American Politics: The Speaker's Cornered

[Ifreann]

Pretty sure that the simplified tax code that most normal people want is to not have to file taxes every year.

[Elwher]

No, because you never received the money. By buying the insurance you prepaid for the service rendered.

Insurance does not pay for copays. This is money I owe extra because the insurance for that amount is not prepaid. I received that service, which was not prepaid, and incurred a debt to get it.

Is that income?

No, because you did not get any money or cash equivalent.

[Elwher]

Pretty sure that the simplified tax code that most normal people want is to not have to file taxes every year.

That would be the best for the individual, but the law of unintended consequences would quickly kick in.

[Umeria]

Then spending money is negative income. Meaning all you have to do to avoid paying taxes is not have any cash on hand at the end of the year.

If it were simply a year-over-year arrangement, that would be true. However, in order to spend money you must get it and that is the basis of the taxation. Once you have gotten the money, what you do with it does not affect the tax situation.

If I make money and then spend it, I don't have any money now that I didn't have before. So my income is zero under your definition.

[Galloism]

Insurance does not pay for copays. This is money I owe extra because the insurance for that amount is not prepaid. I received that service, which was not prepaid, and incurred a debt to get it.

Is that income?

No, because you did not get any money or cash equivalent.

What is a cash equivalent?

[Ifreann]

Pretty sure that the simplified tax code that most normal people want is to not have to file taxes every year.

That would be the best for the individual, but the law of unintended consequences would quickly kick in.

Consequences such as?

[Galloism]

That would be the best for the individual, but the law of unintended consequences would quickly kick in.

Consequences such as?

Namely a *lot* of people overpaying their taxes, unless we completely reconceive the tax code from the bottom up. And I mean literally lock stock and barrel. Not simplify, destroy and start over.

[Haganham]

Don't threaten me with a good time.

[Galloism]

Don't threaten me with a good time.

Since our income tax code operates as a counter-inflation lever, you better be real good at execution in the shift.

Like, it's not impossible; we can make any system we want to. Whether it's good or not is another question.

[Fartsniffage]

Consequences such as?

Namely a *lot* of people overpaying their taxes, unless we completely reconceive the tax code from the bottom up. And I mean literally lock stock and barrel. Not simplify, destroy and start over.

Just have PAYE. Easy for the vast majority.

[Galloism]

Namely a *lot* of people overpaying their taxes, unless we completely reconceive the tax code from the bottom up. And I mean literally lock stock and barrel. Not simplify, destroy and start over.

Just have PAYE. Easy for the vast majority.

I can only assume that means something different in England than it does here, as how PAYE is commonly practiced here is in relation to student loans, and it's done literally the same way as the standard tax system (with some different thresholds, but functionally it works the same way).

[Fartsniffage]

Just have PAYE. Easy for the vast majority.

I can only assume that means something different in England than it does here, as how PAYE is commonly practiced here is in relation to student loans, and it's done literally the same way as the standard tax system (with some different thresholds, but functionally it works the same way).

Salaried and waged workers have their taxes taken out of their pay by their employer and don't have to file tax returns.

[Narland]

If I had my druthers, I would prefer the US Federal Government be forced by Constitutional Amendment not to exceed 10% of the GDP except in case of war or natural disaster. It would be forced to run on a flat tariff not to exceed 3.5%. It would have discretion to lessen or exempt certain goods, services, or nations. Goods billeted through to other nations would only pay relevant port authority fees. Any excess national debt would be leveed to each state in proportion to their population. Each state would use their tax authorities to gather the revenue as the People through their State legislatures see fit. I am a big proponent of repealing the 16th and 17th Amendments.

[Galloism]

I can only assume that means something different in England than it does here, as how PAYE is commonly practiced here is in relation to student loans, and it's done literally the same way as the standard tax system (with some different thresholds, but functionally it works the same way).

Salaried and waged workers have their taxes taken out of their pay by their employer and don't have to file tax returns.

Oh, well we do that here - we call it income tax withholding - the lack of need to file just applies to almost nobody because most people have at least 2 incomes (or relevant losses), or have deductions or credits their employers don't know about and they have to claim, and neither employer knows the proper tax rate or limitations for a given employee.

(Also, even people who don't need to file should, in order to start the clock on the statute of limitations.)

[Cannot think of a name]

I can only assume that means something different in England than it does here, as how PAYE is commonly practiced here is in relation to student loans, and it's done literally the same way as the standard tax system (with some different thresholds, but functionally it works the same way).

Salaried and waged workers have their taxes taken out of their pay by their employer and don't have to file tax returns.

Taxes are taken out of our checks (if we're not contractors or otherwise 'self employed' but then we have to do the elaborate math at the end of the year to figure out if they took too much or too little. Usually too much so we all get this spring economic stimulus of the money that was taken from us the other 12 months. I bought a junkyard motorcycle with one once.

...in retrospect I feel like you knew this and were just saying that your system is more automated like ours could be for most hourly workers...

[Galloism]

Salaried and waged workers have their taxes taken out of their pay by their employer and don't have to file tax returns.

Taxes are taken out of our checks (if we're not contractors or otherwise 'self employed' but then we have to do the elaborate math at the end of the year to figure out if they took too much or too little. Usually too much so we all get this spring economic stimulus of the money that was taken from us the other 12 months. I bought a junkyard motorcycle with one once.

...in retrospect I feel like you knew this and were just saying that your system is more automated like ours could be for most hourly workers...

It's also worth note that a lot of social policy/welfare is done through the tax system (because of the constitutional limitations on the federal government), and this results in some of these outcomes. Arguably we should probably change this, but it is one of the major contributors to this state of affairs.

[Saiwana]

Namely a *lot* of people overpaying their taxes, unless we completely reconceive the tax code from the bottom up.

Why does the state care about people overpaying on taxes? If only the coffers being full is what matters, couldn't a government that is unscrupulous enough just let people overpay and only focus on people who're underpaying whilst ignoring the people smart enough to do their tax calculations just right?

[Galloism]

Namely a *lot* of people overpaying their taxes, unless we completely reconceive the tax code from the bottom up.

Why does the state care about people overpaying on taxes? If only the coffers being full is what matters, couldn't a government that is unscrupulous enough just let people overpay and only focus on people who're underpaying whilst ignoring the people smart enough to do their tax calculations just right?

I'm not sure. You could be describing the UK, but I'm not familiar enough with their system to know for sure.

In the US, we actually do notify people who leave certain tax credits on the table by not filing if we think they might qualify for them to a certain percentage of probability (the IRS sends out EIC and CTC notices every year to people who they think might qualify for credits but didn't take them).

[Celritannia]

Why does the state care about people overpaying on taxes? If only the coffers being full is what matters, couldn't a government that is unscrupulous enough just let people overpay and only focus on people who're underpaying whilst ignoring the people smart enough to do their tax calculations just right?

I'm not sure. You could be describing the UK, but I'm not familiar enough with their system to know for sure.

In the US, we actually do notify people who leave certain tax credits on the table by not filing if we think they might qualify for them to a certain percentage of probability (the IRS sends out EIC and CTC notices every year to people who they think might qualify for credits but didn't take them).

In the UK, people who overpay do receive a letter that it has occurred and repay you.

[Galloism]

I'm not sure. You could be describing the UK, but I'm not familiar enough with their system to know for sure.

In the US, we actually do notify people who leave certain tax credits on the table by not filing if we think they might qualify for them to a certain percentage of probability (the IRS sends out EIC and CTC notices every year to people who they think might qualify for credits but didn't take them).

In the UK, people who overpay do receive a letter that it has occurred and repay you.

That's actually pretty cool. We send out letters to that effect, but then you have to file to claim it (in order to claim any other income the IRS may not know about and see if you *really* qualify).

I'm guessing they don't do as much social policy via the tax code as we do or, maybe they track eligibility differently.

[Saiwana]

For a government that is truly greedy or without ethics though, wouldn't it be more profitable to let people overpay on tax when that happens but just pocket the difference and not let them know anything? If it is in the end just about getting in more money for politicians and decision makers to play around with?

[The Rio Grande River Basin]

For a government that is truly greedy or without ethics though, wouldn't it be more profitable to let people overpay on tax when that happens but just pocket the difference and not let them know anything? If it is in the end just about getting in more money for politicians and decision makers to play around with?

If you’re trying to be edgy…you’re failing.

[Galloism]

For a government that is truly greedy or without ethics though, wouldn't it be more profitable to let people overpay on tax when that happens but just pocket the difference and not let them know anything? If it is in the end just about getting in more money for politicians and decision makers to play around with?

I'm not sure what you're trying to argue here.

If it's to argue that the US and UK are moral upstanding governments who never did anything wrong... I think sending out notices of overpayment is likely not going to be enough to make that argument.

[Narland]

I'm not sure. You could be describing the UK, but I'm not familiar enough with their system to know for sure.

In the US, we actually do notify people who leave certain tax credits on the table by not filing if we think they might qualify for them to a certain percentage of probability (the IRS sends out EIC and CTC notices every year to people who they think might qualify for credits but didn't take them).

In the UK, people who overpay do receive a letter that it has occurred and repay you.

I have to say the HMRC has been some of the nicest and most polite revenuers out there. It was quite a surprise to get an official mail from after returning to the States just to return appx. £ 200. But I haven't been on the owing end from them, so it might be a bit different if they had wanted 200.

[Saiwana]

Governments taking advantage of some people overpaying is what I'd propose, in that mathematically it works and should pay off a given debt/deficit faster than if only relying on people paying the right amounts and needlessly correcting mistakes that benefit the coffers more than hurt it.