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Is safety or freedom better?

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Luna Amore
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Benevolent Dictatorship

Postby Luna Amore » Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:57 am

You need to expand your OP.

Safety or freedom in what context? Driving cars? Beekeeping? Base jumping off highrises? What is your opinion and why?

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The Vooperian Union
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Founded: Dec 11, 2022
Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Vooperian Union » Tue Apr 11, 2023 10:59 am

Luna Amore wrote:You need to expand your OP.

Safety or freedom in what context? Driving cars? Beekeeping? Base jumping off highrises? What is your opinion and why?

The vagueness is intentional. You have the freedom to decide the context.
(I'll still expand it tho.)
Last edited by The Vooperian Union on Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Portzania
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Portzania » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:01 am

The Vooperian Union wrote:In terms of your opinions on freedom/safety, what political figures are closest to your ideals?

Could you expand on that? I don't really get what you mean.
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Storalia
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Storalia » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:03 am

By sacrificing freedom you also sacrifice safety. Tyrannical governments which claim to take steps for security and peace often times have no issue endangering the safety of those they dislike, or those who are inconvenient. There is no safety in tyranny.

...although the obvious answer is that neither extreme is ideal, but my personal preference is significantly towards the safety camp. This is a significantly more nuanced question/answer than a single slider.
Last edited by Storalia on Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:04 am, edited 1 time in total.
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The Vooperian Union
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Postby The Vooperian Union » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:04 am

Portzania wrote:
The Vooperian Union wrote:In terms of your opinions on freedom/safety, what political figures are closest to your ideals?

Could you expand on that? I don't really get what you mean.

Like, what political figure matches your ideals on freedom vs. safety the most? kinda just an optional side question.
Last edited by The Vooperian Union on Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:06 am, edited 1 time in total.
Welcome to the timeline I’m writing!
I’m gonna slowly writing an althistory timeline for Poland starting in 1912, slowly evolving into a Sci-Fi space empire. This is gonna take a while, so be patient. CURRENT YEAR: 1916
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Portzania
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Portzania » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:13 am

I guess then Juan Perón. I don't really like his authoritarian tendencies much, but his stance on laborism, welfare, devotion to protecting the working class, being generally socially progressive, protecting the tradition of his country and being a true patriot to the state at the SAME time really connects with me.
⚔︎The Portzanian Social Republic⚔︎
"My final wish to mankind? Don't let women be the central spokesperson for your ideology, religion, ethics, and....."
*BEEEEEEEEEEP*
Portzania is an underdeveloped nation consisting of an archipelago located in the Mediterranean, near Egypt.
Novidades! | What is a Weeping Flesh Hive? Protect your family. | "It wasn't a hate crime because I loved doing it, officer" Says convicted suspect of Church vandalism. |"Portzania's Violence Map Shows Alarming Trends" - Portzania Reports

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Verkhoyanska
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Conservative Democracy

Postby Verkhoyanska » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:15 am

I honestly think a mix of both is what really does it. You don't want safety but no freedom, or freedom but no safety. Take both in moderation, and you'll have a successful system.
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The Vooperian Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Vooperian Union » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:17 am

Portzania wrote:I guess then Juan Perón. I don't really like his authoritarian tendencies much, but his stance on laborism, welfare, devotion to protecting the working class, being generally socially progressive, protecting the tradition of his country and being a true patriot to the state at the SAME time really connects with me.

I chose Nestor Ivanovitch Makhnov, as his ideals on the state and freedom are great IMO. Also because I'm a makhnovist, which is a branch of anarcho-communism.
Welcome to the timeline I’m writing!
I’m gonna slowly writing an althistory timeline for Poland starting in 1912, slowly evolving into a Sci-Fi space empire. This is gonna take a while, so be patient. CURRENT YEAR: 1916
NS stats given a nice cup of tea and asked to have a good day, but not come back.
You may know me, you may not, but I ALWAYS COME BACK.
Factbooks finally canon!
No, I won't stop trying to turn people into furries.
AnCom genderflux transfem cat furry who is also aroace. My gender is TECHNICALLY girlflux, but I prefer the term femflux. Pronouns are She/Thon.
I WILL take your pronouns. I will NOT give them back.
Pronouns stolen: 1x He/Him, 1x They/Them.
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Gurkland
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Gurkland » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:20 am

I don't get this question because it depends on your definitions of the words, genuine safety and genuine freedom aren't opposite to each others as they enforce each others in theory. For example, freedom include personal autonomy and freedom to enjoy your belongings as you see it without a threat to your safety.

An expression of safety is the right of the government to enforce the law to protect you from fear and violence. However, the real world is much more corrupt and the concept of safety is abused to violate your personal autonomy and freedom using a paternalistic mindset to regulate human behavior, especially if safety is enforced without consent and when the given reason is hypothetical.

So, freedom is definitively more important to be safe from predatory safety motivated by selfless motives and those motives can be endless, such as proposing to outlaw cars to eliminate car accidents and to "keep you safe".

This quote can either means something very good or something very troubling.

On the other hand, freedom is bad only when it's a zero sum situation and your freedom reduce someone'else freedom, and if not, freedom remains a natural right stemming from our own consciousness and your default situation should to be always be free.

When choosing between freedom and safety, always remember that the burden of proof is to the one that want to have more safety when it clashes with freedom. We're all born free, so you always should carefully motivate why safety may be more important in some cases and thus the type of safety that clashes with freedom is not an universal value, unlike freedom itself.
Last edited by Gurkland on Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:21 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Portzania
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Portzania » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:20 am

The Vooperian Union wrote:
Portzania wrote:I guess then Juan Perón. I don't really like his authoritarian tendencies much, but his stance on laborism, welfare, devotion to protecting the working class, being generally socially progressive, protecting the tradition of his country and being a true patriot to the state at the SAME time really connects with me.

I chose Nestor Ivanovitch Makhnov, as his ideals on the state and freedom are great IMO. Also because I'm a makhnovist, which is a branch of anarcho-communism.

Interesting, I've read up on him a bit concerning the Russian Revolution and the power struggle between the socialist factions in the early soviet union. Very interesting beliefs to say the least.
⚔︎The Portzanian Social Republic⚔︎
"My final wish to mankind? Don't let women be the central spokesperson for your ideology, religion, ethics, and....."
*BEEEEEEEEEEP*
Portzania is an underdeveloped nation consisting of an archipelago located in the Mediterranean, near Egypt.
Novidades! | What is a Weeping Flesh Hive? Protect your family. | "It wasn't a hate crime because I loved doing it, officer" Says convicted suspect of Church vandalism. |"Portzania's Violence Map Shows Alarming Trends" - Portzania Reports

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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:29 am

Necroghastia wrote:
Floofybit wrote:Oppression is preferable to death.

What's the point of life if you are prevented from living?

The point, I suspect, is that God wills it.


Bewaffnete Krafte wrote:
The Vooperian Union wrote:The people? Human nature is objectively caring.

Not objectively. Human Nature is objectively self-serving, and violent, as it helped our ancestors continue to live and produce offspring, to continue the species. But in our modern age, that nature is almost entirely useless as most people has at least most of their needs fulfilled, so that nature has mostly been replaced by the altruistic attitude we have when being helpful and caring to others provides more benefit than selfishness.

Humans needed to be altruistic and selfless to continue to live and produce offspring before we established civilisation. If our nature was as selfish and violent as people like to claim then the first humans to get pregnant would have been left behind while the tribe hunted a mammoth and that would have been the end of the us. The only reason we lasted as a species is because we've always been willing to work and sacrifice to take care of each other.
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The Vooperian Union
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Left-wing Utopia

Postby The Vooperian Union » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:43 am

I'm just saying, freedom and anarchy are the solution to the world's problems.
Welcome to the timeline I’m writing!
I’m gonna slowly writing an althistory timeline for Poland starting in 1912, slowly evolving into a Sci-Fi space empire. This is gonna take a while, so be patient. CURRENT YEAR: 1916
NS stats given a nice cup of tea and asked to have a good day, but not come back.
You may know me, you may not, but I ALWAYS COME BACK.
Factbooks finally canon!
No, I won't stop trying to turn people into furries.
AnCom genderflux transfem cat furry who is also aroace. My gender is TECHNICALLY girlflux, but I prefer the term femflux. Pronouns are She/Thon.
I WILL take your pronouns. I will NOT give them back.
Pronouns stolen: 1x He/Him, 1x They/Them.
I am a lightbulb nerd. Ask me your lightbulb related questions.

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Narland
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Anarchy

Postby Narland » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:48 am

The Vooperian Union wrote:Basically, discuss if safety or freedom are better.
(Context: Freedom as in the ability to go about your daily life without oppression, and safety as in protection by the state.
There's not much I can add here, other than that I prefer freedom.

In reference to the adage (used by Ben Franklin and others), "Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety" then of course the choice must be freedom. Liberty temporarily surrendered to despots is rarely if ever returned, and when done so it is begrudgingly with as many strings attached as can be deigned without engendering a legal insurrection from the otherwise law abiding Citizenry.

As an open question I think this is a false dilemma. A moral and well informed self-governing Citizenry practicing civic virtue and dedicated to principles of Liberty and Equality is both free and safe (at least as safe as is possible considering all the other alternatives). The state of the state is shackled from doing mischief upon the people who are the government. The freedom to engage fully in a free and open society whilst adhering to the republican principles of constitutional governance, checks and balances, due process, and limited government, and promoting the democratic principles of maximal liberty allow for the people to work out amongst themselves just much power to grant the state for what if any desired safety. But in a Federal Constitutional Republic as the US is set up to be and wherein the people are the government, why give that precious right to make oneself, one's spouse and family, and one's community safe in their government/governance to the state?

By state it is meant state as distinguished from government in the European sense, and not State as a State of the United States in the American sense.
Last edited by Narland on Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:58 am, edited 4 times in total.

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Royal Frankia
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Father Knows Best State

Postby Royal Frankia » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:51 am

Order, by which freedom and safety are preserved.
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Floofybit
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:54 am

The Vooperian Union wrote:I'm just saying, freedom and anarchy are the solution to the world's problems.

Who's to stop killing. It's guaranteed to happen
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Safety & Equality > Freedom
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Ifreann
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Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:55 am

Floofybit wrote:
The Vooperian Union wrote:I'm just saying, freedom and anarchy are the solution to the world's problems.

Who's to stop killing. It's guaranteed to happen

Who's going to stop the government from killing people?
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Rary
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Inoffensive Centrist Democracy

Postby Rary » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:55 am

Safety is more important, but freedom should be kept in mind.

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Sky Reavers
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Civil Rights Lovefest

Postby Sky Reavers » Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:57 am

Floofybit wrote:Who's to stop killing. It's guaranteed to happen


Murders are guaranteed to happen under any government or it's absense too, unless ya' put everyone into a separate room, which they can't leave and then strap them to walls.
Last edited by Sky Reavers on Tue Apr 11, 2023 11:57 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Floofybit
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Floofybit » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:05 pm

Sky Reavers wrote:
Floofybit wrote:Who's to stop killing. It's guaranteed to happen


Murders are guaranteed to happen under any government or it's absense too, unless ya' put everyone into a separate room, which they can't leave and then strap them to walls.

It'll happen less if there's people constantly keeping you in check.
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Safety & Equality > Freedom
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Portzania
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Portzania » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:07 pm

Floofybit wrote:
Sky Reavers wrote:
Murders are guaranteed to happen under any government or it's absense too, unless ya' put everyone into a separate room, which they can't leave and then strap them to walls.

It'll happen less if there's people constantly keeping you in check.

I'd rather not want a random policeman checking on me in my home all the time every hour.
⚔︎The Portzanian Social Republic⚔︎
"My final wish to mankind? Don't let women be the central spokesperson for your ideology, religion, ethics, and....."
*BEEEEEEEEEEP*
Portzania is an underdeveloped nation consisting of an archipelago located in the Mediterranean, near Egypt.
Novidades! | What is a Weeping Flesh Hive? Protect your family. | "It wasn't a hate crime because I loved doing it, officer" Says convicted suspect of Church vandalism. |"Portzania's Violence Map Shows Alarming Trends" - Portzania Reports

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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:10 pm

Floofybit wrote:
The Vooperian Union wrote:Death is preferable to oppression. No arguments.

Oppression is preferable to death.

Maybe to you.
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Gurkland
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Left-Leaning College State

Postby Gurkland » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:10 pm

Portzania wrote:
Floofybit wrote:It'll happen less if there's people constantly keeping you in check.

I'd rather not want a random policeman checking on me in my home all the time every hour.

This is exactly what could happen if you are under police protection. It is generally a case that happens when the victim has a restricted life because of someone's else criminal actions, like keeping you in check to prevent someone from killing you.

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Portzania
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Psychotic Dictatorship

Postby Portzania » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:11 pm

Gurkland wrote:
Portzania wrote:I'd rather not want a random policeman checking on me in my home all the time every hour.

This is exactly what could happen if you are under police protection. It is generally a case that happens when the victim has a restricted life because of someone's else criminal actions, like keeping you in check to prevent someone from killing you.

Everyone is under police protection in my country at least. But it isn't as intrusive and annoyingly constant like what floofy suggested.
⚔︎The Portzanian Social Republic⚔︎
"My final wish to mankind? Don't let women be the central spokesperson for your ideology, religion, ethics, and....."
*BEEEEEEEEEEP*
Portzania is an underdeveloped nation consisting of an archipelago located in the Mediterranean, near Egypt.
Novidades! | What is a Weeping Flesh Hive? Protect your family. | "It wasn't a hate crime because I loved doing it, officer" Says convicted suspect of Church vandalism. |"Portzania's Violence Map Shows Alarming Trends" - Portzania Reports

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Ifreann
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Iron Fist Socialists

Postby Ifreann » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:12 pm

Floofybit wrote:
Sky Reavers wrote:
Murders are guaranteed to happen under any government or it's absense too, unless ya' put everyone into a separate room, which they can't leave and then strap them to walls.

It'll happen less if there's people constantly keeping you in check.

Quis custodiet ipsos custodes?
He/Him

beating the devil
we never run from the devil
we never summon the devil
we never hide from the devil
we never


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Kernen
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Postby Kernen » Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:12 pm

Floofybit wrote:
Sky Reavers wrote:
Murders are guaranteed to happen under any government or it's absense too, unless ya' put everyone into a separate room, which they can't leave and then strap them to walls.

It'll happen less if there's people constantly keeping you in check.

Who's going to watch the watchmen to keep me safe from them?

Edit: Ifreann, you beat me by seconds.
Last edited by Kernen on Tue Apr 11, 2023 12:13 pm, edited 1 time in total.
From the throne of Khan Juk i'Behemoti, Juk Who-Is-The-Strength-of-the-Behemoth, Supreme Khan of the Ogres of Kernen. May the Khan ever drink the blood of his enemies!

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