American Politics: Indictments Galore

[Shrillland]

Polls are now closed in EDT Florida and CDT Kentucky. And with that, a couple of calls:

Dem KY-Governor: Andy Beshear
GOP KY-SoS: Michael Adams

CDT Florida doesn't really matter since Jacksonville's the sole area of concern tonight.

[Khurkhogur]

I'm not conflating anyone. Sanders gets all kind of criticism and scrutiny from progressives that Clinton didn't get. It doesn't matter if these people settled for Clinton or ardently supported her. What matters is that they attacked him when he was weak and supported her when she was strong. That's all that matters to me.

None of that happened, though. People who criticised Sanders from the left didn't support Clinton. People who supported Clinton weren't attacking Sanders from the left.

"People who criticized Sanders from the left didn't support Clinton" - but it's functionally the same thing. Unless you're ignorant of some basic political realities, the only purpose attacking Sanders would serve is to strengthen Clinton's campaign. That's it. Not even a republican would have any valid practical reason to publicly attack Sanders during the primary.

But that is not the phenomenon you describe, of leftists stupidly attacking the further left candidate and supporting the further right candidate.

I remember seeing shit like that happen in 2016 on places like r/socialism. That happened. I don't know on what scale exactly, but the fact that Jeremy Corbyn was disowned by the Labour party around the same time tells me that it's a wider, serious trend.

Why not? Your rejection of the evidence here is completely arbitrary. These are progressives.

Holding BLM signs does not put someone into the category of "[y]oung, committed to socialism (as they conceive of it - free college and UBI and a bunch of other dumb bullshit), publicly indulge in defying gender norms, adamantly in support of abortion, etc."

No, that pretty much describes the bulk of BLM activists. Often based off of college campuses and generally holding those views. I don't really have a problem with generalizing them because I'd be right more often than not.

They oppose Sanders.

Do they? Seems to me they thought he was a candidate who they had some hope of bringing around to supporting their cause.

Yeahhh, the biggest show of support you could make is hijacking someone's speech and telling them to shut up and listen. They just really wanted him to endorse their movement, that's all. Not kick his campaign in the balls (which they successfully achieved mind you)

Maybe they don't hold influence in the democratic party (although the democratic party does fawn over the BLM movement, so make of that what you will), but they certainly hold some kind of influence. They stormed a stage, rallied a crowd, and made Sanders step aside while they gave their speech. At the very least they exist, which kind of invalidates the whole basis of your point.

The people at that rally are very clearly not the whole section of the progressive movement that you were talking about, who oppose Sanders because he's a man, despite agreeing with all his policies, and who want President Clinton to bomb Iran.

I don't know if you're being disingenuous or wilfully ignorant or what? They're yelling and chanting defiant slogans at Sanders. They're pushing him out of his own speech. They're mobbing him. It's not a show of support, they're shitting on him. I don't recall the BLM movement ever showing up and hijacking a Clinton rally so they could "educate" her.

[Bombadil]

I remember seeing shit like that happen in 2016 on places like r/socialism. That happened. I don't know on what scale exactly, but the fact that Jeremy Corbyn was disowned by the Labour party around the same time tells me that it's a wider, serious trend.

It wasn't far left people who voted right, it was traditional unionists whose prospects were decimated by global outsourcing feeling their governments had done nothing to replace those prospects.

Factory workers in unions can still be quite nationalistic, take away the factories and the unions and you just have nationalism.

[Khurkhogur]

Don't you people get tired of debating Lumen?

It's not a debate, he's just wrong.

[Khurkhogur]

I remember seeing shit like that happen in 2016 on places like r/socialism. That happened. I don't know on what scale exactly, but the fact that Jeremy Corbyn was disowned by the Labour party around the same time tells me that it's a wider, serious trend.

It wasn't far left people who voted right, it was traditional unionists whose prospects were decimated by global outsourcing feeling their governments had done nothing to replace those prospects.
Factory workers in unions can still be quite nationalistic, take away the factories and the unions and you just have nationalism.

I don't see how that relates to animosity for Sanders from the left. Also, to that last point - the welfare state is fundamentally an outgrowth of nationalism. It makes perfect sense that the second refuge for the working classes is nationalism.

[Nazi Flower Power]

I don't know if you're being disingenuous or wilfully ignorant or what? They're yelling and chanting defiant slogans at Sanders. They're pushing him out of his own speech. They're mobbing him. It's not a show of support, they're shitting on him. I don't recall the BLM movement ever showing up and hijacking a Clinton rally so they could "educate" her.

At least some of the individuals who heckled Sanders were antisemites. Some of them later fell out of favor within BLM because they were harassing a Jewish shopkeeper and telling him to go back to Israel.

[San Lumen]

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/amp/arti ... de027748e5

Donna Deegan will be the next mayor of Jacksonville

She will be the cities first woman mayor. This is a gain for Democrats.

[Bombadil]

It wasn't far left people who voted right, it was traditional unionists whose prospects were decimated by global outsourcing feeling their governments had done nothing to replace those prospects.
Factory workers in unions can still be quite nationalistic, take away the factories and the unions and you just have nationalism.

I don't see how that relates to animosity for Sanders from the left. Also, to that last point - the welfare state is fundamentally an outgrowth of nationalism. It makes perfect sense that the second refuge for the working classes is nationalism.

A few people may have heckled Sanders from the far left, perhaps, but they're not the reason why Corbyn or Clinton lost.

[Urkennalaid]

I don't see how that relates to animosity for Sanders from the left. Also, to that last point - the welfare state is fundamentally an outgrowth of nationalism. It makes perfect sense that the second refuge for the working classes is nationalism.

A few people may have heckled Sanders from the far left, perhaps, but they're not the reason why Corbyn or Clinton lost.

Remember when Corbyn was called anti-semetic by both the Right and liberals for criticizng Israel?

But yeah, surely liberals don't fuck over progressives and leftists as soon as they can. It's not like Biden and even FUCKING AOC voted against the recent rail strikes.

I don't know why libs can't admit it.

[Shrillland]

Polls are now closed in Pennsylvania. And another call to make:

GOP KY-Governor: Daniel Cameron

I thought Craft would fare better, but she's in third place at the moment.

[Bombadil]

A few people may have heckled Sanders from the far left, perhaps, but they're not the reason why Corbyn or Clinton lost.

Remember when Corbyn was called anti-semetic by both the Right and liberals for criticizng Israel?

But yeah, surely liberals don't fuck over progressives and leftists as soon as they can. It's not like Biden and even FUCKING AOC voted against the recent rail strikes.

I don't know why libs can't admit it.

Oh oh oh, that's slightly different. Mainstream liberals certainly screw over progressives, I think someone was caught on tape just recently admitting to that strategy. And a few on the very far left will never be happy.

However this happens on the right as well, certainly a lot of right-leaning independents can't stand Trump, and some on the very far right felt betrayed by Trump.

My issue is that those on the far left who may or may not have heckled Sanders were not the reason the left lost in '16, that was due to a convergence of a completely different phenomenon.

[Urkennalaid]

Remember when Corbyn was called anti-semetic by both the Right and liberals for criticizng Israel?

But yeah, surely liberals don't fuck over progressives and leftists as soon as they can. It's not like Biden and even FUCKING AOC voted against the recent rail strikes.

I don't know why libs can't admit it.

Oh oh oh, that's slightly different. Mainstream liberals certainly screw over progressives, I think someone was caught on tape just recently admitting to that strategy. And a few on the very far left will never be happy.

However this happens on the right as well, certainly a lot of right-leaning independents can't stand Trump, and some on the very far right felt betrayed by Trump.

My issue is that those on the far left who may or may not have heckled Sanders were not the reason the left lost in '16, that was due to a convergence of a completely different phenomenon.

Oh yeah, frictions are def starting to happen on the Right. But honestly, the Right will still vote for Trump during the election. and so will the voters. Sure, Desantis is trying, but he'll concede and if he ever does a debate with Trump he will get destroyed. He is not charismatic enough or uses propaganda in his way like Trump does. The other selections aren't even going to be a choice, they're joke canidates.

Meanwhile, the main Dems refuse to ever compromise with their own party. I mean, Fox News is out here calling the Democratic party lizard pedophiles, meanwhile you got CNN having all sorts of republicans on all the time, and used Trump in their Town Hall to bolster their views.

[Umeria]

Polls are now closed in Pennsylvania. And another call to make:

GOP KY-Governor: Daniel Cameron

I thought Craft would fare better, but she's in third place at the moment.

Desantis endorsement kiss of death

[Austra-lia]

Can anyone explain on what's happening with the US debt ceiling and whether there is progress for that?

[Bombadil]

Can anyone explain on what's happening with the US debt ceiling and whether there is progress for that?

June 1st is the deadline, one side will blink.

[Spirit of Hope]

Can anyone explain on what's happening with the US debt ceiling and whether there is progress for that?

The US has promised to pay a bunch of people money, but is running out of money to pay people. In order to pay people the money that is owed to them the Treasury wants to borrow money, but needs a new law to be passed to do this. Between the House, Senate, and President the law to allow borrowing hasn't been passed yet. Estimates are that some time in June the US runs out of money and some terrible things happen if it can't pay people the money that is owed.

People are negotiating, but haven't gotten anywhere yet.

[Corrian]

https://www.firstcoastnews.com/amp/article/news/politics/elections/donna-deegan-will-be-the-next-mayor-of-jacksonville/77-867d6cd1-f9fb-456c-adcb-1ede027748e5

Donna Deegan will be the next mayor of Jacksonville

She will be the cities first woman mayor. This is a gain for Democrats.

Wha? When I looked at this earlier the Republican was looking to win.

[Pizza Friday Forever91]

imao, the gal who spent a bunch of money compared to her opponents got last place.

[Khurkhogur]

I don't know if you're being disingenuous or wilfully ignorant or what? They're yelling and chanting defiant slogans at Sanders. They're pushing him out of his own speech. They're mobbing him. It's not a show of support, they're shitting on him. I don't recall the BLM movement ever showing up and hijacking a Clinton rally so they could "educate" her.

At least some of the individuals who heckled Sanders were antisemites. Some of them later fell out of favor within BLM because they were harassing a Jewish shopkeeper and telling him to go back to Israel.

Generally antisemites in movements like BLM are from deeply intolerant black nationalist groups, usually with far-right leanings when it comes to personal politics.Two young women with dyed hair with a crowd of white supporters are not likely to be Farrakhan acolytes lmao. So in this case, I reject that.

Remember when Corbyn was called anti-semetic by both the Right and liberals for criticizng Israel?
But yeah, surely liberals don't fuck over progressives and leftists as soon as they can. It's not like Biden and even FUCKING AOC voted against the recent rail strikes.
I don't know why libs can't admit it.

They're really obstinate, I just don't get it. Like, I get that I generalize sometimes or I draw some conclusions prematurely but denying that I have a point at all is North Koreaish. "Our great leader has never taken a dump in his life!" That's what they sound like.

[Pizza Friday Forever91]

imao, the gal who spent a bunch of money compared to her opponents got last place.

Lol, imao https://twitter.com/KellyCraftKY/status ... 2501348354

[Bombadil]

imao, the gal who spent a bunch of money compared to her opponents got last place.

Lol, imao https://twitter.com/KellyCraftKY/status ... 2501348354

I'm so surprised a Republican candidate for governor is married to a coal mining billionaire.

Craft married David Moross and then Judson Knight, and has two daughters. She wed Joe Craft in April 2016. A Hazard, Kentucky, native and University of Kentucky College of Law graduate, he is a billionaire coal-mining executive for Alliance Resource Partners, L.P., the second-largest coal producer in the eastern United States.

[Khurkhogur]

Can anyone explain on what's happening with the US debt ceiling and whether there is progress for that?

The US has promised to pay a bunch of people money, but is running out of money to pay people. In order to pay people the money that is owed to them the Treasury wants to borrow money, but needs a new law to be passed to do this. Between the House, Senate, and President the law to allow borrowing hasn't been passed yet. Estimates are that some time in June the US runs out of money and some terrible things happen if it can't pay people the money that is owed.
People are negotiating, but haven't gotten anywhere yet.

All the more concerning because the nonaligned world is dumping the dollar. After Russia's invasion of Ukraine I thought everything they touched turned to shit, but BRICS actually got some middle powers together to do something for once. I remember discussing how a SWIFT ban was a bad idea because it contradicts the free global trade US primacy rests on, and now we're seeing the results of that. Turns out trade and finance are political after all.

[Ifreann]

None of that happened, though. People who criticised Sanders from the left didn't support Clinton. People who supported Clinton weren't attacking Sanders from the left.

"People who criticized Sanders from the left didn't support Clinton" - but it's functionally the same thing. Unless you're ignorant of some basic political realities, the only purpose attacking Sanders would serve is to strengthen Clinton's campaign. That's it. Not even a republican would have any valid practical reason to publicly attack Sanders during the primary.

Americans sometimes seem to have a problem whereby they act like jaded players of a cynical political game, and expect others to do likewise. The problem being that you are not a player in this game. People talking politics online are just that, not political operatives campaigning and trying to use the best messaging to sway the public. People expressing their sincere political beliefs are not playing the game wrong to the detriment of "their candidate".

But that is not the phenomenon you describe, of leftists stupidly attacking the further left candidate and supporting the further right candidate.

I remember seeing shit like that happen in 2016 on places like r/socialism. That happened. I don't know on what scale exactly, but the fact that Jeremy Corbyn was disowned by the Labour party around the same time tells me that it's a wider, serious trend.

Corbyn was the leader of the Labour party from 2015 to 2020, and he resigned that position after poor electoral results following sabotage from the right wing of the party and incessant attacks by Britain's right wing press. So I don't think that your experiences on Reddit are reflective of left wing politics in the Anglosphere generally.

Holding BLM signs does not put someone into the category of "[y]oung, committed to socialism (as they conceive of it - free college and UBI and a bunch of other dumb bullshit), publicly indulge in defying gender norms, adamantly in support of abortion, etc."

No, that pretty much describes the bulk of BLM activists. Often based off of college campuses and generally holding those views. I don't really have a problem with generalizing them because I'd be right more often than not.

You continue to make people up and assume they exist rather than describe real people.

Do they? Seems to me they thought he was a candidate who they had some hope of bringing around to supporting their cause.

Yeahhh, the biggest show of support you could make is hijacking someone's speech and telling them to shut up and listen. They just really wanted him to endorse their movement, that's all. Not kick his campaign in the balls (which they successfully achieved mind you)

This would certainly be the first time that I've seen someone attribute Sanders' defeat in the 2016 primary to BLM disrupting one campaign speech of his. Generally people say he lost because he's too far left or because the DNC had it out for him.

The people at that rally are very clearly not the whole section of the progressive movement that you were talking about, who oppose Sanders because he's a man, despite agreeing with all his policies, and who want President Clinton to bomb Iran.

I don't know if you're being disingenuous or wilfully ignorant or what? They're yelling and chanting defiant slogans at Sanders. They're pushing him out of his own speech. They're mobbing him. It's not a show of support, they're shitting on him. I don't recall the BLM movement ever showing up and hijacking a Clinton rally so they could "educate" her.

They stopped her from speaking for ten minutes at this rally. They crashed this private fundraiser. They went for Bill as well.

[Pizza Friday Forever91]

It seems my city (colorado springs) is to elect an independent over a Republican. But if I am wrong, I am wrong and I am sorry for misleading you if it seems this is not the case.

[Spirit of Hope]

The US has promised to pay a bunch of people money, but is running out of money to pay people. In order to pay people the money that is owed to them the Treasury wants to borrow money, but needs a new law to be passed to do this. Between the House, Senate, and President the law to allow borrowing hasn't been passed yet. Estimates are that some time in June the US runs out of money and some terrible things happen if it can't pay people the money that is owed.
People are negotiating, but haven't gotten anywhere yet.

All the more concerning because the nonaligned world is dumping the dollar. After Russia's invasion of Ukraine I thought everything they touched turned to shit, but BRICS actually got some middle powers together to do something for once. I remember discussing how a SWIFT ban was a bad idea because it contradicts the free global trade US primacy rests on, and now we're seeing the results of that. Turns out trade and finance are political after all.

The US dollar has been slowly declining for decades, though it is still by far the largest reserve currency, and alternates to SWIFT existed before sanctions on Russia. A default would hurt the situation but it is hardly a crisis of the non aligned dumping the dollar right now. BRICS has been talking about not using the dollar, and using their own currencies, for trade for a while now and it hasn't amounted to much besides occasional deals/events.

As a note the dollar currently sits at 59% of foreign reserve currency, the next largest are the Euro at 21% and the Yen at 6%. For trade the dollar sits at around 88% with the Euro at 32%, and the Yen at 16% (numbers add up to more than 100% in trade because you count both outgoing and incoming).