American Politics: The Speaker's Cornered

[Picairn]

I'm not going to answer. Accurate political taxonomy is a distraction from the issues I care about most.

"Accurate descriptions of ideologies is not something I care about" Lmao seriously. What a joke.

[Necroghastia]

A view that gets totally debunked if one actually looks at the laws in question in an unbiased way. They do absolutely no such thing.

The idea that a trans activist can consider these issues "in an unbiased way" is laughable. Your only standard for if it is a good policy is if it helps trans people in the most surface-level way. So far as I can tell, there is no value or set of consequences considered serious enough to persuade the trans community to oppose any policy that immediately benefits trans people.

So... all you have is some "aww look at the minority trying to advocate for their rights, innit cute" bullshit that does not actually rebut me in any way. Thanks for the confirmation, I thought so but wanted to be sure.
Like you could replace "trans" with black, gay, jewish, and so much more and get something that's been said by reactionaries for centuries. Pathetic.

[The Proud Transphobe]

I'm not going to answer. Accurate political taxonomy is a distraction from the issues I care about most.

"Accurate descriptions of ideologies is not something I care about" Lmao seriously. What a joke.

You'll notice I said "most", and I did actually engage with the argument. Stop being duplicitous.

[Picairn]

You'll notice I said "most", and I did actually engage with the argument. Stop being duplicitous.

You also said "distraction", that's a dismissal. And no, you did not engage with my post, you handwaved it away by saying you put it in the same basket with socialism without elaboration.

Stop lying and dodging the argument.

[The Proud Transphobe]

The idea that a trans activist can consider these issues "in an unbiased way" is laughable. Your only standard for if it is a good policy is if it helps trans people in the most surface-level way. So far as I can tell, there is no value or set of consequences considered serious enough to persuade the trans community to oppose any policy that immediately benefits trans people.

So... all you have is some "aww look at the minority trying to advocate for their rights, innit cute" bullshit that does not actually rebut me in any way. Thanks for the confirmation, I thought so but wanted to be sure.
Like you could replace "trans" with black, gay, jewish, and so much more and get something that's been said by reactionaries for centuries. Pathetic.

You're missing my point. There are other groups with valid rights in play here:

- I've seen trans activists advocate using tax dollars to pay for "affirmative care". This is a ridiculous infringement of property rights.

- Men identifying as trans women have invaded women's spaces, stealing opportunity from them and increasing their risk of being assaulted. The trans community mocks these concerns, essentially with "we're more oppressed than you" and "fuck off, bigot".

- The entire trans movement has made very public their position that minors should have access to "affirming care". Legitimate concerns for the physical and emotional well-being of children are both laughed off like some kind of conspiracy theory and met with hyperventilating outrage: "Genocide!" "Murder!" "Bully!".

- The whole pronoun issue is not only a blatant attack on freedom of speech, but it is incredibly disrespectful. The point of language is to communicate your own thoughts and feelings. We can debate exactly what "man" and "woman" mean all day, but it is ultimately irrelevant when the whole point of a speaker saying "he" or "she" is to communicate how they perceive the person they are referring to. If in my worldview a person is a man, I am going to use "he/him" to describe them. You are free to have your own definitions, but I'll use words according to my definitions. It is impolite to demand that I conform to your definitions.

The point is, there is no line you aren't willing to cross in the name of whatever you consider to be - however arbitrarily - a trans right. That said, insofar as the trans movement wants to extend bodily autonomy to consenting adults, protect trans people from violent attacks (no, "microaggressions" are not violence), and just generally live in society doing their own thing, I'm all for it. Go do your thing, enjoy life, be happy, etc.... I don't care so long as it doesn't mess with me. But it is pretty clear to the rest of us you don't want to just stay in your own lane. You want special privileges at the expense of others' rights and dignity. And that is the problem.

[Urkennalaid]

I don't even know why we're still debating with this person, they legit have no facts and refused to refute anything we've said. They're just being goofy, and we should all ignore em. It'll make them more mad when we don't give em attention.

[Necroghastia]

So... all you have is some "aww look at the minority trying to advocate for their rights, innit cute" bullshit that does not actually rebut me in any way. Thanks for the confirmation, I thought so but wanted to be sure.
Like you could replace "trans" with black, gay, jewish, and so much more and get something that's been said by reactionaries for centuries. Pathetic.

You're missing my point. There are other groups with valid rights in play here:

- I've seen trans activists advocate using tax dollars to pay for "affirmative care". This is a ridiculous infringement of property rights.

Healthcare should be free for all. "Property rights?" Are you a libertarian or something? Lol

- Men identifying as trans women have invaded women's spaces, stealing opportunity from them and increasing their risk of being assaulted. The trans community mocks these concerns, essentially with "we're more oppressed than you" and "fuck off, bigot".

Actually, we mock those concerns with "lol, not a thing that happens."

- The entire trans movement has made very public their position that minors should have access to "affirming care". Legitimate concerns for the physical and emotional well-being of children are both laughed off like some kind of conspiracy theory and met with hyperventilating outrage: "Genocide!" "Murder!" "Bully!".

If you legitimately cared for the physical and emotional wellbeing of children, you would support affirming their identities.

- The whole pronoun issue is not only a blatant attack on freedom of speech, but it is incredibly disrespectful. The point of language is to communicate your own thoughts and feelings. We can debate exactly what "man" and "woman" mean all day, but it is ultimately irrelevant when the whole point of a speaker saying "he" or "she" is to communicate how they perceive the person they are referring to. If in my worldview a person is a man, I am going to use "he/him" to describe them. You are free to have your own definitions, but I'll use words according to my definitions. It is impolite to demand that I conform to your definitions.

It's impolite to... haha, what? If you call a person John, but their name is actually Jim and they try to correct you, are you going to whine and cry about that too? Would you also whine and cry over a feminine-looking cis man or a very butch cis woman correcting you on their pronouns? Give me a break and get over yourself. "Attack on freedom of speech." Fuckin hilarious.

The point is, there is no line you aren't willing to cross in the name of whatever you consider to be - however arbitrarily - a trans right.

what does this even meeeeaaaaan lmfao

That said, insofar as the trans movement wants to extend bodily autonomy to consenting adults, protect trans people from violent attacks (no, "microaggressions" are not violence), and just generally live in society doing their own thing, I'm all for it. Go do your thing, enjoy life, be happy, etc.... I don't care so long as it doesn't mess with me.

A person correcting you on their pronouns or asking that you use certain ones does not mess with you in the slightest, but you throw a didodey fit anyway.

But it is pretty clear to the rest of us you don't want to just stay in your own lane. You want special privileges at the expense of others' rights and dignity. And that is the problem.

Again, "special priveliges," the same bullshit argument that was trotted out for gay people, for black people, and for everyone else that wanted out from under a bootheel. For fuck's sake, get some original material already.

[Ashlak]

Pretty happy about Trump getting indicted. It should happen more often to powerful people in this country.

[Train mountain]

we've always said no one is above the law, now is the chance to prove it.

of course its starting with what appears to be the last serious of laws he has broken in front of god and everybody,

but it does relieve much of the pressure of threats against pursuit of the many more blatant and obvious indifference to criminal law,
person one has committed.

specifically intentional espionage law violations and ultimately an unambiguous attempt to overthrow the nation and its constitution.

[Necroghastia]

we've always said no one is above the law, now is the chance to prove it.

of course its starting with what appears to be the last serious of laws he has broken in front of god and everybody,

but it does relieve much of the pressure of threats against pursuit of the many more blatant and obvious indifference to criminal law,
person one has committed.

specifically intentional espionage law violations and ultimately an unambiguous attempt to overthrow the nation and its constitution.

Yeah, one can only hope that this will be the flutters of a butterfly's wings that end up heralding a hurricane.

[Bombadil]

Pretty happy about Trump getting indicted. It should happen more often to powerful people in this country.

Almost as happy as FOX getting absolutely shafted by the judge who stated their little excuse of 'it's just opinion' is absolute bullshit.

Trump's indictment comes with the slight distaste that's he's going to remain in the headlines when I'd prefer he just crawled under a rock and disappeared.. but the oncoming slew of lawsuits against FOX will be a pleasure to watch.

[The Proud Transphobe]

-snip-

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I could give you a bunch of predictable one-liner responses to all those points, but that's a waste of time. My entire issue with the trans movement is its loud demands that it be able to step on people's toes. I realize your entire worldview can be summarized in terms of categorizing people as victims and oppressors based on race, ethnicity, sex, religion, gender, etc. but just because you categorize someone as a particularly oppressed victim does not justify every single change you can think of that might theoretically benefit them. There is no point at which you say "well actually, society doesn't owe trans people this. We'll be happy off doing our own thing". The ultimate goal goes way beyond "live and let live".

Let me compare this to the rest of the LGBT+ community: The interests of the sexual orientation side of the community (lesbian, gay, bi, etc.) never extended much further than marriage equality and anti-discrimination in work, housing, and the like. The right did try and fear-monger about interference with churches and religious practices, and there were a few incidents around how to resolve conflicts with religious people working in the wedding industry. However, the LGB side of the community was for the most part very deliberate and focused on the main goal, and settled down once they had negotiated a fair social arrangement for themselves. They won, and pretty much ever since then the rest of society has left them alone.

I don't see this same attitude in the trans community, which is combative, demanding, unrestrained, and (frankly) culty. That's not to say trans people don't deserve any fair and equitable social improvements on their behalf - certainly the U.S. could do better in a few areas - but there are a lot of areas activists are pushing to an extreme, in ways that would be totally unique for them (especially in the case of minors). I am all for reducing barriers for adults to get hormones and whatever body modifications they want; I am against puberty blockers for children. The point is to make you equal, not make you superior.

[Necroghastia]

-snip-

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I could give you a bunch of predictable one-liner responses to all those points, but that's a waste of time.

Less of a waste of time than your predictable wall of text, homie.

[Ameriganastan]

Healthcare should be free for all. "Property rights?" Are you a libertarian or something? Lol

Hey, don't lump us good libertarians in with this guy.

[Umeria]

There is no point at which you say "well actually, society doesn't owe trans people this. We'll be happy off doing our own thing". The ultimate goal goes way beyond "live and let live".

I'm sure if you bothered to ask, you would find that this isn't true. For example: do trans people deserve a free pony? I think most would agree that they do not.

[Nirvanaaa]

A view that gets totally debunked if one actually looks at the laws in question in an unbiased way. They do absolutely no such thing.

The idea that a trans activist can consider these issues "in an unbiased way" is laughable. Your only standard for if it is a good policy is if it helps trans people in the most surface-level way. So far as I can tell, there is no value or set of consequences considered serious enough to persuade the trans community to oppose any policy perceived to immediately benefit trans people.

You are truly wise, for what if radical trans activists proposed a law that they could commit intercourse with anyone's mother they please, including yours, a sort of trasgendered prima-nota if you will? The woke mob would absolutely support this, though through contacts I choose not to disclose your maternal figure would actually support such an ordinance

[Vassenor]

The idea that a trans activist can consider these issues "in an unbiased way" is laughable. Your only standard for if it is a good policy is if it helps trans people in the most surface-level way. So far as I can tell, there is no value or set of consequences considered serious enough to persuade the trans community to oppose any policy perceived to immediately benefit trans people.

You are truly wise, for what if radical trans activists proposed a law that they could commit intercourse with anyone's mother they please, including yours, a sort of trasgendered prima-nota if you will? The woke mob would absolutely support this, though through contacts I choose not to disclose your maternal figure would actually support such an ordinance

Jesse what the fuck are you talking about?

[Alcala-Cordel]

-snip-

Yeah, yeah, whatever. I could give you a bunch of predictable one-liner responses to all those points, but that's a waste of time. My entire issue with the trans movement is its loud demands that it be able to step on people's toes. I realize your entire worldview can be summarized in terms of categorizing people as victims and oppressors based on race, ethnicity, sex, religion, gender, etc. but just because you categorize someone as a particularly oppressed victim does not justify every single change you can think of that might theoretically benefit them. There is no point at which you say "well actually, society doesn't owe trans people this. We'll be happy off doing our own thing". The ultimate goal goes way beyond "live and let live".

That pretty much is the ultimate goal. Wanting to be accepted and having the right to bodily autonomy aren't outrageous demands.

Let me compare this to the rest of the LGBT+ community: The interests of the sexual orientation side of the community (lesbian, gay, bi, etc.) never extended much further than marriage equality and anti-discrimination in work, housing, and the like. The right did try and fear-monger about interference with churches and religious practices, and there were a few incidents around how to resolve conflicts with religious people working in the wedding industry. However, the LGB side of the community was for the most part very deliberate and focused on the main goal, and settled down once they had negotiated a fair social arrangement for themselves. They won, and pretty much ever since then the rest of society has left them alone.

That isn't true, even if you do exclude everyone outside a handful of countries where they do have more rights. There might be a few more movies featuring gay people, but they're still regularly harassed, discriminated against, and sometimes killed.

I don't see this same attitude in the trans community, which is combative, demanding, unrestrained, and (frankly) culty.

People say the same thing about all sorts of civil rights movements.

That's not to say trans people don't deserve any fair and equitable social improvements on their behalf - certainly the U.S. could do better in a few areas - but there are a lot of areas activists are pushing to an extreme, in ways that would be totally unique for them (especially in the case of minors). I am all for reducing barriers for adults to get hormones and whatever body modifications they want; I am against puberty blockers for children. The point is to make you equal, not make you superior.

Puberty blockers make people superior?

Unless you believe the existence of trans people is the most interesting or upsetting thing in the world, I don't get why you spend so much time angry about it. There are plenty of other things happening right now.

[Necroghastia]

You are truly wise, for what if radical trans activists proposed a law that they could commit intercourse with anyone's mother they please, including yours, a sort of trasgendered prima-nota if you will? The woke mob would absolutely support this, though through contacts I choose not to disclose your maternal figure would actually support such an ordinance

Jesse what the fuck are you talking about?

No, let him cook...

[Haganham]

Why would you expect the National Socialist German Workers' Party to fall into the American political spectrum?

You...think leftism is a uniquely American political spectrum? What? Leftism and socialism is inherently against right-wing ideology.

In the American Spectrum, authoritarians, totalitarians and collectivists are on the left. Individualists, maximal self-governance, and external governance by contractual obligation is on the right.

Context is important.

[Umeria]

You...think leftism is a uniquely American political spectrum? What? Leftism and socialism is inherently against right-wing ideology.

In the American Spectrum, authoritarians, totalitarians and collectivists are on the left. Individualists, maximal self-governance, and external governance by contractual obligation is on the right.

Context is important.

There were and are Nazi sympathizers in America, where do you think they are on the political spectrum?

[Haganham]

Context is important.

There were and are Nazi sympathizers in America, where do you think they are on the political spectrum?

American nazis would consider actual nazis commie scum, but think, begrudgingly that they have the right ideas about dem jews and gays.
American Nazism is not a sophisticated ideology.

[Umeria]

There were and are Nazi sympathizers in America, where do you think they are on the political spectrum?

American nazis would consider actual nazis commie scum, but think, begrudgingly that they have the right ideas about dem jews and gays.
American Nazism is not a sophisticated ideology.

No, I mean Americans who supported Nazi Germany. Henry Ford for instance; did he consider them commie scum? Where is he on the political spectrum?

[Rakhalia]

One war criminal behind bars -- five (living) former Presidents to go.

[Austria-Bohemia-Hungary]

In the American Spectrum, authoritarians, totalitarians and collectivists are on the left.

in case anybody thought this nonsense had some merit
The first people the Nazis collaborated with were conservatives. The people neonazis collaborate with right now are all conservatives and liberals.

Indeed Donald Trump himself went from neoliberalism to happily drawing support from people bearing swastika flags.