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Is safety or freedom better?

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Zhinmja
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Founded: Nov 16, 2022
Ex-Nation

Postby Zhinmja » Mon May 08, 2023 5:17 am

The very question is itself is flawed in its premise.

To make an example:
A universal public healthcare system would be a safety measure, a measure which protects lives regardless of station or precondition. A measure which serves the public good of society and minimizes harm.

Yet at the same time it is a measure of freedom for the exact same reasons. It allows people to live their life to the fullest without fear that they'll have to ration two different types of medicine based on cost. By reducing the expansion of contagious disease and by abolishing the in-network system, it enables increased freedom of movement and freedom of association.

It produces, at once, a society that is in equal parts more safe and more free.

And at once a state which increasingly militarizes and valorizes those institutions which are in theory public servants, a "hard" state with extreme no-tolerance policies with the goal of achieving "safety" is infringing on both freedom and safety. It attempts to supplant broad violence with its own and, more often then not, succeeds precisely at simply increasing overall violence failing to do so.

Fortunately for us, the world isn't so idealistic in how it manifests. There isn't safety without freedom and there isn't freedom without safety.
Last edited by Zhinmja on Mon May 08, 2023 5:29 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Bewaffnete Krafte
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Bewaffnete Krafte » Mon May 08, 2023 7:16 am

Jellian Federation wrote:
Bewaffnete Krafte wrote:Per Climber, there is a 0.2% chance of fatality.


That means for every 1,000 climbers two die

As a benchmark, the average fatality rate for Transport workers is around 0.28%.
Climbing is safer than driving cars as a job.
Last edited by Bewaffnete Krafte on Mon May 08, 2023 7:17 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Neonian Technocracy
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Ex-Nation

Postby Neonian Technocracy » Mon May 08, 2023 7:48 pm

Floofybit wrote:
Neonian Technocracy wrote:safety is best, freedom is a danger for people.

Yup, too much freedom causes harm.

...
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Floofybit
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue May 09, 2023 5:13 am

Neonian Technocracy wrote:
Floofybit wrote:Yup, too much freedom causes harm.

...
don't respond to my messages pls, I don't talk to furries.

Why not?
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Nazi Flower Power
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Postby Nazi Flower Power » Tue May 09, 2023 5:19 pm

You need some of both.
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Vrbo
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Libertarian Police State

Postby Vrbo » Tue May 09, 2023 5:25 pm

Nazi Flower Power wrote:You need some of both.

What if I had no safety and no freedom?
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Nazi Flower Power
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Iron Fist Consumerists

Postby Nazi Flower Power » Tue May 09, 2023 6:00 pm

Vrbo wrote:
Nazi Flower Power wrote:You need some of both.

What if I had no safety and no freedom?


Sounds bad.
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Wallenburg
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Democratic Socialists

Postby Wallenburg » Thu May 18, 2023 1:13 pm

Raynolds wrote:
Vrbo wrote:What if I had no safety and no freedom?

then you will have to find a way out

They would neither be free to do so nor be safe in making such an attempt.
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Techocracy101010
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Ex-Nation

Postby Techocracy101010 » Thu May 18, 2023 2:28 pm

Nazi Flower Power wrote:You need some of both.


unrelated i remember you from a decade ago lol . Sad to see xscapia passed and a few others are gone

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Siimyardo
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Moralistic Democracy

Postby Siimyardo » Thu May 18, 2023 6:07 pm

Sneed's Freedom and Seedom. (Formerly Safe)

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Unitary Guatemala
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Founded: May 18, 2023
Ex-Nation

Postby Unitary Guatemala » Thu May 18, 2023 6:26 pm

Safety, but i do believe people should have have freedom to do whatever they want on their own property.

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Hanafuridake
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Ex-Nation

Postby Hanafuridake » Thu May 18, 2023 6:53 pm

Neither of the two are mutually exclusive, both require the other.
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Elwher
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Capitalizt

Postby Elwher » Fri May 19, 2023 8:29 am

Unitary Guatemala wrote:Safety, but i do believe people should have have freedom to do whatever they want on their own property.


Does that include commercial property they own?
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Celritannia
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Founded: Nov 10, 2010
Left-wing Utopia

Postby Celritannia » Sun May 28, 2023 4:02 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Floofybit wrote:No, everyone will be equal under the society


For a small select few while others live in fear of a totalitarian government taking them away by the secret police.


Port Caverton wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Ah, yes, Nazism.

Believe it or not but authoritarian doesn't mean fascist


Fascism is part in part authoritarianism.

Greater Miami Shores 3 wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Ah, yes, Nazism.

and communism, and this is my one and only comment on this, Peace over and out on this.


Communism is not intended to be authoritarian.
Last edited by Celritannia on Sun May 28, 2023 4:05 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Celritannia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Celritannia » Sun May 28, 2023 4:03 pm

Floofybit wrote:
Neonian Technocracy wrote:...
don't respond to my messages pls, I don't talk to furries.

Why not?


Why should furries have rights in society?

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Floofybit
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Sun May 28, 2023 4:27 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Floofybit wrote:Why not?


Why should furries have rights in society?

Why shouldn't they?
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Celritannia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Celritannia » Sun May 28, 2023 4:29 pm

Floofybit wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Why should furries have rights in society?

Why shouldn't they?

Because they are freaks, considered child molesters and groomers, and are generally loners which is unhealthy for them.
(none of this I agree with, but stating a point).
Last edited by Celritannia on Sun May 28, 2023 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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EuroStralia
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Ex-Nation

Postby EuroStralia » Sun May 28, 2023 4:30 pm

I would rather live in a safe society than one with overley excessive freedoms.

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HISPIDA
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Anarchy

Postby HISPIDA » Sun May 28, 2023 4:30 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Greater Miami Shores 3 wrote:and communism, and this is my one and only comment on this, Peace over and out on this.


Communism is not intended to be authoritarian.

that entirely depends on your definition of both "communism" and "authoritarian", honestly.
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Celritannia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Celritannia » Sun May 28, 2023 4:31 pm

EuroStralia wrote:I would rather live in a safe society than one with overley excessive freedoms.

Who gets to decide what those safeties are?

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Celritannia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Celritannia » Sun May 28, 2023 4:32 pm

Hispida wrote:
Celritannia wrote:
Communism is not intended to be authoritarian.

that entirely depends on your definition of both "communism" and "authoritarian", honestly.

I mean, communism eventually becomes Authoritarianism, but nazism and fascism started off as authoritarian from the get-go.

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Western Theram
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Western Theram » Sun May 28, 2023 4:33 pm

Freedom. People are going to do what they want regardless of its legality. Treat the root cause of the problem and focus on reform. At this point we’re wasting resources for raids for certain substances. Decriminalize drugs and focus in mental health. Many people turn to crime to survive. Whether or not they feel remorse is a different story
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HISPIDA
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Anarchy

Postby HISPIDA » Sun May 28, 2023 4:44 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Hispida wrote:that entirely depends on your definition of both "communism" and "authoritarian", honestly.

I mean, communism eventually becomes Authoritarianism, but nazism and fascism started off as authoritarian from the get-go.

again, depends on your definitions.

the dictatorship of the proletariat is designed to be "authoritarian". it is design to oppress the bourgeoisie for the benefit of the proletariat. to quote lenin:

The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy... ...the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists.


The dictatorship of the proletariat, the period of transition to communism, will for the first time create democracy for the people, for the majority, along with the necessary suppression of the exploiters, of the minority.


Dictatorship is rule based directly upon force and unrestricted by any laws. The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is rule won and maintained by the use of violence by the proletariat against the bourgeoisie, rule that is unrestricted by any laws.


to quote mao:

'Don’t you want to abolish state power?’ Yes, we want to, but not at the present time. We cannot afford to abolish state power just now. Why not? Because imperialism still exists, because reactionaries still exist and because classes still exist.


'You are dictatorial’. My dear sirs, you are right, that is just what we are. The experience of the Chinese people accumulated over several decades teaches us to enforce the people’s democratic dictatorship. We must deprive the reactionaries of the right to speak and let the people alone have that right.


to quote bukharin:

We see now that infringement of freedom is necessary with regard to the opponents of the revolution. At a time of revolution we cannot allow freedom for the enemies of the people and of the revolution. That is a surely clear, irrefutable conclusion.


it is necessary for the proletarian dictatorship to use force and authority to protect the interests of the proletariat, i.e., to use a state. communism does not have the material requirement for a state: it is a classless society, a society that is a direct anathema to the state, a society where a state fundamentally cannot exist. but the dictatorship of the proletariat? that's a proletariat state: the oppression of the minority by the majority.

we shall not apologize for the terror. terror will be necessary in the establishment of socialism, marx claims in that statement, and inevitable.
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Celritannia
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby Celritannia » Sun May 28, 2023 4:50 pm

Hispida wrote:
Celritannia wrote:I mean, communism eventually becomes Authoritarianism, but nazism and fascism started off as authoritarian from the get-go.

again, depends on your definitions.

the dictatorship of the proletariat is designed to be "authoritarian". it is design to oppress the bourgeoisie for the benefit of the proletariat. to quote lenin:

The dictatorship of the proletariat, i.e., the organization of the vanguard of the oppressed as the ruling class for the purpose of suppressing the oppressors, cannot result merely in an expansion of democracy... ...the dictatorship of the proletariat imposes a series of restrictions on the freedom of the oppressors, the exploiters, the capitalists.


The dictatorship of the proletariat, the period of transition to communism, will for the first time create democracy for the people, for the majority, along with the necessary suppression of the exploiters, of the minority.


Dictatorship is rule based directly upon force and unrestricted by any laws. The revolutionary dictatorship of the proletariat is rule won and maintained by the use of violence by the proletariat against the bourgeoisie, rule that is unrestricted by any laws.


to quote mao:

'Don’t you want to abolish state power?’ Yes, we want to, but not at the present time. We cannot afford to abolish state power just now. Why not? Because imperialism still exists, because reactionaries still exist and because classes still exist.


'You are dictatorial’. My dear sirs, you are right, that is just what we are. The experience of the Chinese people accumulated over several decades teaches us to enforce the people’s democratic dictatorship. We must deprive the reactionaries of the right to speak and let the people alone have that right.


to quote bukharin:

We see now that infringement of freedom is necessary with regard to the opponents of the revolution. At a time of revolution we cannot allow freedom for the enemies of the people and of the revolution. That is a surely clear, irrefutable conclusion.


it is necessary for the proletarian dictatorship to use force and authority to protect the interests of the proletariat, i.e., to use a state. communism does not have the material requirement for a state: it is a classless society, a society that is a direct anathema to the state, a society where a state fundamentally cannot exist. but the dictatorship of the proletariat? that's a proletariat state: the oppression of the minority by the majority.

we shall not apologize for the terror. terror will be necessary in the establishment of socialism, marx claims in that statement, and inevitable.


Lenin and Mao did use their influence within their respective communist parties to have the system totalitarian.
Can't say I know much of Bukharin though.

What did Marx and Engles say though?
Last edited by Celritannia on Sun May 28, 2023 4:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Floofybit
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Sun May 28, 2023 4:51 pm

Celritannia wrote:
Floofybit wrote:Why shouldn't they?

Because they are freaks, considered child molesters and groomers, and are generally loners which is unhealthy for them.
(none of this I agree with, but stating a point).

None of this is true
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Pro: Socialism, Authoritarianism, The Right To Life, Environment, Public Services, Government, Equity and Equality, Surveillance, Police, Religion, Pacifism, Fruit
Anti: Capitalism, Liberalism, Abortion, Anarchy, Inequality, Crime, Drugs, Guns, Violence, Fruit-Haters
Religious ace male therian (?) who really, really, really loves fruit.
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Safety & Equality > Freedom
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