Calls for violence against LGBTQ people intensify

[Fahran]

Do y’all remember when y’all went through the LGBT+ draft? I think almost all the queer folks wanted to be traded to San Francisco or New York at the time, but of the folks I knew just became based lesbian farmers or Austinites. Sadly, no one wanted to recruit me.

[Fahran]

Being hispanic is an intrinsic trait, being transgender is not.

Both are social constructs with one having a basis in language and culture and the other having a basis in biological and physical characteristics as well as presentation and behaviors.

[Fahran]

Hispanics don't typically try to recruit others into becoming Hispanic.

No, trans people do not do that, but even if they did:

Religions attempt that all of the time.

Should we crack down on religion?

It’s been suggested, but probably not if we’d like to preserve some semblance of an agreeable social order.

I will point out, mostly because it’s of some interest, that all conversations we have on topics like race, gender, ethnicity, or sexual orientation do rely on the assumption that such categories exist and that we’re operating within a particular paradigmatic framework or cultural perspective that gives them meaning. It would not, for example, make much sense to maintain such categories in a Bronze Age context. It’s quite possible one day that the straight or trans or gay people will cease to exist as distinctive groups, even if underlying dispositions and cognition remains, as the cultural context shifts. Then we’ll bully people for liking mayonnaise or liking feet. I do think believing in the existence of trans as a category, while not ideological necessarily, does require accepting a certain perspective that many people just don’t globally.

[Ifreann]

Being transgender is not an ideology. A religion is an ideology. A political philosophy is an ideology. Calling being trans an ideology is like calling "hispanic" an ideology. It makes no sense whatsoever.

Being hispanic is an intrinsic trait, being transgender is not.

What is it, then? Extrinsic?

[Arkhane]

Ah yes, another post attempting to paint a culture war as black and white.

On one side we have the innocent, righteous lgbt democrat heroes fighting for the oppressed victims and seeking to simply live their lives in freedom and altruism vs the evil villainous republican fascist nazis who will stop at nothing to oppress and destroy them because for some reason the world has been more religious and anti-progressive nowadays compared to the utopia it has once been centuries ago when homophobia didnt exist yet.

Sarcasm over.

I remember decades ago being a part of the lgbt community back then and these rightwing paranoid folk were accusing us of a lot of slippery slope fallacies.

I told them "NO, we just want rights in the bedroom and be allowed to love who we want to love. NO, we will NOT start teaching children to be gay or teach them about homosexuality, that's not going to happen. No we will not strip and start parading around the streets and proclaiming to anyone who will listen that we're gay. No we will never force Christian churches to marry us or force christian photographers or bakers to take our photos or bake our cakes, and we will definitely NOT use the law to coerce and force people to accept us, they are free to ignore or hate us. We just want the same rights as people to be left alone and not be harrassed.

17 years later, and now I have nothing to say to assure these people and frankly, I just left the lgbt community, they no longer represent or speak on my behalf and I am near done with this war.

My point is, this isn't as black and white as you guys believe and the reason why homophobia and anti-lgbt sentiment is on the rise isn't because of some cartoonishly evil people simply deciding to push back harder for the sake of being homophobic. Hate doesnt exist in a vacuum, pushbacks happen because most of the time, people are simply done and had enough.

[Necroghastia]

Ah yes, another post attempting to paint a culture war as black and white.

On one side we have the innocent, righteous lgbt democrat heroes fighting for the oppressed victims and seeking to simply live their lives in freedom and altruism vs the evil villainous republican fascist nazis who will stop at nothing to oppress and destroy them because for some reason the world has been more religious and anti-progressive nowadays compared to the utopia it has once been centuries ago when homophobia didnt exist yet.

Sarcasm over.

I remember decades ago being a part of the lgbt community back then and these rightwing paranoid folk were accusing us of a lot of slippery slope fallacies.

I told them "NO, we just want rights in the bedroom and be allowed to love who we want to love. NO, we will NOT start teaching children to be gay or teach them about homosexuality, that's not going to happen. No we will not strip and start parading around the streets and proclaiming to anyone who will listen that we're gay. No we will never force Christian churches to marry us or force christian photographers or bakers to take our photos or bake our cakes, and we will definitely NOT use the law to coerce and force people to accept us, they are free to ignore or hate us. We just want the same rights as people to be left alone and not be harrassed.

17 years later, and now I have nothing to say to assure these people and frankly, I just left the lgbt community, they no longer represent or speak on my behalf and I am near done with this war.

My point is, this isn't as black and white as you guys believe.

It is, actually.

[American Legionaries]

Being hispanic is an intrinsic trait, being transgender is not.

What is it, then? Extrinsic?

Yes.

[Des-Bal]

there's a really good analogy i like to use when people argue this. did you know that left handedness in the US jumped from 3% to 12% after they stopped shaming and hitting people for being so?

it's almost if we stop oppressing people, they feel more comfortable being open about who they are

Another good example is Dissociative Identity Disorder. A pretty rare (and likely not real) disorder caused by intense trauma. Even though it's ostensibly a negative thing a bunch of people online say they have it and talk about how proud they are and how all lf their separate identities are real. Many advocate for increased recognition, or the use of plural pronouns, and complain about how hard it is to live and be understood (while being showered with praise).

People can be suppressed, they can also be confused, they can also lie.

[Arkhane]

Ah yes, another post attempting to paint a culture war as black and white.

On one side we have the innocent, righteous lgbt democrat heroes fighting for the oppressed victims and seeking to simply live their lives in freedom and altruism vs the evil villainous republican fascist nazis who will stop at nothing to oppress and destroy them because for some reason the world has been more religious and anti-progressive nowadays compared to the utopia it has once been centuries ago when homophobia didnt exist yet.

Sarcasm over.

I remember decades ago being a part of the lgbt community back then and these rightwing paranoid folk were accusing us of a lot of slippery slope fallacies.

I told them "NO, we just want rights in the bedroom and be allowed to love who we want to love. NO, we will NOT start teaching children to be gay or teach them about homosexuality, that's not going to happen. No we will not strip and start parading around the streets and proclaiming to anyone who will listen that we're gay. No we will never force Christian churches to marry us or force christian photographers or bakers to take our photos or bake our cakes, and we will definitely NOT use the law to coerce and force people to accept us, they are free to ignore or hate us. We just want the same rights as people to be left alone and not be harrassed.

17 years later, and now I have nothing to say to assure these people and frankly, I just left the lgbt community, they no longer represent or speak on my behalf and I am near done with this war.

My point is, this isn't as black and white as you guys believe.

It is, actually.

Your well reasoned argument is noted. I don't blame you guys, its easier to believe in a good vs evil dynamic than accepting the complex human condition. It's the usual go to approach of our species since ancient times.

[Vassenor]

Ah yes, another post attempting to paint a culture war as black and white.

On one side we have the innocent, righteous lgbt democrat heroes fighting for the oppressed victims and seeking to simply live their lives in freedom and altruism vs the evil villainous republican fascist nazis who will stop at nothing to oppress and destroy them because for some reason the world has been more religious and anti-progressive nowadays compared to the utopia it has once been centuries ago when homophobia didnt exist yet.

Sarcasm over.

I remember decades ago being a part of the lgbt community back then and these rightwing paranoid folk were accusing us of a lot of slippery slope fallacies.

I told them "NO, we just want rights in the bedroom and be allowed to love who we want to love. NO, we will NOT start teaching children to be gay or teach them about homosexuality, that's not going to happen. No we will not strip and start parading around the streets and proclaiming to anyone who will listen that we're gay. No we will never force Christian churches to marry us or force christian photographers or bakers to take our photos or bake our cakes, and we will definitely NOT use the law to coerce and force people to accept us, they are free to ignore or hate us. We just want the same rights as people to be left alone and not be harrassed.

17 years later, and now I have nothing to say to assure these people and frankly, I just left the lgbt community, they no longer represent or speak on my behalf and I am near done with this war.

My point is, this isn't as black and white as you guys believe and the reason why homophobia and anti-lgbt sentiment is on the rise isn't because of some cartoonishly evil people simply deciding to push back harder for the sake of being homophobic. Hate doesnt exist in a vacuum, pushbacks happen because most of the time, people are simply done and had enough.

"We need to just sit down and be quiet and respectable then they will totally leave us alone".

Yeah that's not how this works.

[Vassenor]

It is, actually.

Your well reasoned argument is noted. I don't blame you guys, its easier to believe in a good vs evil dynamic than accepting the complex human condition.

So why don't you show us where Respectability Politics actually works then.

[Des-Bal]

"We need to just sit down and be quiet and respectable then they will totally leave us alone".

Yeah that's not how this works.

"We need to antagonize these people and trust they'll just be cool forever"

That's not how anything works.

[Vassenor]

"We need to just sit down and be quiet and respectable then they will totally leave us alone".

Yeah that's not how this works.

"We need to antagonize these people and trust they'll just be cool forever"

That's not how anything works.

So who is deliberately antagonising people?

[Arkhane]

Your well reasoned argument is noted. I don't blame you guys, its easier to believe in a good vs evil dynamic than accepting the complex human condition.

So why don't you show us where Respectability Politics actually works then.

You're asking me when was the last time the world was at peace and everyone lives in harmony? The answer is never. The question you should ask is, when has the world been marginally at peace? I'll give you a hint, compare the eras of humanity and tell me which era where human rights, progress and freedom has prevailed and improved. And ask yourself WHY being gay or trans today is better than the previous centuries combined.

Here's a hint: Our society has actually improved compared to the previous eras, and the people who wish to disturb that BELIEVES in a good vs evil dynamic instead of it being a grey area.

[Vassenor]

So why don't you show us where Respectability Politics actually works then.

You're asking me when was the last time the world was at peace and everyone lives in harmony? The answer is never. The question you should ask is, when has the world been marginally at peace? I'll give you a hint, compare the eras of humanity and tell me which era where human rights, progress and freedom has existed. And ask yourself WHY being gay or trans today is better than the previous centuries combined.

Here's a hint: Our society has actually improved compared to the previous eras, and the people who wish to disturb that BELIEVES in a good vs evil dynamic instead of it being a grey area.

Because people were willing to go out and fight for those rights rather than sitting there going "but if we rock the boat too hard then it will make people angry".

[Necroghastia]

It is, actually.

Your well reasoned argument is noted. I don't blame you guys, its easier to believe in a good vs evil dynamic than accepting the complex human condition. It's the usual go to approach of our species since ancient times.

It's more well-reasoned then your word vomit.

[Arkhane]

You're asking me when was the last time the world was at peace and everyone lives in harmony? The answer is never. The question you should ask is, when has the world been marginally at peace? I'll give you a hint, compare the eras of humanity and tell me which era where human rights, progress and freedom has existed. And ask yourself WHY being gay or trans today is better than the previous centuries combined.

Here's a hint: Our society has actually improved compared to the previous eras, and the people who wish to disturb that BELIEVES in a good vs evil dynamic instead of it being a grey area.

Because people were willing to go out and fight for those rights rather than sitting there going "but if we rock the boat too hard then it will make people angry".

That's the problem, there was no "gay civil war" where the lgbt community had to go up in arms and defeat the homophobic army, we won our rights through classic activism, open discussion and slowly making the other side understand. And it worked wonders.

[Bradfordville]

Ah yes, another post attempting to paint a culture war as black and white.

On one side we have the innocent, righteous lgbt democrat heroes fighting for the oppressed victims and seeking to simply live their lives in freedom and altruism vs the evil villainous republican fascist nazis who will stop at nothing to oppress and destroy them because for some reason the world has been more religious and anti-progressive nowadays compared to the utopia it has once been centuries ago when homophobia didnt exist yet.

Sarcasm over.

I remember decades ago being a part of the lgbt community back then and these rightwing paranoid folk were accusing us of a lot of slippery slope fallacies.

I told them "NO, we just want rights in the bedroom and be allowed to love who we want to love. NO, we will NOT start teaching children to be gay or teach them about homosexuality, that's not going to happen. No we will not strip and start parading around the streets and proclaiming to anyone who will listen that we're gay. No we will never force Christian churches to marry us or force christian photographers or bakers to take our photos or bake our cakes, and we will definitely NOT use the law to coerce and force people to accept us, they are free to ignore or hate us. We just want the same rights as people to be left alone and not be harrassed.

17 years later, and now I have nothing to say to assure these people and frankly, I just left the lgbt community, they no longer represent or speak on my behalf and I am near done with this war.

My point is, this isn't as black and white as you guys believe and the reason why homophobia and anti-lgbt sentiment is on the rise isn't because of some cartoonishly evil people simply deciding to push back harder for the sake of being homophobic. Hate doesnt exist in a vacuum, pushbacks happen because most of the time, people are simply done and had enough.

You're right that it doesn't happen for no reason. Much of the influence of homophobia in America comes from the evangelical Christian right and their extremely puritanical views of sexual morality. Where it doesn't come from is gay people "taking things too far."

Also I'm afraid I've got some bad news about leaving the LGBT buddy. You can't. If you're gay and you identify as such, you will always be part of the community, especially from the perspective of someone with major homophobia. I had the same feeling as a kid regarding my Jewish identity, and the rise in antisemitism in recent years basically taught me that the people who didn't like me for being Jewish weren't gonna suddenly not see me as Jewish just because I say I don't religiously identify as such. Same thing as with homophobia.

[Fahran]

Your well reasoned argument is noted. I don't blame you guys, its easier to believe in a good vs evil dynamic than accepting the complex human condition.

So why don't you show us where Respectability Politics actually works then.

I mean… the argument in favor of using correct pronouns is arguably all about respectability. It’s been a great advantage to and a deliberate strategy of a wide number of groups.

It’s beneficial to behave as a normal, well-adjusted, and innocuous person if you want to gain admission and institutional access within a society. Beyond that, it doesn’t make much sense to request access if you’re going to make yourself outlandish or an outcast. What do you think normalization even is?

Mind you, there are many trans influencers and activists who engage in respectability politics - just as many Jewish and black folks did in the past. And it has worked wonders in the PR department. It won’t work for every issue, but it can be very prudent, effective, and sensible.

[Des-Bal]

You're asking me when was the last time the world was at peace and everyone lives in harmony? The answer is never. The question you should ask is, when has the world been marginally at peace? I'll give you a hint, compare the eras of humanity and tell me which era where human rights, progress and freedom has prevailed and improved. And ask yourself WHY being gay or trans today is better than the previous centuries combined.

Here's a hint: Our society has actually improved compared to the previous eras, and the people who wish to disturb that BELIEVES in a good vs evil dynamic instead of it being a grey area.

Your mistake was engaging with the strawman argument that you're saying the solution is to never by abnormal rather than your actual argument that 1) the goalposts have shifted and 2) forcing others to behave a certain way is always going to irk them.

[Arkhane]

Your well reasoned argument is noted. I don't blame you guys, its easier to believe in a good vs evil dynamic than accepting the complex human condition. It's the usual go to approach of our species since ancient times.

It's more well-reasoned then your word vomit.

You sure are convincing me with all your well reasoned responses. No wonder homophobia is dying down and there is no crisis and people are understanding the lgbt community and willing to hear them out.

[Necroghastia]

Because people were willing to go out and fight for those rights rather than sitting there going "but if we rock the boat too hard then it will make people angry".

That's the problem, there was no "gay civil war" where the lgbt community had to go up in arms and defeat the homophobic army, we won our rights through classic activism, open discussion and slowly making the other side understand. And it worked wonders.

...No, we won our rights through force of law. One of those things you were complaining about.

[Necroghastia]

It's more well-reasoned then your word vomit.

You sure are convincing me with all your well reasoned responses. No wonder homophobia is dying down and there is no crisis and people are understanding the lgbt community and willing to hear them out.

Sorry for just telling it like it is, I guess. Beats making shit up and going into hysterics over pride parades.

[Washington Resistance Army]

Ah yes, another post attempting to paint a culture war as black and white.

On one side we have the innocent, righteous lgbt democrat heroes fighting for the oppressed victims and seeking to simply live their lives in freedom and altruism vs the evil villainous republican fascist nazis who will stop at nothing to oppress and destroy them because for some reason the world has been more religious and anti-progressive nowadays compared to the utopia it has once been centuries ago when homophobia didnt exist yet.

Sarcasm over.

I remember decades ago being a part of the lgbt community back then and these rightwing paranoid folk were accusing us of a lot of slippery slope fallacies.

I told them "NO, we just want rights in the bedroom and be allowed to love who we want to love. NO, we will NOT start teaching children to be gay or teach them about homosexuality, that's not going to happen. No we will not strip and start parading around the streets and proclaiming to anyone who will listen that we're gay. No we will never force Christian churches to marry us or force christian photographers or bakers to take our photos or bake our cakes, and we will definitely NOT use the law to coerce and force people to accept us, they are free to ignore or hate us. We just want the same rights as people to be left alone and not be harrassed.

17 years later, and now I have nothing to say to assure these people and frankly, I just left the lgbt community, they no longer represent or speak on my behalf and I am near done with this war.

My point is, this isn't as black and white as you guys believe and the reason why homophobia and anti-lgbt sentiment is on the rise isn't because of some cartoonishly evil people simply deciding to push back harder for the sake of being homophobic. Hate doesnt exist in a vacuum, pushbacks happen because most of the time, people are simply done and had enough.

"We need to just sit down and be quiet and respectable then they will totally leave us alone".

Yeah that's not how this works.

Afaik there is actually some fairly compelling polling evidence that that is how it works for the average voter. Gay marriage, for example, trended upwards pretty much non-stop after Hodges amongst every demographic (even weekly churchgoers and registered Republicans) and has only recently started to experience some drops in support among those demographics, very plausibly because the LGBT movement has taken the forefront in the culture war and if I'm being blunt it has very bad PR nowadays.

[Des-Bal]

...No, we won our rights through force of law. One of those things you were complaining about.

Working great in Florida.