Australian police taze 97-yo granny with a walking frame

[Risottia]

But she was armed and dangerous. She had a steak knife while with her walking frame she advanced threateningly towards the officers!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-65642974

I find it laughable that a police officer with 12 years of experience isn't even able to take a steak knife from the hand of an elderly woman with a walking frame and resorts to tazing her into falling so hard that she's basically on the brink of death.
When such an officer will be confronted with, dunno, a 6-yo boy running after stealing his pal's bike, or a speeding car, what will he do? Call in RAAF F/A-18 for some strafing, or maybe a JDAM would be more appropriate?

How come so often the police forces in the Anglosphere look so badly trained and so unable to use the minimum level of force?

[Edush]

These are some really sad news that actually make you question who are the people we base ourselves on when we need protection and someone to literally save our lives...

Unfortunately, not only the police forces in the Anglosphere seem to be badly trained, this is a thing happening in a lot of places. Actually, I can't even really think of countries with impeccably trained policemen.

[Risottia]

These are some really sad news that actually make you question who are the people we base ourselves on when we need protection and someone to literally save our lives...

Unfortunately, not only the police forces in the Anglosphere seem to be badly trained, this is a thing happening in a lot of places. Actually, I can't even really think of countries with impeccably trained policemen.

...can, though.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

[Edush]

These are some really sad news that actually make you question who are the people we base ourselves on when we need protection and someone to literally save our lives...

Unfortunately, not only the police forces in the Anglosphere seem to be badly trained, this is a thing happening in a lot of places. Actually, I can't even really think of countries with impeccably trained policemen.

...can, though.
https://worldpopulationreview.com/count ... by-country

I missed your point here. I can't understand what you are referring to by using "can"

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Just shocking.

[The Selkie]

Just shocking.

...well, is there anything more then one can say?

On a more serious note, we do not know enough to make a judgement. Was she about to swing at a care staffer and the officer saw tasering her as the only option or were they five metres apart, for starters?
It is sad to hear, that this lady, which apparently was regarded fondly by her community, was tasered and might not make it - that is without question. It is, however, good to hear, that the New South Wales Police is investigating for misbehaviour of anyone involved, including their own officers - that, too, is without question.
But, as said, we simply lack information to pass judgement.

[...]
Unfortunately, not only the police forces in the Anglosphere seem to be badly trained, this is a thing happening in a lot of places. Actually, I can't even really think of countries with impeccably trained policemen.

Define an "impeccably trained policem[a]n", please.

[Edush]

[...]
Unfortunately, not only the police forces in the Anglosphere seem to be badly trained, this is a thing happening in a lot of places. Actually, I can't even really think of countries with impeccably trained policemen.

Define an "impeccably trained policem[a]n", please.

Well, in this context, I think an impeccably trained police force refers to the fact that policemen and policewomen need to be constantly trained physically and psychologically throughout their entire careers, so that events like this occur as rarely as possible. A police officer shouldn't resort to tazing a 97 year old person in pretty much no context I can imagine (maybe only in some really extreme instances). The OP and I were talking about the fact that, not only in the Angloshere, police officers seem to be reliant on brutality in a lot of cases when it really is not needed.

[Saiwana]

The police are incentivized to use more force and not less, because they're prone to possibly being fired if they don't maintain control over suspects at all times. Getting too close and taking a risk, that might turn out okay, but because they're within stabbing range they're more likely to be dismissed if breaking with protocol- even if the expected rules are stupid.

[Page]

I'd chalk it up to cowardice. Basically, police officers tend to believe they have the right to use extreme force as a prophylactic measure against a small risk of suffering bodily harm.

I have a cat who can get a little bit psycho sometimes and he'll occassionally bite me and grab with both paws and the little fucker will sometimes bunny kick or even chew. I know I could use force against him and he would instantly dislodge and run away, but I don't want to hurt my cat and I don't want him to be afraid of me, so my first resort is to stay still and see if he disengages of his own accord, and if not, a yell will suffice. Absolutely worst case scenario I might whack him with a magazine, but I've never done that and don't expect I'll ever have to. See, I know that the odds of him hurting me bad enough to even need to go get stitches are extremely low and the odds of me ending up in the ER are practically zero.

But the mentality of a cop is such that "if this cat MIGHT inflict a wound on me that will bleed for a minute and itch for a few days, I am justified in killing it." That's how they operate with animals and people, even children. And there's no other word to describe that mentality but cowardice. You might call it selfishness but while not all selfishness involves cowardice, all cowardice involves selfishness. Cowardice is motivated by the belief that your own well-being is intractably paramount.

It's also that they don't even consider the option of taking their time. Imagine if the next time a mentally ill man was walking around with a knife in hand, the police parked their car 10 meters away, rolled down their window just enough to get their voice through, and from behind the locked door of their cop car they just started talking to the guy. If the guy charges, you can always drive away. Imagine if they called up their colleagues and somebody came and put a cold bottle of water down on the street that the guy could drink from. Or if the dude was even half way in touch with reality, they could be like "you're clearly upset right now, do you want a Valium?" And actually fucking give the guy a Valium and then a half hour later he's sitting down and a lot more lucid.

But they don't choose these options because they think if they give somebody a command to put down the knife and get on the ground, they can either obey at once or they can get fucked up. They won't tolerate disobedience even if the person is out of touch with reality. Because besides being cowardly, they are entitled. They can't handle shit that restaurant servers and nurses and teachers handle every day, they can't handle putting up with difficulty.

[Haganham]

I'd chalk it up to cowardice. Basically, police officers tend to believe they have the right to use extreme force as a prophylactic measure against a small risk of suffering bodily harm.

I have a cat who can get a little bit psycho sometimes and he'll occassionally bite me and grab with both paws and the little fucker will sometimes bunny kick or even chew. I know I could use force against him and he would instantly dislodge and run away, but I don't want to hurt my cat and I don't want him to be afraid of me, so my first resort is to stay still and see if he disengages of his own accord, and if not, a yell will suffice. Absolutely worst case scenario I might whack him with a magazine, but I've never done that and don't expect I'll ever have to. See, I know that the odds of him hurting me bad enough to even need to go get stitches are extremely low and the odds of me ending up in the ER are practically zero.

But the mentality of a cop is such that "if this cat MIGHT inflict a wound on me that will bleed for a minute and itch for a few days, I am justified in killing it." That's how they operate with animals and people, even children. And there's no other word to describe that mentality but cowardice. You might call it selfishness but while not all selfishness involves cowardice, all cowardice involves selfishness. Cowardice is motivated by the belief that your own well-being is intractably paramount.

It's also that they don't even consider the option of taking their time. Imagine if the next time a mentally ill man was walking around with a knife in hand, the police parked their car 10 meters away, rolled down their window just enough to get their voice through, and from behind the locked door of their cop car they just started talking to the guy. If the guy charges, you can always drive away. Imagine if they called up their colleagues and somebody came and put a cold bottle of water down on the street that the guy could drink from. Or if the dude was even half way in touch with reality, they could be like "you're clearly upset right now, do you want a Valium?" And actually fucking give the guy a Valium and then a half hour later he's sitting down and a lot more lucid.

But they don't choose these options because they think if they give somebody a command to put down the knife and get on the ground, they can either obey at once or they can get fucked up. They won't tolerate disobedience even if the person is out of touch with reality. Because besides being cowardly, they are entitled. They can't handle shit that restaurant servers and nurses and teachers handle every day, they can't handle putting up with difficulty.

Is it really reasonable to expect police to risk their safety? It's not like they are getting paid better then people in similarly skilled(lol) work that aren't expected to tolerate potential injuries. And while it is admittedly the fault of policing that it is the case, they aren't given the sort of recognition that firefighters are for the inherent dangers they must accept.

Right now the only real draw to policing is that it's a low skilled job with few consequences for stupidity, incompetence or misconduct. So it's going to attract the sort of people who want a job like that.
If we want a better caliber of police it's time to start paying for that.

[Saiwana]

Right now the only real draw to policing is that it's a low skilled job with few consequences for stupidity, incompetence or misconduct. So it's going to attract the sort of people who want a job like that. If we want a better caliber of police it's time to start paying for that.

The US military doesn't pay super well (unless if you're an Officer and not one of Enlisted ranks) and they allegedly do a far superior job at policing or adhering to better rules of engagement without unnecessary violence in the contexts that they do assume that role, like when occupying enemy territory. Let's have them do it instead, only enforcing a civilian code rather than a military one.

The problem is essentially that civilian police departments don't have the same or better standards where problematic officers can be dishonorably discharged. They're protected or covered for instead.

[Heavenly Assault]

But she was armed and dangerous. She had a steak knife while with her walking frame she advanced threateningly towards the officers!

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-australia-65642974

I find it laughable that a police officer with 12 years of experience isn't even able to take a steak knife from the hand of an elderly woman with a walking frame and resorts to tazing her into falling so hard that she's basically on the brink of death.
When such an officer will be confronted with, dunno, a 6-yo boy running after stealing his pal's bike, or a speeding car, what will he do? Call in RAAF F/A-18 for some strafing, or maybe a JDAM would be more appropriate?

How come so often the police forces in the Anglosphere look so badly trained and so unable to use the minimum level of force?

It's not about training. Police "work" is just a selection process for domesticated psychopathy. Law enforcement is by nature inherently deficient in intellect and character.

[Major-Tom]

They must've received their training in America.

[Forsher]

Page is probably right here, at least with the first bit. "Hmm, she's an old lady, but she could still, easily, kill or seriously hurt me, therefore I will use force". Where Page goes wrong is that Australian police carry guns, so using a taser is a reduction.

As to the suggestion that teachers deal with the situation... I'm not sure they do. They just take it and consequently quit in droves. And if they do try to use proportional force in response, they get fired. Hospital staff similarly just take it and have similarly terrible morale and this is implicated in the chronic staffing problems hospitals face. And, of course, failing all this... they just call the police, so instead of the story being "nurses break 95 year old dementia patient's arm" we get "Australian police taze 97-yo granny with a walking frame".

This woman had dementia. Unless they threw a net over her or lassooed her, it is quite possible this was never going to end well. People with dementia often refuse to eat or struggle to do so. They are often incapable of being reasoned with. If they're also 95, it's quite possible even someone risking personal injury would end up breaking multiple bones trying to physically disarm them. We'd still be reading this post in any of these situations... just with a different title.

Look, I suspect that with this woman, if they'd had the patience to stand around for a few hours, there was little chance of anyone'e being hurt... but it almost certainly comes down to "I have a taser, it's a non-lethal option, if just talking this out was enough, we would not have been called, therefore I should use the taser instead of risking injury to myself".

Look, unless this care home had a "call the police if anyone wields a knife, no matter how non-threatening the situation", all we actually know about this situation is that this seemingly absurd situation threatened someone enough to call the police. And unless someone woke up with the intention of tasering a very elderly woman, when the police arrived they also found it threatening, albeit with the caveat that maybe we expect the police to risk life and limb in a way we don't of care home workers.

But also, can you imagine, "Australian police trap 97-year old granny with walking frame in net"?

[Hispida]

i really, really, really wanna say i'm surprised...

...but it's the police.

[Australian rePublic]

I will wait for the police to finish their investigation into the matter as I am fully versed at how irrational and agitated dementia patients can get because my grandmother has dementia, and if she had a knife, I wouldn't put it past her to stab someone if she had a spell. Which then begs the question- how in the fuck did a dementia patient get access to a steak knife? If my grandmother's nursing home allowed her access to a fucking steak knife, I would raise hell. I hope they're charged with extreme negligence. As this happened in my home state of New South Wales, of which Sydney, my home city is the capital, if the nursing home isn't held accountable, I'm contemplating staging a protest. Allowing a dimentia patient access to a knife is inexcusable negligence. I'll wait for the investigation, but I can't blame the cops too much at this stage until I know all the details- if people with dimentia weren't frail, they could be dangerous. Their frailness is the only thing stopping them from being dangerous, but that's why we don't allow them to have fucking knives. Irrespective of the actions of the police, the nursing home is ultimately responsible here. I would say that I'm surprised by the level of negligence, but...

I mean, despite still having enough cognitive function to know who I am, my grandmother probably would have stabbed me a few times had she had the chance, or even stabbed herself or the other staff. Which is why we don't allow her to have fucking knives. Negligence. I'm pissed off with the nursing home

i really, really, really wanna say i'm surprised...

...but it's the police.

This is actually quite rare in Australia

[Ventura Bay]

These are the same police officers that were pounding on people for disobeying those ridiculous COVID lockdowns back in 2020. I'm not surprised.

[Australian rePublic]

The fact that no body is blaming the nursing home for their disgusting, unacceptable negligence is really surprising

I'd chalk it up to cowardice. Basically, police officers tend to believe they have the right to use extreme force as a prophylactic measure against a small risk of suffering bodily harm.

Or you know, trying to protect the other patients
[/quote]

I have a cat who can get a little bit psycho sometimes and he'll occassionally bite me and grab with both paws and the little fucker will sometimes bunny kick or even chew. I know I could use force against him and he would instantly dislodge and run away, but I don't want to hurt my cat and I don't want him to be afraid of me, so my first resort is to stay still and see if he disengages of his own accord, and if not, a yell will suffice. Absolutely worst case scenario I might whack him with a magazine, but I've never done that and don't expect I'll ever have to. See, I know that the odds of him hurting me bad enough to even need to go get stitches are extremely low and the odds of me ending up in the ER are practically zero.

1. And what the fuck would hitting an armed human being with a magazine achieve? Nothing
2. An armed dementia patient is not a cat and the fact that you even made that comparison shows extreme ignorance. That's nearly as ridiculous as the claim over in the communist thread that people will maintain sewers for free. Okay, it is nowhere that bad, but still, it is ridiculous. I can't understand for the life of me how anyone can compare a fucking cat to a dementia patient, but since you did make that comparison:
3. Yea, and let me know what happens when your cat has access to a fucking steak knife

But the mentality of a cop is such that "if this cat MIGHT inflict a wound on me that will bleed for a minute and itch for a few days, I am justified in killing it." That's how they operate with animals and people, even children. And there's no other word to describe that mentality but cowardice. You might call it selfishness but while not all selfishness involves cowardice, all cowardice involves selfishness. Cowardice is motivated by the belief that your own well-being is intractably paramount.

Again, a dementia patient is NOT a fucking cat. Why do I need to explain this? Why? Just why?

It's also that they don't even consider the option of taking their time. Imagine if the next time a mentally ill man was walking around with a knife in hand, the police parked their car 10 meters away, rolled down their window just enough to get their voice through, and from behind the locked door of their cop car they just started talking to the guy. If the guy charges, you can always drive away. Imagine if they called up their colleagues and somebody came and put a cold bottle of water down on the street that the guy could drink from. Or if the dude was even half way in touch with reality, they could be like "you're clearly upset right now, do you want a Valium?" And actually fucking give the guy a Valium and then a half hour later he's sitting down and a lot more lucid.

But they don't choose these options because they think if they give somebody a command to put down the knife and get on the ground, they can either obey at once or they can get fucked up. They won't tolerate disobedience even if the person is out of touch with reality. Because besides being cowardly, they are entitled. They can't handle shit that restaurant servers and nurses and teachers handle every day, they can't handle putting up with difficulty.

Dealing with a drunk or a random on crack is very different to dealing with a dementia patient. They don't have any training at all on dealing with dementia patients, and I wouldn't expect them to, I mean, how often would a nursing home be negligent enough to allow a dementia patient access to a knife?

I'd chalk it up to cowardice. Basically, police officers tend to believe they have the right to use extreme force as a prophylactic measure against a small risk of suffering bodily harm.

I have a cat who can get a little bit psycho sometimes and he'll occassionally bite me and grab with both paws and the little fucker will sometimes bunny kick or even chew. I know I could use force against him and he would instantly dislodge and run away, but I don't want to hurt my cat and I don't want him to be afraid of me, so my first resort is to stay still and see if he disengages of his own accord, and if not, a yell will suffice. Absolutely worst case scenario I might whack him with a magazine, but I've never done that and don't expect I'll ever have to. See, I know that the odds of him hurting me bad enough to even need to go get stitches are extremely low and the odds of me ending up in the ER are practically zero.

But the mentality of a cop is such that "if this cat MIGHT inflict a wound on me that will bleed for a minute and itch for a few days, I am justified in killing it." That's how they operate with animals and people, even children. And there's no other word to describe that mentality but cowardice. You might call it selfishness but while not all selfishness involves cowardice, all cowardice involves selfishness. Cowardice is motivated by the belief that your own well-being is intractably paramount.

It's also that they don't even consider the option of taking their time. Imagine if the next time a mentally ill man was walking around with a knife in hand, the police parked their car 10 meters away, rolled down their window just enough to get their voice through, and from behind the locked door of their cop car they just started talking to the guy. If the guy charges, you can always drive away. Imagine if they called up their colleagues and somebody came and put a cold bottle of water down on the street that the guy could drink from. Or if the dude was even half way in touch with reality, they could be like "you're clearly upset right now, do you want a Valium?" And actually fucking give the guy a Valium and then a half hour later he's sitting down and a lot more lucid.

But they don't choose these options because they think if they give somebody a command to put down the knife and get on the ground, they can either obey at once or they can get fucked up. They won't tolerate disobedience even if the person is out of touch with reality. Because besides being cowardly, they are entitled. They can't handle shit that restaurant servers and nurses and teachers handle every day, they can't handle putting up with difficulty.

Is it really reasonable to expect police to risk their safety? It's not like they are getting paid better then people in similarly skilled(lol) work that aren't expected to tolerate potential injuries. And while it is admittedly the fault of policing that it is the case, they aren't given the sort of recognition that firefighters are for the inherent dangers they must accept.

Right now the only real draw to policing is that it's a low skilled job with few consequences for stupidity, incompetence or misconduct. So it's going to attract the sort of people who want a job like that.
If we want a better caliber of police it's time to start paying for that.

You want to pay people adequately for doing unpleasant jobs? Don't let the communists of NationStates find out. They'll just reply "but you wrong bro" by providing a moronic reason, ignore you when you explain why that reason is moronic then parade around about how much smarter they are than you

[Heavenly Assault]

These are the same police officers that were pounding on people for disobeying those ridiculous COVID lockdowns back in 2020. I'm not surprised.

Yeah, it's not like the police didn't use force to uphold the ridiculous Covid lockdowns here in Burger Land. I guess you've also never seen the LiveLeak video of American cops tasing an unarmed old man and him falling down, hitting his head and dying.

[Galloism]

These are the same police officers that were pounding on people for disobeying those ridiculous COVID lockdowns back in 2020. I'm not surprised.

Yeah, it's not like the police didn't use force to uphold the ridiculous Covid lockdowns here in Burger Land. I guess you've also never seen the LiveLeak video of American cops tasing an unarmed old man and him falling down, hitting his head and dying.

Our cops being shitty doesn’t excuse their cops being shitty.

[DRXN]

They left out her history of pouring boiling water down the throat of another patient while they slept, she was unhinged

[Heavenly Assault]

Yeah, it's not like the police didn't use force to uphold the ridiculous Covid lockdowns here in Burger Land. I guess you've also never seen the LiveLeak video of American cops tasing an unarmed old man and him falling down, hitting his head and dying.

Our cops being shitty doesn’t excuse their cops being shitty.

Of course, I'm suggesting I think it's ridiculous that he's implying this is more of an exclusive problem to Australian LE.

[Digital Planets]

I find it laughable

Same here OP, same here.

[Tinhampton]

New South Wales' police commissioner has said not only are there no plans to release the video of the incident but she doesn't even feel like she needs to watch it herself

[Techocracy101010]

I'd chalk it up to cowardice. Basically, police officers tend to believe they have the right to use extreme force as a prophylactic measure against a small risk of suffering bodily harm.

I have a cat who can get a little bit psycho sometimes and he'll occassionally bite me and grab with both paws and the little fucker will sometimes bunny kick or even chew. I know I could use force against him and he would instantly dislodge and run away, but I don't want to hurt my cat and I don't want him to be afraid of me, so my first resort is to stay still and see if he disengages of his own accord, and if not, a yell will suffice. Absolutely worst case scenario I might whack him with a magazine, but I've never done that and don't expect I'll ever have to. See, I know that the odds of him hurting me bad enough to even need to go get stitches are extremely low and the odds of me ending up in the ER are practically zero.

But the mentality of a cop is such that "if this cat MIGHT inflict a wound on me that will bleed for a minute and itch for a few days, I am justified in killing it." That's how they operate with animals and people, even children. And there's no other word to describe that mentality but cowardice. You might call it selfishness but while not all selfishness involves cowardice, all cowardice involves selfishness. Cowardice is motivated by the belief that your own well-being is intractably paramount.

It's also that they don't even consider the option of taking their time. Imagine if the next time a mentally ill man was walking around with a knife in hand, the police parked their car 10 meters away, rolled down their window just enough to get their voice through, and from behind the locked door of their cop car they just started talking to the guy. If the guy charges, you can always drive away. Imagine if they called up their colleagues and somebody came and put a cold bottle of water down on the street that the guy could drink from. Or if the dude was even half way in touch with reality, they could be like "you're clearly upset right now, do you want a Valium?" And actually fucking give the guy a Valium and then a half hour later he's sitting down and a lot more lucid.

But they don't choose these options because they think if they give somebody a command to put down the knife and get on the ground, they can either obey at once or they can get fucked up. They won't tolerate disobedience even if the person is out of touch with reality. Because besides being cowardly, they are entitled. They can't handle shit that restaurant servers and nurses and teachers handle every day, they can't handle putting up with difficulty.

Is it really reasonable to expect police to risk their safety? It's not like they are getting paid better then people in similarly skilled(lol) work that aren't expected to tolerate potential injuries. And while it is admittedly the fault of policing that it is the case, they aren't given the sort of recognition that firefighters are for the inherent dangers they must accept.

Right now the only real draw to policing is that it's a low skilled job with few consequences for stupidity, incompetence or misconduct. So it's going to attract the sort of people who want a job like that.
If we want a better caliber of police it's time to start paying for that.