American Politics: Fiscal Cliffhanger

[Pizza Friday Forever91]

How is legalizing gay marriage conservative again?

It's not, I agree with you on that. But still, I maintain that Cuba is a more conservative society than the US for reasons I just laid out. Basically, politics does not dominate public life in Cuba, at least not to the same extent as it does in the US.

I don't think a very conservative society would legalize gay marriage via Referendum, and if you want a look at a very conservative society you have Russia, which is actively making life worse for LGBT people.

[Galloism]

So people from outside the district get to decide who can represent the district.

When you obstruct government yes.

If someone Baker City does not like what someone in Eugene or Portland does too freaking bad. You don't get to hold up the very functioning of government.

So this would be a good referendum to pass in Texas yes?

[Neutraligon]

So people from outside the district get to decide who can represent the district.

When you obstruct government yes.

If someone Baker City does not like what someone in Eugene or Portland does too freaking bad. You don't get to hold up the very functioning of government.

Which shows you do not actually support democracy as you do not respect those districts electing the person they want.

[San Lumen]

When you obstruct government yes.

If someone Baker City does not like what someone in Eugene or Portland does too freaking bad. You don't get to hold up the very functioning of government.

So this would be a good referendum to pass in Texas yes?

Yes. Filibuster instead.

[Khurkhogur]

It's not, I agree with you on that. But still, I maintain that Cuba is a more conservative society than the US for reasons I just laid out. Basically, politics does not dominate public life in Cuba, at least not to the same extent as it does in the US.

I don't think a very conservative society would legalize gay marriage via Referendum, and if you want a look at a very conservative society you have Russia, which is actively making life worse for LGBT people.

Just addressed Russia's conservatism in that last post.

[Neutraligon]

So this would be a good referendum to pass in Texas yes?

Yes. Filibuster instead.

The filibuster would do nothing as the majority party would just break it.

[Galloism]

So this would be a good referendum to pass in Texas yes?

Yes. Filibuster instead.

Just so you know, this would result in democrats being prohibited from reelection instead, as they’re the ones who use quorum rules to block legislation in Texas.

Which you yourself supported by the way.

[San Lumen]

When you obstruct government yes.

If someone Baker City does not like what someone in Eugene or Portland does too freaking bad. You don't get to hold up the very functioning of government.

Which shows you do not actually support democracy as you do not respect those districts electing the person they want.

They are electing the person they want but when that person fails to do the job they are hired to do they deserve to be fired. if you or I refused to show up to work but insisted we still get payed we'd be fired.

for reference here is a map of the referendum results. It passed with 68 percent of the vote and in all but two counties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ballot_Measure_113

Therefore their constituents do not support this stunt of theirs.

[Pizza Friday Forever91]

It's not, I agree with you on that. But still, I maintain that Cuba is a more conservative society than the US for reasons I just laid out. Basically, politics does not dominate public life in Cuba, at least not to the same extent as it does in the US.

The other thing we should remember is that socialist countries often impose progress. For example, the USSR imposed feminist values and women's rights on society, but it never really emerged organically on its own. Today, domestic violence against women is legal in Russia. Same thing goes for race - the USSR was supposedly egalitarian, but the society under it remained bigoted and intolerant. Cuba (or the GDR) legalizing gay marriage could be cases of such imposed values, where the socialist government decides something should be legal (whether that's meant to make them look good internationally or something) but the society actually doesn't take those values to heart.
Throughout the 80s, the gay music scene was mainstream throughout the west. Major male pop stars wore women's clothes on TV and vice versa. Where were those elements in 1980s east Berlin? The point being that there was no popular culture that endorsed those values in the eastern bloc, and the same probably goes for Cuba today.

pretty sure there was a gay music scene in eastern germany albeit it was small iirc.

[Bienenhalde]

Wouldn't replacing single member congressional districts with statewide proportional representation effectively put an end to gerrymandering? You can't really gerrymander if you cannot vote to change the boundaries of legislative districts in your own party's favor.

Of course if you're going to do that why even have it be statewide? The whole advantage to having districts is more local representation and proportional representation.
But if you're getting rid of districts you might as well so something like a nationwide party list. It would definitely do more to promote party diversity.

State-wide proportional representation is a good compromise between allowing more minority or third party representation and still allowing some degree of local representation. Besides, elected representatives from a nationwide party list would require amending the US constitution, but state-wide party lists do not. The constitution as it stands says that representatives in the US House represent states, but it doesn't specify how the states should choose representatives.

[Neutraligon]

Which shows you do not actually support democracy as you do not respect those districts electing the person they want.

They are electing the person they want but when that person fails to do the job they are hired to do you deserve to be fired. if you or I refused to show up to work but insisted we still get payed we'd be fired.

for reference here is a map of the referendum results. It passed with 68 percent of the vote and in all but two counties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ballot_Measure_113

Therefore their constituents do not support this stunt of theirs.

And has been pointed out, nope they are doing the job they were elected to do. Elections will show if constituents do not support those stunts. Well, no they won't because legally those elections cannot occur now.

[Khurkhogur]

The other thing we should remember is that socialist countries often impose progress. For example, the USSR imposed feminist values and women's rights on society, but it never really emerged organically on its own. Today, domestic violence against women is legal in Russia. Same thing goes for race - the USSR was supposedly egalitarian, but the society under it remained bigoted and intolerant. Cuba (or the GDR) legalizing gay marriage could be cases of such imposed values, where the socialist government decides something should be legal (whether that's meant to make them look good internationally or something) but the society actually doesn't take those values to heart.
Throughout the 80s, the gay music scene was mainstream throughout the west. Major male pop stars wore women's clothes on TV and vice versa. Where were those elements in 1980s east Berlin? The point being that there was no popular culture that endorsed those values in the eastern bloc, and the same probably goes for Cuba today.

pretty sure there was a gay music scene in eastern germany albeit it was small iirc.

That's why I used the word "mainstream"

[Ifreann]

So people from outside the district get to decide who can represent the district.

When you obstruct government yes.

If someone Baker City does not like what someone in Eugene or Portland does too freaking bad. You don't get to hold up the very functioning of government.

If someone in Eugene or Portland doesn't like who Baker City elects then too freaking bad.

[San Lumen]

They are electing the person they want but when that person fails to do the job they are hired to do you deserve to be fired. if you or I refused to show up to work but insisted we still get payed we'd be fired.

for reference here is a map of the referendum results. It passed with 68 percent of the vote and in all but two counties: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oregon_Ballot_Measure_113

Therefore their constituents do not support this stunt of theirs.

And has been pointed out, nope they are doing the job they were elected to do. Elections will show if constituents do not support those stunts. Well, no they won't because legally those elections cannot occur now.

The results of the referendum say otherwise.

[Neutraligon]

And has been pointed out, nope they are doing the job they were elected to do. Elections will show if constituents do not support those stunts. Well, no they won't because legally those elections cannot occur now.

The results of the referendum say otherwise.

That's nice...the elections would be a better tell. See if the constituents disapprove enough they will just elect someone else.

[San Lumen]

When you obstruct government yes.

If someone Baker City does not like what someone in Eugene or Portland does too freaking bad. You don't get to hold up the very functioning of government.

If someone in Eugene or Portland doesn't like who Baker City elects then too freaking bad.

Therefore does neither legislator have the right to make laws or pass a budget that affects the other? The fact is Republicans don't like large parts of the agenda the majority voted for and are keeping government from functioning so the legislature can't get anything done.

[Pizza Friday Forever91]

pretty sure there was a gay music scene in eastern germany albeit it was small iirc.

That's why I used the word "mainstream"

I don't think LGBT rights were pretty mainstream in the united states until like, the early 2000s? And funny that you should mention the 80s, the decade when gay people were left to die during the AIDs crisis by Ronald Wilson Reagan.

[Neutraligon]

If someone in Eugene or Portland doesn't like who Baker City elects then too freaking bad.

Therefore does neither legislator have the right to make laws or pass a budget that affects the other? The fact is Republicans don't like large parts of the agenda the majority voted for and are keeping government from functioning so the legislature can't get anything done.

Yep, as is their right as elected members. You are aware you are describing a filibuster right?

[Bienenhalde]

if republicans are unpopular, maybe they should have to change their policies instead of relying on an increasingly rigged system to maintain power. just a thought.

Republicans aren't unpopular.

If they are not unpopular, why would they need to oppose reforms to the electoral system to make it more representative?

[Neutraligon]

Republicans aren't unpopular.

If they are not unpopular, why would they need to oppose reforms to the electoral system to make it more representative?

For the same reason Dems oppose it in places where they hold the majority.

[Galloism]

If someone in Eugene or Portland doesn't like who Baker City elects then too freaking bad.

Therefore does neither legislator have the right to make laws or pass a budget that affects the other? The fact is Republicans don't like large parts of the agenda the majority voted for and are keeping government from functioning so the legislature can't get anything done.

Incidentally, this is an American tradition as old as apple pie.

Lincoln famously jumped out of a window to try and prevent quorum. Twice!

[Neutraligon]

Therefore does neither legislator have the right to make laws or pass a budget that affects the other? The fact is Republicans don't like large parts of the agenda the majority voted for and are keeping government from functioning so the legislature can't get anything done.

Incidentally, this is an American tradition as old as apple pie.

Lincoln famously jumped out of a window to try and prevent quorum. Twice!

I mean, it makes sense as a legal move to prevent quorum if you do not have the votes to maintain a filibuster. Easiest way to change this would have been to change the quorum rule to requiring only majority being present.

[Ifreann]

If someone in Eugene or Portland doesn't like who Baker City elects then too freaking bad.

Therefore does neither legislator have the right to make laws or pass a budget that affects the other? The fact is Republicans don't like large parts of the agenda the majority voted for and are keeping government from functioning so the legislature can't get anything done.

Again, if you don't like the quorum rules in Oregon then move there and campaign for office on a platform of changing them.

[San Lumen]

Incidentally, this is an American tradition as old as apple pie.

Lincoln famously jumped out of a window to try and prevent quorum. Twice!

I mean, it makes sense as a legal move to prevent quorum if you do not have the votes to maintain a filibuster. Easiest way to change this would have been to change the quorum rule to requiring only majority being present.

Perhaps they will do so if 113 is struck down. It would also require a constitutional amendment I think.

[Neutraligon]

Therefore does neither legislator have the right to make laws or pass a budget that affects the other? The fact is Republicans don't like large parts of the agenda the majority voted for and are keeping government from functioning so the legislature can't get anything done.

Again, if you don't like the quorum rules in Oregon then move there and campaign for office on a platform of changing them.

Yep. The funny thing is Oregon seems to require a far larger proportion be present than other states. Most states from what I have seen need a majority present. Oregon requires 2/3rds. Change the rule to requiring majority and now Republicans do not have enough to prevent a quorum.