US Balkanisation - Is it time?

[Trump Almighty]

I honestly wouldn’t mind a two way split in America between Republicans and Democrats. You’ve seen it in the big cities like Portland in Seattle. The riots, the fires, the disrespect for police. There will be two regions. The Conservative states will respect our police, the right to own a weapon, and faithfulness towards our Lord. The Liberal states will bring socialism and decay. Make your pick!

[Necroghastia]

I honestly wouldn’t mind a two way split in America between Republicans and Democrats. You’ve seen it in the big cities like Portland in Seattle. The riots, the fires, the disrespect for police. There will be two regions. The Conservative states will respect our police, the right to own a weapon, and faithfulness towards our Lord. The Liberal states will bring socialism and decay. Make your pick!

Decay is part of my brand, babe.

[Point Blob]

If you're going to Civil War, be sure to covertly sabotage China first. I mean if Murica fragments apart, it wouldn't be long before China decides to just start shopping for land again... so... y'know... clean up that mess at the expense of your own country please.

[Aguaria Major]

I honestly wouldn’t mind a two way split in America between Republicans and Democrats. You’ve seen it in the big cities like Portland in Seattle. The riots, the fires, the disrespect for police. There will be two regions. The Conservative states will respect our police, the right to own a weapon, and faithfulness towards our Lord. The Liberal states will bring socialism and decay. Make your pick!

"Liberals will bring socialism"...



Economically, Democrats are almost identical to Republicans, and liberalism, by definition, is pro-capitalist; all its variants equate "free" markets (including the right of individuals to own means of production for personal benefit at the expense of workers) with political and individual freedoms to some extent. The only self-identified Democrats of note who aren't neoliberals are people like AOC, "the Squad" and Bernie Sanders, and the DNC has demonstrated that it has no intention of giving people like them any power within the party (but none of them, at least in terms of policies or ideas they've advocated for while in office, are socialists either; none of them have called for an end to capitalism/private control of the means of production, or for said means of production to be controlled by a participatory/direct democracy of the workers, i.e., the definition of socialism).

This actually brings me to the real reason behind all the political turmoil in the US: mass frustration with conditions of late-stage capitalism, but no effective outlet for these frustrations, coupled with bought-out politicians on both sides of the aisle lying to the masses about what the causes of everyone's financial problems actually are -

Republicans, like all fascist movements before them, lie to uneducated country folk about already-marginalized groups "destroying white/Western society and masculinity" at the behest of (((Bolshevists/cultural Marxists))), and about democracy being "weak" and "having gone too far" in supposedly "allowing the spread of degeneracy" while actively trying to consolidate as much power as possible within a leviathan state in union with private industry,

and Democrats, like all liberal governments faced with the inevitable outcome of capitalism (that being massive/crippling wealth inequality, monopolization/oligopolization of the economy, the erosion of civil democracy as capitalists bribe their way into total control of the government, and the destruction of individuals' senses of community/belonging, as well as leisure time and access to education among the masses as capitalists pay workers less and less while offering fewer and fewer benefits/time off thanks to industrial consolidation and the subsequent lack of incentive to offer workers anything more than slave wages, all the while more and more services essential to a comfortable, modern life are privatized and thus increasingly only available to the rich. Paradoxically in relation to that last clause, however, the masses are also increasingly bombarded with ever-greater amounts of propaganda which tell them that buying as many increasingly unaffordable consumer goods as possible will make them happy),

lie to civically-minded yuppies that the status quo is actually fine, and that everyone's problems will go away if we just "put the right people in charge", stop being racist (which, in this country specifically, is never going to happen as long as 15% of the population is kept generationally poor, and thus economically desperate, in continued attempts by capitalists to extract cheap labor from them over 150 years after slavery's official end), and maintain infinite growth forever.

With all of that being said: Americans are actually significantly less "polarized" than we all think - pretty much everyone in this country is aware, to some degree, of the fact that capitalists and corporations are at the center of a great deal of our nation's problems.

We're just being fooled into thinking that we are polarized by those very same capitalists, who use their media control to force us into perpetual debate over cultural issues.

If we want US "polarization" to end, then the answer is not Balkanization; as a START, we must:

a) outlaw campaign contributions from any place other than public campaign funds, as well as legal briber- excuse me - "lobbying".

b) tax billionaires out of existence.

c) massively overhaul our anti-trust legislation to prevent oligopoly.

d) nationalize the healthcare and higher education industries, like they do in the social democracies of Europe.

e) guarantee every American the right to housing, food, water, and an amount of money which will guarantee that they never need worry about being able to afford the benefits of modern life again (this is not a new idea, by the way. We had serious national discussions about guaranteeing these rights the last time capitalism plunged the world into chaos and helped facilitate the rise of authoritarianism across the world. After all, necessitous men are the stuff of which dictatorships are made).

f) massively expand the size of the Supreme Court bench, while also making its Justices democratically elected (that is, assuming we don't abolish it altogether).

g) overhaul the Senate to be represented based on population while ending the filibuster rule, and expand the House of Representatives so that each representative does so for no more than 30,000 citizens.

h) end first-past-the-post voting and make the partisan makeup of our legislature represented proportionally.

i) guarantee Americans the right to democracy within the workplace.

j) end our policing and prison systems, as we know them. These do not reduce or deter crime, and serve no purpose other than the extraction of nearly-free labor from the populace.

And if you want argumentative primers for how someone could get Americans to agree on these things being the correct course of action, how about we start with the fact that currently, we're actually not too dissimilar to the authoritarian hellhole of China in how we operate domestically - we are kept in perpetual debt to corporations in union with the government (with said union having effectively ended democracy here), and circumstantially forced by said corporations to work for slave wages at jobs we all hate, while our leaders ensure us that we're the greatest country on earth, and that genocide of minorities and/or infinite population/economic growth will fix everything.

How about we not be like China?

[Primitive Communism]

I honestly wouldn’t mind a two way split in America between Republicans and Democrats. You’ve seen it in the big cities like Portland in Seattle. The riots, the fires, the disrespect for police. There will be two regions. The Conservative states will respect our police, the right to own a weapon, and faithfulness towards our Lord. The Liberal states will bring socialism and decay. Make your pick!

"Liberals will bring socialism"...



Economically, Democrats are almost identical to Republicans, and liberalism, by definition, is pro-capitalist; all its variants equate "free" markets (including the right of individuals to own means of production for personal benefit at the expense of workers) with political and individual freedoms to some extent. The only self-identified Democrats of note who aren't neoliberals are people like AOC, "the Squad" and Bernie Sanders, and the DNC has demonstrated that it has no intention of giving people like them any power within the party (but none of them, at least in terms of policies or ideas they've advocated for while in office, are socialists either; none of them have called for an end to capitalism/private control of the means of production, or for said means of production to be controlled by a participatory/direct democracy of the workers, i.e., the definition of socialism).

This actually brings me to the real reason behind all the political turmoil in the US: mass frustration with conditions of late-stage capitalism, but no effective outlet for these frustrations, coupled with bought-out politicians on both sides of the aisle lying to the masses about what the causes of everyone's financial problems actually are -

Republicans, like all fascist movements before them, lie to uneducated country folk about already-marginalized groups "destroying white/Western society and masculinity" at the behest of (((Bolshevists/cultural Marxists))), and about democracy being "weak" and "having gone too far" in supposedly "allowing the spread of degeneracy" while actively trying to consolidate as much power as possible within a leviathan state in union with private industry,

and Democrats, like all liberal governments faced with the inevitable outcome of capitalism (that being massive/crippling wealth inequality, monopolization/oligopolization of the economy, the erosion of civil democracy as capitalists bribe their way into total control of the government, and the destruction of individuals' senses of community/belonging, as well as leisure time and access to education among the masses as capitalists pay workers less and less while offering fewer and fewer benefits/time off thanks to industrial consolidation and the subsequent lack of incentive to offer workers anything more than slave wages, all the while more and more services essential to a comfortable, modern life are privatized and thus increasingly only available to the rich. Paradoxically in relation to that last clause, however, the masses are also increasingly bombarded with ever-greater amounts of propaganda which tell them that buying as many increasingly unaffordable consumer goods as possible will make them happy),

lie to civically-minded yuppies that the status quo is actually fine, and that everyone's problems will go away if we just "put the right people in charge", stop being racist (which, in this country specifically, is never going to happen as long as 15% of the population is kept generationally poor, and thus economically desperate, in continued attempts by capitalists to extract cheap labor from them over 150 years after slavery's official end), and maintain infinite growth forever.

With all of that being said: Americans are actually significantly less "polarized" than we all think - pretty much everyone in this country is aware, to some degree, of the fact that capitalists and corporations are at the center of a great deal of our nation's problems.

We're just being fooled into thinking that we are polarized by those very same capitalists, who use their media control to force us into perpetual debate over cultural issues.

If we want US "polarization" to end, then the answer is not Balkanization; as a START, we must:

a) outlaw campaign contributions from any place other than public campaign funds, as well as legal briber- excuse me - "lobbying".

b) tax billionaires out of existence.

c) massively overhaul our anti-trust legislation to prevent oligopoly.

d) nationalize the healthcare and higher education industries, like they do in the social democracies of Europe.

e) guarantee every American the right to housing, food, water, and an amount of money which will guarantee that they never need worry about being able to afford the benefits of modern life again (this is not a new idea, by the way. We had serious national discussions about guaranteeing these rights the last time capitalism plunged the world into chaos and helped facilitate the rise of authoritarianism across the world. After all, necessitous men are the stuff of which dictatorships are made).

f) massively expand the size of the Supreme Court bench, while also making its Justices democratically elected (that is, assuming we don't abolish it altogether).

g) overhaul the Senate to be represented based on population while ending the filibuster rule, and expand the House of Representatives so that each representative does so for no more than 30,000 citizens.

h) end first-past-the-post voting and make the partisan makeup of our legislature represented proportionally.

i) guarantee Americans the right to democracy within the workplace.

j) end our policing and prison systems, as we know them. These do not reduce or deter crime, and serve no purpose other than the extraction of nearly-free labor from the populace.

And if you want argumentative primers for how someone could get Americans to agree on these things being the correct course of action, how about we start with the fact that currently, we're actually not too dissimilar to the authoritarian hellhole of China in how we operate domestically - we are kept in perpetual debt to corporations in union with the government (with said union having effectively ended democracy here), and circumstantially forced by said corporations to work for slave wages at jobs we all hate, while our leaders ensure us that we're the greatest country on earth, and that genocide of minorities and/or infinite population/economic growth will fix everything.

How about we not be like China?

When faced with the problem of total systemic paralysis leading to mass apathy, Fascist subversion, and crippling decay the solution is not to preserve that system but change the economic model (because they are in fact intertwined) but rather to abolish that system entirely a rebuild from the ground up with foundations that are free from the structural issues wrought by two centuries of rot.

How you can simultaneously condemn the reformist mindset while advocating a more extreme form of reform is frankly astonishing. We do not need to "improve" the current system because there is no practical way of doing so. We need revolution, not reform.

[Point Blob]

When faced with the problem of total systemic paralysis leading to mass apathy, Fascist subversion, and crippling decay the solution is not to preserve that system but change the economic model (because they are in fact intertwined) but rather to abolish that system entirely a rebuild from the ground up with foundations that are free from the structural issues wrought by two centuries of rot.

How you can simultaneously condemn the reformist mindset while advocating a more extreme form of reform is frankly astonishing. We do not need to "improve" the current system because there is no practical way of doing so. We need revolution, not reform.

Insurrection > Revolution.

But yeah... the whole thing needs burning to the ground. Fun times.

[Great Britain eke Northern Ireland]

It won’t happen, and any cope-fuelled fantasising of it stems entirely from irrational hatred of the United States.

[Primitive Communism]

It won’t happen, and any cope-fuelled fantasising of it stems entirely from irrational hatred of the United States.

There is nothing irrational about hating a global superpower with total immunity to any kind of consequence for it's actions whose nationalist foreign policy has left whole nations in ruin for the pursuit of profit on behalf of megacorporations with a long history of genocide, imperialism, and racial slavery. The United States both as a country and as a symbol is a horrible, sorry affair. Our culture is built upon the oppression, exploitation, subjugation, and extermination of anyone who wasn't white or Christian enough to deserve our sympathy. The USA today remains the single most important pillar that is holding up the global liberal order which has been plundering the global south for centuries and implemented a false peace whereby capital can flow unceasingly to the top and leaving billions destitute in the process.

The United States is the single greatest source of suffering in the world today, and the greatest threat to the safety and well-being of not only it's own citizens but the general population of the world as well. It's not "irrational" to hate that at all.

[Bradfordville]

I honestly wouldn’t mind a two way split in America between Republicans and Democrats. You’ve seen it in the big cities like Portland in Seattle. The riots, the fires, the disrespect for police. There will be two regions. The Conservative states will respect our police, the right to own a weapon, and faithfulness towards our Lord. The Liberal states will bring socialism and decay. Make your pick!

People don't respect the police because the police don't respect the community they're supposed to serve and protect. The police are free to stop abusing their power whenever they're ready, which will probably not be until someone finally does the right thing and hands them a pink slip, or better yet actual criminal charges.

[Bradfordville]

It won’t happen, and any cope-fuelled fantasising of it stems entirely from irrational hatred of the United States.

There is nothing irrational about hating a global superpower with total immunity to any kind of consequence for it's actions whose nationalist foreign policy has left whole nations in ruin for the pursuit of profit on behalf of megacorporations with a long history of genocide, imperialism, and racial slavery. The United States both as a country and as a symbol is a horrible, sorry affair. Our culture is built upon the oppression, exploitation, subjugation, and extermination of anyone who wasn't white or Christian enough to deserve our sympathy. The USA today remains the single most important pillar that is holding up the global liberal order which has been plundering the global south for centuries and implemented a false peace whereby capital can flow unceasingly to the top and leaving billions destitute in the process.

The United States is the single greatest source of suffering in the world today, and the greatest threat to the safety and well-being of not only it's own citizens but the general population of the world as well. It's not "irrational" to hate that at all.

The American people have gone to great lengths to deny that their country has wronged millions and stolen countless lives. We even told ourselves that they "hate our freedom," when what they really hate about us is our hypocrisy and dishonesty.

[Kernen]

There is nothing irrational about hating a global superpower with total immunity to any kind of consequence for it's actions whose nationalist foreign policy has left whole nations in ruin for the pursuit of profit on behalf of megacorporations with a long history of genocide, imperialism, and racial slavery. The United States both as a country and as a symbol is a horrible, sorry affair. Our culture is built upon the oppression, exploitation, subjugation, and extermination of anyone who wasn't white or Christian enough to deserve our sympathy. The USA today remains the single most important pillar that is holding up the global liberal order which has been plundering the global south for centuries and implemented a false peace whereby capital can flow unceasingly to the top and leaving billions destitute in the process.

The United States is the single greatest source of suffering in the world today, and the greatest threat to the safety and well-being of not only it's own citizens but the general population of the world as well. It's not "irrational" to hate that at all.

The American people have gone to great lengths to deny that their country has wronged millions and stolen countless lives. We even told ourselves that they "hate our freedom," when what they really hate about us is our hypocrisy and dishonesty.

You hate our freedom to be hypocrites and liars.

[American Legionaries]

I honestly wouldn’t mind a two way split in America between Republicans and Democrats. You’ve seen it in the big cities like Portland in Seattle. The riots, the fires, the disrespect for police. There will be two regions. The Conservative states will respect our police, the right to own a weapon, and faithfulness towards our Lord. The Liberal states will bring socialism and decay. Make your pick!

People don't respect the police because the police don't respect the community they're supposed to serve and protect. The police are free to stop abusing their power whenever they're ready, which will probably not be until someone finally does the right thing and hands them a pink slip, or better yet actual criminal charges.

Neither of those things will ever happen.

[Hrofguard]

Why are people trying to defund the police so much? Like, have yall seen what happens when the police get defunded so much they can't really do their job?

[Hrofguard]

People don't respect the police because the police don't respect the community they're supposed to serve and protect. The police are free to stop abusing their power whenever they're ready, which will probably not be until someone finally does the right thing and hands them a pink slip, or better yet actual criminal charges.

Neither of those things will ever happen.

I wonder why the police are starting to not care for the people they are supposed to serve and protect. Maybe because
1) Yelling at them and calling scum of the world
2) They just get shot at all the time
3) They are paid so little for the job they do (am also saying Firefighters, Teachers and so many more jobs in this one)
4) People all the time are trying stop the Police from doing their job (usually over the little stuff too)
5) Killing The police in many places in the USA is encouraged or makes the person that is Killing the Boys in Blue a Hero.
6) People are yelling to Defund the Police taking away more of what little pay they usually get

[Juansonia]

Why are people trying to defund the police so much? Like, have yall seen what happens when the police get defunded so much they can't really do their job?

Every police department in the United States is an enemy of fundamental universal rights and the well-being of the populace.

[Primitive Communism]

Neither of those things will ever happen.

I wonder why the police are starting to not care for the people they are supposed to serve and protect. Maybe because
1) Yelling at them and calling scum of the world
2) They just get shot at all the time
3) They are paid so little for the job they do (am also saying Firefighters, Teachers and so many more jobs in this one)
4) People all the time are trying stop the Police from doing their job (usually over the little stuff too)
5) Killing The police in many places in the USA is encouraged or makes the person that is Killing the Boys in Blue a Hero.
6) People are yelling to Defund the Police taking away more of what little pay they usually get

Anti-police sentiment developed as a reaction to abuse and brutality by police, not the other way around.

[Hrofguard]

Why are people trying to defund the police so much? Like, have yall seen what happens when the police get defunded so much they can't really do their job?

Every police department in the United States is an enemy of fundamental universal rights and the well-being of the populace.

Enemy of Fundamental Universal rights and well-being of the populace? So you want Killers, Rapest, Child Molesters, and so many Horrible types of people free and running round because that's what the police try to keep at bay.

[Hrofguard]

I wonder why the police are starting to not care for the people they are supposed to serve and protect. Maybe because
1) Yelling at them and calling scum of the world
2) They just get shot at all the time
3) They are paid so little for the job they do (am also saying Firefighters, Teachers and so many more jobs in this one)
4) People all the time are trying to stop the Police from doing their job (usually over the little stuff too)
5) Killing The police in many places in the USA is encouraged or makes the person that is Killing the Boys in Blue a Hero.
6) People are yelling to Defund the Police taking away more of what little pay they usually get

Anti-police sentiment developed as a reaction to abuse and brutality by police, not the other way around.

let me tell ya a story then (most likely one of the many that is out there) (all of this is real and was on the local news)

There was a Police officer known to be the nicest in his Department. He was Shot 57 Times on the steps of the courthouse by someone that was related to a man that was selling Horrible drugs to kids. The Police officer put this Drug Dealer in jail. He was killed for it. And ya know what people did call the Cop killer a Hero and tried to help the man run away. The police got the Killer and some of the people called the Police the villain. The Killed Police officer had a Newborn and a wife at home who will never see their dad and husband after this event.

So if you were a Police officer and see this happen would you start to try and care more about the people that did this or would you stop caring?

[Juansonia]

Every police department in the United States is an enemy of fundamental universal rights and the well-being of the populace.

Enemy of Fundamental Universal rights and well-being of the populace? So you want Killers, Rapest, Child Molesters, and so many Horrible types of people free and running round because that's what the police try to keep at bay.

Police don't give a shit about most murderers, rapists, child molesters, and other types of horrible people. Their sole job is to protect the State's power and the Bouregoise's wealth. The closest they will ever get to caring about the community is protecting their own.

[Hrofguard]

Enemy of Fundamental Universal rights and well-being of the populace? So you want Killers, Rapest, Child Molesters, and so many Horrible types of people free and running round because that's what the police try to keep at bay.

Police don't give a shit about most murderers, rapists, child molesters, and other types of horrible people. Their sole job is to protect the State's power and the Bouregoise's wealth. The closest they will ever get to caring about the community is protecting their own.

So you are saying that the police don't even care? At that point why would they join up to protect and serve? They could of join up with the local Milita or Extremest group.

If you do not want the police what would you want to do to keep the law and peace?

[Juansonia]

Police don't give a shit about most murderers, rapists, child molesters, and other types of horrible people. Their sole job is to protect the State's power and the Bouregoise's wealth. The closest they will ever get to caring about the community is protecting their own.

So you are saying that the police don't even care? At that point why would they join up to protect and serve?

I'm saying that, on an institutional level, police don't give a shit. As an organisation, their origin in the United States was as slave-catchers, so it's no surprise that police organisations still prioritise the wealthy over the poor. Most police departments have an internal culture that encourages brutality and opressing civillians, and any countercultural positions(restraint, accountability) are opposed strongly (often by violence). While individual officers can join with good intentions, they tend to only last long if they embrace the evils that their career demands.

Many join because they fell for the "protect and serve" bullshit. Many join because notions of "justice" or "the law" allow them to justify or conceal their sadism. Many join because being a cop provides protection from consequences.

If you do not want the police what would you want to do to keep the law and peace?

The law often is a bad thing, and peace is overrated.

[San Lumen]

Anti-police sentiment developed as a reaction to abuse and brutality by police, not the other way around.

let me tell ya a story then (most likely one of the many that is out there) (all of this is real and was on the local news)

There was a Police officer known to be the nicest in his Department. He was Shot 57 Times on the steps of the courthouse by someone that was related to a man that was selling Horrible drugs to kids. The Police officer put this Drug Dealer in jail. He was killed for it. And ya know what people did call the Cop killer a Hero and tried to help the man run away. The police got the Killer and some of the people called the Police the villain. The Killed Police officer had a Newborn and a wife at home who will never see their dad and husband after this event.

So if you were a Police officer and see this happen would you start to try and care more about the people that did this or would you stop caring?

Id like a source for this.

[American Legionaries]

Neither of those things will ever happen.

I wonder why the police are starting to not care for the people they are supposed to serve and protect. Maybe because
1) Yelling at them and calling scum of the world
2) They just get shot at all the time
3) They are paid so little for the job they do (am also saying Firefighters, Teachers and so many more jobs in this one)
4) People all the time are trying stop the Police from doing their job (usually over the little stuff too)
5) Killing The police in many places in the USA is encouraged or makes the person that is Killing the Boys in Blue a Hero.
6) People are yelling to Defund the Police taking away more of what little pay they usually get

Yeah, but they started it.

[Ryemarch]

a) outlaw campaign contributions from any place other than public campaign funds, as well as legal briber- excuse me - "lobbying".

b) tax billionaires out of existence.

c) massively overhaul our anti-trust legislation to prevent oligopoly.

d) nationalize the healthcare and higher education industries, like they do in the social democracies of Europe.

e) guarantee every American the right to housing, food, water, and an amount of money which will guarantee that they never need worry about being able to afford the benefits of modern life again (this is not a new idea, by the way. We had serious national discussions about guaranteeing these rights the last time capitalism plunged the world into chaos and helped facilitate the rise of authoritarianism across the world. After all, necessitous men are the stuff of which dictatorships are made).

f) massively expand the size of the Supreme Court bench, while also making its Justices democratically elected (that is, assuming we don't abolish it altogether).

g) overhaul the Senate to be represented based on population while ending the filibuster rule, and expand the House of Representatives so that each representative does so for no more than 30,000 citizens.

h) end first-past-the-post voting and make the partisan makeup of our legislature represented proportionally.

i) guarantee Americans the right to democracy within the workplace.

j) end our policing and prison systems, as we know them. These do not reduce or deter crime, and serve no purpose other than the extraction of nearly-free labor from the populace.

Hear hear!

I for one doubt these will ever happen in the US, but I would dearly love it if they did!

[Hrofguard]

So you are saying that the police don't even care? At that point why would they join up to protect and serve?

I'm saying that, on an institutional level, police don't give a shit. As an organisation, their origin in the United States was as slave-catchers, so it's no surprise that police organisations still prioritise the wealthy over the poor. Most police departments have an internal culture that encourages brutality and opressing civillians, and any countercultural positions(restraint, accountability) are opposed strongly (often by violence). While individual officers can join with good intentions, they tend to only last long if they embrace the evils that their career demands.

Many join because they fell for the "protect and serve" bullshit. Many join because notions of "justice" or "the law" allow them to justify or conceal their sadism. Many join because being a cop provides protection from consequences.

If you do not want the police what would you want to do to keep the law and peace?

The law often is a bad thing, and peace is overrated.

So wait a sec ya want law is bad whatsoever? Peace is overrated?
About the origins, they were patrol groups not even considered ruly police officers. The Police truly were and around 1838 for the City of Boston. Then one by one City started to follow Boston's Example. I know Jim Crow Laws allowed the Police to be truly an Un-civil Organization for Minorities in the US. But after Martin Luther King Jr. there have been large reforms and laws passed to try and stop the practice. I know There will be Bad apples in the Police department


(Also is there a Forum for this kind of topic I don't want to fill this Defund or Fund the police topic. I know this is about if the US can or will starts Balkanisation or not)