Should Pornography be banned in the US?

[The Black Forrest]

Still closer to bonobos than to rats. Though given that rats get caught in the trap when they get greedy, we're not too different from rats either.

And again, it all comes down to the question of what the alternative to genetic reasoning even is.

For a start, we aren't bonobos.

That’s partially true. Bonobos don’t screw others over for a percentage.

[Stellar Colonies]

Still closer to bonobos than to rats. Though given that rats get caught in the trap when they get greedy, we're not too different from rats either.

And again, it all comes down to the question of what the alternative to genetic reasoning even is.

For a start, we aren't bonobos.

Context

[Mountains and Volcanoes]

Porn sucks and there's a growing body of evidence that it very much is a social ill.

[citation needed]

[Cachard Calia]

No.
Just no. Hot take: porno and prostitution should be legal. Let people do for a living what they want to, as long as it isn't murder or something.

[Ryemarch]

Bonobos don’t screw others over for a percentage.

Ah, I see you're a man of culture as well.

[Barfleur]

Putting aside my views on whether society has a right to regulate adults' media consumption in most cases, I don't really follow the argument that some porn is exploitative and, therefore, all porn should be banned as a result. Of course child porn, human trafficking, lies by producers, and the like are all present, but I cannot imagine banning consensual, adult pornography would make a dent in that. The shady producers would simply move underground/into less restrictive areas, while independent producers who play by the rules (ie, most indepdendent creators) would go out of business. And the people victimized by those shady producers would not stop being victimized. That rubs me the wrong way. A bit like saying, there is a lot of forced labor in commercial fishing (which is sadly true), therefore, we should ban all fishing for profit.

[Diarcesia]

Putting aside my views on whether society has a right to regulate adults' media consumption in most cases, I don't really follow the argument that some porn is exploitative and, therefore, all porn should be banned as a result. Of course child porn, human trafficking, lies by producers, and the like are all present, but I cannot imagine banning consensual, adult pornography would make a dent in that. The shady producers would simply move underground/into less restrictive areas, while independent producers who play by the rules (ie, most indepdendent creators) would go out of business. And the people victimized by those shady producers would not stop being victimized. That rubs me the wrong way. A bit like saying, there is a lot of forced labor in commercial fishing (which is sadly true), therefore, we should ban all fishing for profit.

The funny thing is, in the US, this is the prime argument against gun bans. Although it is backed by the Second Amendment. In porn's case, how well can the First Amendment be invoked?

[Delvian States]

Putting aside my views on whether society has a right to regulate adults' media consumption in most cases, I don't really follow the argument that some porn is exploitative and, therefore, all porn should be banned as a result. Of course child porn, human trafficking, lies by producers, and the like are all present, but I cannot imagine banning consensual, adult pornography would make a dent in that. The shady producers would simply move underground/into less restrictive areas, while independent producers who play by the rules (ie, most indepdendent creators) would go out of business. And the people victimized by those shady producers would not stop being victimized. That rubs me the wrong way. A bit like saying, there is a lot of forced labor in commercial fishing (which is sadly true), therefore, we should ban all fishing for profit.

Finally, a voice of reason. Government is an inferior tool, at least when it comes to bans. Sensible regulation, partially already in place from within, just imperfectly, would work well with basic therapy and other public health and awareness services. Treat it as a public health issue, not a law enforcement approach.

[Dylar]

Not all studios are reputable. Not all of them care about verifying age. And that’s just one of the regulations mentioned that are needed.

It’s already the law I think.

"age verification" now is literally just a "click on this box that says you're 18 to enter." At least make all porn be put behind a paywall to prevent kids from accessing it. doesn't even have to be an expensive membership, like $1 a month or something so that even in the event that little Timmy gets his hands on his parents' credit card, his parents can find out if he's been looking at something he's not supposed to just by looking at their credit card statements.

[Barfleur]

Finally, a voice of reason. Government is an inferior tool, at least when it comes to bans. Sensible regulation, partially already in place from within, just imperfectly, would work well with basic therapy and other public health and awareness services. Treat it as a public health issue, not a law enforcement approach.

Honestly agree. I think once more people agree that addiction to porn is (1) a genuine thing, and (2) not something that should be laughed at, more efforts will be made to allow people addicted to porn to reach out and get help. I also think tightening regulations on porn producers would go a long way towards reducing exploitation of performers.

Putting aside my views on whether society has a right to regulate adults' media consumption in most cases, I don't really follow the argument that some porn is exploitative and, therefore, all porn should be banned as a result. Of course child porn, human trafficking, lies by producers, and the like are all present, but I cannot imagine banning consensual, adult pornography would make a dent in that. The shady producers would simply move underground/into less restrictive areas, while independent producers who play by the rules (ie, most indepdendent creators) would go out of business. And the people victimized by those shady producers would not stop being victimized. That rubs me the wrong way. A bit like saying, there is a lot of forced labor in commercial fishing (which is sadly true), therefore, we should ban all fishing for profit.

The funny thing is, in the US, this is the prime argument against gun bans. Although it is backed by the Second Amendment. In porn's case, how well can the First Amendment be invoked?

In the US, private possession of porn is protected speech (note that this does not apply to child porn).

[The Black Forrest]

Ever since I posted this, I've seen the thread take off so much so that I couldn't read it all. When i originally started this thread, my goal was to argue against porn from the standpoint that it propagates human trafficking and sex abuse, not from a religious standpoint.

The problem was starting with the word pornography when you wanted to talk about human trafficking and sex abuse.

Porn is a word that has ben used and abused by people. Especially religious people.

Porn doesn’t lead to acceptance of human sex trafficking and sex abuse. Maybe a by product? It’s the gateway argument as with drugs. Pot is the gateway drug. You smoke and you will be doing heroin in no time.

Most posters have ignored this, however. I was originally going to leave the thread alone. However, I have seen many posters proudly claim to be atheist, while throwing around terms such as "right" and "wrong". Tell me, if you are an atheist, how could you have any sense of right and wrong?

Religion isn’t the creator of the concepts of right and wrong. They simply dictated as part of the rules of religion.

If this planet was randomly created after the Big Bang and we are just evolved monkeys along with millions of other species on the planet, where does morality come from?

Actually evolution involved apes. Monkeys split off awhile before.

Morality is a human concept. Why is it you have apes who are in a mating cycle and yet don’t force it with their daughters (saw that with a male Gorilla in a zoo once). He had the urge as he would try to signal and yet stopped. How do you explain that without applying a human condition them>

If you say that morality is just a social structure, then there shouldn't be anything wrong if so-called "human rights" are violated.

It is a social structure. Just like the rule of law. Are laws moral?

[Unmet Player]

Ever since I posted this, I've seen the thread take off so much so that I couldn't read it all. When i originally started this thread, my goal was to argue against porn from the standpoint that it propagates human trafficking and sex abuse, not from a religious standpoint.

The problem was starting with the word pornography when you wanted to talk about human trafficking and sex abuse.

Porn is a word that has ben used and abused by people. Especially religious people.

Porn doesn’t lead to acceptance of human sex trafficking and sex abuse. Maybe a by product? It’s the gateway argument as with drugs. Pot is the gateway drug. You smoke and you will be doing heroin in no time.

Most posters have ignored this, however. I was originally going to leave the thread alone. However, I have seen many posters proudly claim to be atheist, while throwing around terms such as "right" and "wrong". Tell me, if you are an atheist, how could you have any sense of right and wrong?

Religion isn’t the creator of the concepts of right and wrong. They simply dictated as part of the rules of religion.

If this planet was randomly created after the Big Bang and we are just evolved monkeys along with millions of other species on the planet, where does morality come from?

Actually evolution involved apes. Monkeys split off awhile before.

Morality is a human concept. Why is it you have apes who are in a mating cycle and yet don’t force it with their daughters (saw that with a male Gorilla in a zoo once). He had the urge as he would try to signal and yet stopped. How do you explain that without applying a human condition them>

If you say that morality is just a social structure, then there shouldn't be anything wrong if so-called "human rights" are violated.

It is a social structure. Just like the rule of law. Are laws moral?

Over exsposure to porn, especially violent porn, desensitizes its viewers to sexual violence.
https://meaww.com/violence-against-wome ... sion-women
https://www.thestar.com/news/insight/20 ... women.html

[Pangurstan]

No.
Just no. Hot take: porno and prostitution should be legal. Let people do for a living what they want to, as long as it isn't murder or something.

what about child labor?

[Trans-Mississippi]

It probably isn't possible to ban and is pretty anti-freedom to do so. But pornography is so advertised and encouraged in today's society and it really shouldn't be. The overexposure of sexual themes and pornography is damaging the youth.

[Emotional Support Crocodile]

Given the porn industry's track record of technological innovation, I imagine they will pioneer replacing actors with AI. It will remove harm to performers by making them out of a job. I also expect them to be able to A B test their way to more compelling and addictive porn for some people, increasing harm in a different direction. It will also create some difficult legal wrangling.

[Unmet Player]

Given the porn industry's track record of technological innovation, I imagine they will pioneer replacing actors with AI. It will remove harm to performers by making them out of a job. I also expect them to be able to A B test their way to more compelling and addictive porn for some people, increasing harm in a different direction. It will also create some difficult legal wrangling.

Source?

[GuessTheAltAccount]

The tropes are, to some extent, associated.

And yet, in some ways are polar opposites. If there is even a kernel of truth to the notion that white women prefer black men; whether for shallow reasons or other ones; holding white women back from mating with black men would itself have been a form of aggression.

By comparison, when one speculates (albeit only in the abstract) that girls may prefer "bad boys" regardless of his or her race, others argue she has no obligation to resist that preference no matter what behaviours this may incentivize in the boys. (To be fair, determining what "bad" traits women find attractive and deterring them on a societal level seems more pragmatic than asking individuals to put society's interests over their own.)

(Yes, I'm aware "niceguyism" and anti-miscegenation rhetoric superficially!resemble each other. No, not everyone who bought into "niceguyism's" narratives pictured a black man as said "bad boy.")

The common vein here is that black sexuality is threatening, and that trope exists from a fairly early period, even before the publication of books like The Birth of a Nation or the often misunderstood Mandingo, both authored and published by white men. The exact form that threat takes has varied, but I do not believe we arrive at modern tropes without the preexisting history of racism, fetishization, dehumanization, and objectification - something which, per my article, impacts black women as well, albeit in different ways.

Again, all stereotypes that can be portrayed in different contexts.

That's difficult to quantify given how institutional racism and institutional sexism work. In general, my own perspective is that women contribute about half of the perpetuation of patriarchy in modern society, but, again, more careful authors do not resort to blaming all men even when they assert (somewhat wrongly in my opinion) that men enjoy disproportionate power in this respect.

Power in what sense? Financial power? Legal authority?

Even all that financial or legal power might not make a guy feel powerful if he still feels emotionally compelled to use it on behalf of his wife. Feminist narratives of this one always seem to downplay social power. There are sex strikes too, and that's just counting sexual pleasure before you get into the emotional pleasures a guy craves from his GF too.

They're instrumental in perpetuating the male gaze and the content they produce can and does shape the appetites of their audience. We know this because studies suggest as much.

Which particular studies, and what sorts of methodologies do they use? You're the first one to even claim studies back up your point. Everyone else to whom the "they're only responding to consumer demand" narrative is given usually ignores it.

As well, if "prostitutes are just responding to consumer demand" is reason enough to leave them unprosecutable while the customers who drive demand go to prison (might you, I think neither should be prosecuted, but that's beside the point), why does the same standard not apply to directors?

And that's not solely true of pornographic content. The Queen's Gambit, for instance, sparked a revival in public enthusiasm for chess as an example.

I'm sure something as trivial as one's tastes in hobbies can easily be ignited by TV as the spark when the fuel was already there. That's still a bit distinct from one's worldview itself.

Why are you dismissing the best evidence we have available in favor of arguing, with no evidence, that women watch porn as much as men?

What evidence? You didn't mention any, and you also argued that men are the primary consumers of porn.

I think porn, as well as your net of information, has led you to place more emphasis on those things than many men or women do.

And yet, somehow, I happen to be fully aware that Lulu from Final Fantasy isn't real.

Maybe, just maybe, women's own rhetoric on these matters in some contexts is the real issue here.

As well, no medium on Earth is more prone to portraying women as nymphomaniacs and men as sometimes unable to keep up as porn. Sure, the occasional anime might show a guy outside of a relationship with a crush on one girl reluctant to accept the apparent advances of another, but only porn shows a guy turning down sex with his own wife, albeit perhaps just so you don't feel too sorry for him when she is portrayed cheating on him. And yet, porn hasn't convinced me women are the hornier sex.

Which other media? And how do you think black feminist socialists would respond to said media?

Not by condoning censorship in response, that's for sure. The answer to speech is more speech.

Not dehumanizing and fetishizing people over the color their skin is better than dehumanizing and fetishizing them over the color of their skin.

We go where freedom of speech carries us. If that is in the direction of more stereotyping, so be it.

Again, this is something that has been studied and commented on extensively. An adult performer is not treated by audiences as a person in so far as they interact with his or her content

How does this compare to other content in which someone is filmed? Or if animated, other content in which someone voice-acts?

It does when I'm articulating a radfem perspective.

The voting public have allowed porn to be mostly legal.

I would like one thread on prostitution where someone does not bring up prison rape.

If that's what you want, create a thread where someone rules out the entire notion of incarceration as a punishment, and narrows it down to fines, probation, community service or house arrest. In the real world, sentencing someone to prison is sentencing them to be raped.

Well, that's not really something I was doing, so...

We can define the voting public. It's doubtful one can define "feminist."

[Kernen]

No.
Just no. Hot take: porno and prostitution should be legal. Let people do for a living what they want to, as long as it isn't murder or something.

Except recreational shooting, apparently... Freedom for certain values of freedom.

If porn and prostitution themselves are harmless, their externalities are not. So, either externalities don't matter, or porn and sex work are on the regulatory chopping block.

[Kerwa]

Given the porn industry's track record of technological innovation, I imagine they will pioneer replacing actors with AI. It will remove harm to performers by making them out of a job. I also expect them to be able to A B test their way to more compelling and addictive porn for some people, increasing harm in a different direction. It will also create some difficult legal wrangling.

Yes. There’s also bound to be a legal battle over AI generated child porn at some point too.

[Kerwa]

No.
Just no. Hot take: porno and prostitution should be legal. Let people do for a living what they want to, as long as it isn't murder or something.

Except recreational shooting, apparently... Freedom for certain values of freedom.

If porn and prostitution themselves are harmless, their externalities are not. So, either externalities don't matter, or porn and sex work are on the regulatory chopping block.

Way more people die from prostitution than semi auto rifles. So it’s a fair point.

[Greater Cesnica]

Porn itself shouldn't be banned. That's dumb. Adults can do in the privacy of their homes what adults want to do insofar as it's not directly harming anyone else.

Now you can make an argument for some the biggest porn sites, which have been caught numerous times hosting child pornography, such as Pornhub. Such sites should be banned, in my view. Exploitative content like this, and a pattern of inaction over many years is unacceptable. Major companies like MindGeek should not be above criminal prosecution.

[Gibraltar-USE]

no it wouldn't matter to me anyway since i'm not american
but if it was banned in the us and i went there on holiday or something i will be arrested

[Greater Cesnica]

no it wouldn't matter to me anyway since i'm not american
but if it was banned in the us and i went there on holiday or something i will be arrested

VPNs are a thing lol

[Fahran]

Not all studios are reputable. Not all of them care about verifying age. And that’s just one of the regulations mentioned that are needed.

It’s already the law I think.

No, It isn’t. The suggestion that legislation be passed on the matter caused MindGeek to freak out and delete a majority of their content, which suggests to me that a lot of it would have not complied with the law in question. The problem isn’t just studios. It’s hosting companies and small content creators too, as well as the consumers. There were also many on NSG, some of them self-proclaimed leftists, who began making the old libertarian argument about how regulations were unenforceable or would destroy the massive monopoly with international reach.

[Fahran]

Genetically speaking, we're 97% rat and 70% single-celled amoeba. A little bit goes a long way.

Still closer to bonobos than to rats. Though given that rats get caught in the trap when they get greedy, we're not too different from rats either.

And again, it all comes down to the question of what the alternative to genetic reasoning even is.

We’re as close to chimpanzees as we are to bonobos and chimpanzees and bonobos are closer to one another than any other living organism. Genetic proximity doesn’t necessarily indicate that organisms fill a similar niche or engage in comparable social behaviors.