromaidan was. Ukrainian civilians and some Ukrainian elites concluding after a period of irrelevance and relative stability that reform was in their interest. I don't think it would have occurred if the existence of Ukrainian Elites as a class was under serious threat rather than it being a civil war between elites and the people picking a side. There was also no Ukrainian geopolitical stock in retaining the old system like there is in Russia who basically heads a faction in the global order... for now.

[Raskana]

How high do you guess the chances of a violent overthrow of the government?

Basically zero. Undertaking the task would require foreign aid and nobody is going to do it, because nukes. The alternative is an in-house enlightenment of the Russian elite but that requires them to be rendered an insignificant backwater and left alone and stagnating for a while until in a generation or two one of them pipes up;

"You know, if we weren't such massive arseholes, we might be able to make more money.". They're not going to try that when their very existence as a class is on the line. Instead they'll devote their efforts to maintaining the current system.

Tentatively i'd suggest that's basically what Euromaidan was. Ukrainian civilians and some Ukrainian elites concluding after a period of irrelevance and relative stability that reform was in their interest. I don't think it would have occurred if the existence of Ukrainian Elites as a class was under serious threat rather than it being a civil war between elites and the people picking a side.

Ukraine supports an armed opposition group, why should they stop when the war ends?, unless its part of the peace deal.

[Ostroeuropa]

Basically zero. Undertaking the task would require foreign aid and nobody is going to do it, because nukes. The alternative is an in-house enlightenment of the Russian elite but that requires them to be rendered an insignificant backwater and left alone and stagnating for a while until in a generation or two one of them pipes up;

"You know, if we weren't such massive arseholes, we might be able to make more money.". They're not going to try that when their very existence as a class is on the line. Instead they'll devote their efforts to maintaining the current system.

Tentatively i'd suggest that's basically what Euromaidan was. Ukrainian civilians and some Ukrainian elites concluding after a period of irrelevance and relative stability that reform was in their interest. I don't think it would have occurred if the existence of Ukrainian Elites as a class was under serious threat rather than it being a civil war between elites and the people picking a side.

Ukraine supports an armed opposition group, why should they stop when the war ends?, unless its part of the peace deal.

That's an interesting suggestion. I'd have to think about it. I'm not opposed to it on principle.

[Raskana]

Ukraine supports an armed opposition group, why should they stop when the war ends?, unless its part of the peace deal.

That's an interesting suggestion. I'd have to think about it. I'm not opposed to it on principle.

After all, they have plausible deniability, they have a lot of old Soviet equipment, and they will probably replace it all after the war.

[Lativs]

How much exactly does Marxism have to do with post-Soviet Russia?

The soviet ideology is an offshoot of Marxism and can demonstrably be used to basically just mean "I hate the west" which Marxist thought invites as a result of its precepts. Russia is still a marxist country. Marxist-Putinism. Much like Dengism and China's form of Marxism.

This is why Marxists like Chomsky agree with him more often than they agree with the west. Marxism demonstrably produces immoral societies which justify brutality in the belief that so long as they are murdering millions of people and engaged in widespread war crimes and sins in order to acquire power, it is justified as part of a "Revolution" against the western order. They have no morality beyond the pursuit of power and hatred of the west and desire to see it destroyed. It is only after this apocalyptic destruction of the west that they *might* then decide to have something resembling a conscience.

I invite you to at least consider this viewpoint and address it rather than dismissing it out of hand, especially given that "The pursuit of power under the pretext of defeating the enemy is the only value we care about" was noted about Marxists by Orwell too. Additionally, the Tankie predeliction to "American Diabolism" is on much firmer ground than the above suggestion, especially given that these infiltrations of our academic institutions have gone on for decades and decades, so even with the collapse of the soviet union their outposts in western institutions remain.

When the soviets collapsed, we shouldn't have declared victory. We should have declared a new red scare to destroy the remnants. The number of problems the west faces as a result of 'insufficient persecution of communists' is not zero, much like some believe. The UCU openly doing this shit is one example.

How precisely are we supposed to take any of their geopolitical academic work seriously from now on?

Let's start with this, ideology is not a Lego constructor, and not a picture of a symbolist where everyone finds something of their own. This is a specific set of stamps and messages that determine the political course of the country. In the case of Marxism, the only justification for the bourgeois state is blind submission to the bourgeois class and the struggle by the forces of the state for new markets. The socialist state exists for the purpose of bringing world communism closer. Modern Russia does not strive for world communism, and does not see the nature of serving capital in the existence of other countries. The rhetoric is a mixture of the ultra-liberals of the school of Anatoly Chubais and the right-wing patriots of Russia of the 90s (yes, the Fatherland movement, Russia is our home, which are the constituent parts of the ruling United Russia party, are national-liberal in nature). Moreover, the word liberalism has a purely economic character, like the liberalism of Pinochet and many other Latin American rulers. In the Russian emigration, "the element of uncontrolled destructive and self-destructive sustainable idea" was simply called Bolshevism, hence National Bolshevism. But even this formulation is only a fantasy of emigration, but at least somehow explainable, in contrast to the hypothesis about Marxism-Putinism.